There also seems to be an element of necromancy to the Daimos. Kellhus used the Daimos when he decapitated Malowebi and preserved the head in a concious state.Welcome to the forum, and good point.
Don't think there is a limit, Iyokus seems to command 3 of them in TTT. We get his voice through Zioz, but the other two react to his commands as well.Right, forgot about that.
I was thinking that maybe the lesser Ciphrang was impersonating Ajokli and that maybe everyone misunderstood what was possessing Kelhus.
If not, those passages seem odd (if I'm remembering them correctly). Why is it significant that a Ciphrang snuffed Ioykus? Does that demon show up again later?
Madness's post hit on an something that I had been wondering about (enough so that I finally registered to post).
After the Ajokli reveal with Kellhus I immediately reconsidered his dialogue with that in mind. To me it was clear that the "descending as a hunger" comment was how Ajokli perceived himself through the Inverse Fire, not Kellhus. That fits extremely well with how we've seen Ajokli described previously. As far as I'm concerned we don't know what Kellhus himself would see when looking into the IF. It seems a common opinion on this forum to attribute the above to Kellhus, but I feel that is mistaken and I've wondered why I haven't seen the Ajokli interpretation pushed more often.
And I'm probably getting a little off-topic (apologies), but I'm also curious if Kelmomas happened to look into the IF while he was in the Golden room and what he would see if he did. Presumably he wouldn't be affected the same as others? Considering how the No-God is invisible to the Outside, he wouldn't see himself suffering damnation, correct? If not, then what would he see? Also, would Samarmas still inhabiting Kelmomas change this somehow? If there are two souls in a body then what would that person see in the IF (especially if one of the two is the No-God)? Not sure if we'll ever see this one answered or if its even relevant, just something I was debating with myself.
I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'
After the Ajokli reveal with Kellhus I immediately reconsidered his dialogue with that in mind. To me it was clear that the "descending as a hunger" comment was how Ajokli perceived himself through the Inverse Fire, not Kellhus. That fits extremely well with how we've seen Ajokli described previously. As far as I'm concerned we don't know what Kellhus himself would see when looking into the IF. It seems a common opinion on this forum to attribute the above to Kellhus, but I feel that is mistaken and I've wondered why I haven't seen the Ajokli interpretation pushed more often.
Reply function not working, :(.
I'm not having problem but my membership category is different. Still an issue?
I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'
Don't we get examples of Kellhus doing seemingly magically acts without sorcery before the speech starts to use bold font?
I don't retain page numbers just the text like Kissault(sp? Subon's groom) with the Tractate. Plus not an exact quote.
There's a bit earlier on where Maithanet is talking to Esme about why the Gods would be against them. He points out that during the Apocalypse people cried out to the Gods, and the answers that they got back didn't acknowledge the No-God or his monsters at all. I take this to mean that the Gods can act during the apocalypse, they are just rendered idiotic and bewildered by the fact that the most important thing in the world is hidden from them.
Witness Ajokli walking Cnaiur's body into the tornado, only to see nothing. It wasn't even clear that he saw the Sranc. They just parted around him, right? I'm not a hundred percent clear he saw the Skin Spies, and wasn't just slamming the chorae down on general principle.
The Daimos is not simply about summoning Ciphrang, perhaps we should look more closely at it's metaphysical attributes.
Ethos anthropoi daimon, "character is fate"
This influential quote by Heraclitus "ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δαίμων" (DK 22B119) has led to numerous interpretations. Whether in this context, "daimon" can indeed be translated to mean "fate" is disputed; however, it lends much sense to Heraclitus' observations and conclusions about human nature in general. While the translation with "fate" is generally accepted as in Kahn's "a man's character is his divinity", in some cases, it may also stand for the soul of the departed.
The Daimos is not simply about summoning Ciphrang, perhaps we should look more closely at it's metaphysical attributes.
Something I noted from the glossary
"elhusioli The daimos of excess. As per standard Kiunnat metaphysics, souls directly move other souls, impart the imprint of daimos upon another daimos. Some, such as terror or enthusiasm, are set apart for the dramatic nature of their effect."
It seems that there is both Daimos as sorcery, and daimos as a concept. The Ordeal seems to experience extremes of excess, terror and enthusiasm at various times. Does the intense emotional experiences of thousands and thousands of Ordealmen provide momentum for Kellhus or Ajokli?
Also I note the contrast with the extreme dispassion of the Dunyain, who seek to become self-moving souls
Good catch. So Daimos is a principle, like Logos or ...phusis(?) - sorry, can't remember what the "physical" principle was called, as referred to by Crabicus in TGO. Also, there's the Psukhe, of course, for emotions.
This had never occurred to me before, so I just went and looked up Logos in wiki, which led me to an entry on Heraclitus, which had the following quote:QuoteEthos anthropoi daimon, "character is fate"
This influential quote by Heraclitus "ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δαίμων" (DK 22B119) has led to numerous interpretations. Whether in this context, "daimon" can indeed be translated to mean "fate" is disputed; however, it lends much sense to Heraclitus' observations and conclusions about human nature in general. While the translation with "fate" is generally accepted as in Kahn's "a man's character is his divinity", in some cases, it may also stand for the soul of the departed.
So I take it the daimos is the principle or nature of souls and the Outside. And the Daimos as a sorcery technique is simply the mastery of the daimos as a principle.
In the Knife of Many Hands we learn that a Ciphrang can be implanted in 'special' humans (specifically a Holga or whatever they are called) and does not leave a Mark.
Wow, never connected Seswatha's heart with the Daimos, but thinking about it, it makes perfect sense.