[Wilshire]

The evidence is in the mind of the reader. As with most things with the books so far, if you look hard enough its there.

[Madness]

The evidence is in the mind of the reader. As with most things with the books so far, if you look hard enough its there.

Lol - so my quest to bring some rigour to our citing the Second Apocalypse is moot?

'Common.

[Inraus Ghost]

Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?

Convinced is a strong word in my case, but the bit of text I quoted in my previous post, combined with the settings general metaphysics is why it's my preferred theory. But I'm open to it being a side effect of the tekni, thus being a purely chemical effect. And completely rule out nothing.

As to proof, well there's as much or more than some of the other completely baseless(and sometimes really out there) theories around here. Say, sranc meat being anything other than protein. Because there are far to many physiological and metaphysical differences between the 2 know sources of quirri and nonmen to just assume you get high from both. And no, the announcement of the sranc eating at the end of a book is not evidence either. Think of the horror and revulsion the men of the ordeal must feel and the thought.

All any of us have about anything here is option and conjecture as, by the authors own admission, even our sources of Facts contain misinformation. That's not to say we should not ask "Why do you think that?" of each other. Just a reminder that even our "facts" are infirm ground.   

[Duskweaver]

This assumed distinction between 'metaphysics' and 'just technology' is making me twitchy. I think you all miss Bakker's point in a big way. It's a distinction that only makes sense from the point of view of 'we the readers' observing Earwa from above/outside, from within our own world. In our world, we can speak of 'metaphysics' as something dealing with the soul that we don't believe in except as a metaphor, contrasted with the biological mechanism that is the body and the mind it fools itself into thinking it possesses. To the characters in tSA, though, there's no distinction, just as there wasn't to our own ancestors (and this is the point I think Bakker is trying to make throughout the series). In a sense, there's no such thing as 'metaphysics' to Earwans; it's all just 'physics'. The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.

In other words, Qirri is Qirri. It might be a product of the Tekne or a product of the Gnosis, or some combination, or something else entirely. But to ask whether it is metaphysical or technological is a mu-question. If it changes a character's thoughts or emotions or the way they perceive the world, then in Earwan terms it is acting on their soul. Whether we would describe an analogous substance in our world as 'acting on the soul' or merely as 'a drug' is irrevelant.

Same goes for eating sranc. Someone asked whether it would have any effects beyond the psychological, as if that word doesn't already imply soul-warping in Earwa!

[Wilshire]

I agree with some of that, but I disagree that we cannot look at it from our own perspective. There is some 'objective' truth in Earwa that has been purposely hidden from us, and we spend our time here on the forum trying to discover what that truth might be. Sure you can say that, to Earwa and its ignorant inhabitants, that there is no distinction of physical reality and 'metaphysics' (soul, sorcery, gods, etc.), but that doesn't mean that their ignorance must be our own. We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa. We are not attempting to take the SA universe, put it into our own, and decipher it, but rather taking our privileged perspective and using it to figure out what is really happening in Earwa.

The whole purpose of this forum is to cut through the lies, misinformation, stupidity, ignorance, and biases of the characters and their perspectives, in order to try and figure out whats happening. I wholeheartedly disagree with you that simply because Earwa sees no distinction between physics and metaphysics that we should just accepts 'facts' as facts. Afterall, there would be almost nothing left to talk about if everyone here had that view.

[Madness]

As to proof, well there's as much or more than some of the other completely baseless(and sometimes really out there) theories around here. Say, sranc meat being anything other than protein. Because there are far to many physiological and metaphysical differences between the 2 know sources of quirri and nonmen to just assume you get high from both. And no, the announcement of the sranc eating at the end of a book is not evidence either. Think of the horror and revulsion the men of the ordeal must feel and the thought.

Again, I've actually been working to distinguish the finer details of the Earwan Pharmakopeia earlier in the thread.

I like to at least have sources for even my wilder imaginings. This wouldn't be fun if it wasn't already borne out that sometimes we can tease details of the future narrative from the evidence (not proof - colour me a stickler) in the books.

All any of us have about anything here is option and conjecture as, by the authors own admission, even our sources of Facts contain misinformation. That's not to say we should not ask "Why do you think that?" of each other. Just a reminder that even our "facts" are infirm ground.   

Noted, of course. But again this is simply not a reason not to follow the threads of (ill)logic where they may go .

Let's take Chanv, for instance. Am I to assume from the consensus here that it extends lifespan by manipulating the soul rather than the body?

This assumed distinction between 'metaphysics' and 'just technology' is making me twitchy. I think you all miss Bakker's point in a big way. It's a distinction that only makes sense from the point of view of 'we the readers' observing Earwa from above/outside, from within our own world. In our world, we can speak of 'metaphysics' as something dealing with the soul that we don't believe in except as a metaphor, contrasted with the biological mechanism that is the body and the mind it fools itself into thinking it possesses. To the characters in tSA, though, there's no distinction, just as there wasn't to our own ancestors (and this is the point I think Bakker is trying to make throughout the series). In a sense, there's no such thing as 'metaphysics' to Earwans; it's all just 'physics'. The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.

I can grok this, Duskweaver - but clearly the World is mundane in some senses (read: comparable to our flerwed anachronist projections). Everyone might have a connection the Outside but not everyone is affected in life by that connection, right?

In other words, Qirri is Qirri. It might be a product of the Tekne or a product of the Gnosis, or some combination, or something else entirely. But to ask whether it is metaphysical or technological is a mu-question. If it changes a character's thoughts or emotions or the way they perceive the world, then in Earwan terms it is acting on their soul. Whether we would describe an analogous substance in our world as 'acting on the soul' or merely as 'a drug' is irrevelant.

I'm a person who could (and will in part) happily spend my one life trying to understand the brain. It's not a mu-question. My goal isn't answers, it's analysis.

I grok the collapsed distinction between mind and soul in Earwa. But this raises questions I've had buried in other threads. If I learn something in Earwa, is it my soul that "records" that learning? (To distinguish soul from mind, soul exists both in and Outside the World - and we know from the TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt that the division is tricky - clearly some aspects of cognition don't in fact carry over to your experience of soul later, marking an uneasy distinction between mind and soul again).

Same goes for eating sranc. Someone asked whether it would have any effects beyond the psychological, as if that word doesn't already imply soul-warping in Earwa!

But does it? Again this illustrates the levels of analysis nicely: if I eat Sranc, it could be mundanely revolting (dependent on my biological form not wanting to partake in eating Sranc); it could be that eating Sranc precipitates more intense changes akin to Qirri and Chanv by way of the mundane (which again might not have any effect on the soul, which exists after death); it could be that eating Sranc affects my soul directly and my perceptual and biological changes occur because my soul and its extension Outside are affected. It could be all or none of those things even (possibly).

I don't believe I'm complicating things unnecessarily ...

I agree with some of that, but I disagree that we cannot look at it from our own perspective. There is some 'objective' truth in Earwa that has been purposely hidden from us, and we spend our time here on the forum trying to discover what that truth might be. Sure you can say that, to Earwa and its ignorant inhabitants, that there is no distinction of physical reality and 'metaphysics' (soul, sorcery, gods, etc.), but that doesn't mean that their ignorance must be our own. We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa. We are not attempting to take the SA universe, put it into our own, and decipher it, but rather taking our privileged perspective and using it to figure out what is really happening in Earwa.

The whole purpose of this forum is to cut through the lies, misinformation, stupidity, ignorance, and biases of the characters and their perspectives, in order to try and figure out whats happening. I wholeheartedly disagree with you that simply because Earwa sees no distinction between physics and metaphysics that we should just accepts 'facts' as facts. Afterall, there would be almost nothing left to talk about if everyone here had that view.

Lol, it's interesting to note that one or the other is true. Either the Second Apocalypse is best solved by analysizing through the lens of our anachronistic perspective like Wilshire highlights or by adopting as lens the pre-enlightened worldviews we think our ancestors had as Duskweaver suggests...

Or a mix of both, which makes me want to hit the panic button.

Gall.

[Inraus Ghost]

Note:In my previous post I mistakenly said "differences between the 2 know sources of quirri and nonmen" I meant to say sranc not nonmen.

All any of us have about anything here is option and conjecture as, by the authors own admission, even our sources of Facts contain misinformation. That's not to say we should not ask "Why do you think that?" of each other. Just a reminder that even our "facts" are infirm ground.   

Noted, of course. But again this is simply not a reason not to follow the threads of (ill)logic where they may go .

Let's take Chanv, for instance. Am I to assume from the consensus here that it extends lifespan by manipulating the soul rather than the body?

I brought that up because you were a bit one sidedly insistent on proof in a discussion that bears little either way. I felt, perhaps incorrectly, that you were beginning to get upset and sought to mitigate that. Being here and discussing these things(and greatly enjoying the discourse) should be taken as a willingness to follow and attempt to untangle the threads of RSBs setting regardless of the general lack of objective proof. We're all here to bullshit, brother.

As too Chanv, we've even less data on it so I say assume nothing. I think it's probably magic or techne based

[Madness]

I brought that up because you were a bit one sidedly insistent on proof in a discussion that bears little either way. I felt, perhaps incorrectly, that you were beginning to get upset and sought to mitigate that. Being here and discussing these things(and greatly enjoying the discourse) should be taken as a willingness to follow and attempt to untangle the threads of RSBs setting regardless of the general lack of objective proof. We're all here to bullshit, brother.

Appreciated, Inraus Ghost. None of evidence commentary is directed at anybody so much as everybody, certainly not yourself, as my experience of your words so far has been coherent; I'm just left with more questions. There's only so much text. It's all ambiguious. I'd just like to be able to know someone's connotations, if they have any specific passages that might have prompted their particular thoughts. Is all.

Also, admittedly, I'm a little overzealous about new membership, especially those who share in posts .

As too Chanv, we've even less data on it so I say assume nothing. I think it's probably magic or techne based

The way my head works, this immediately sends me categorizing.

Chanv:
- Eleazarus thinking about the majority of the Ainoni caste-nobility being users; uncertain origins.
- TTT Glossary; Chanv: sharpens intellect, extends one's lifespan, drains pigment
- TTT Glossary; Jekhia: famed as the mysterious source of chanv; humans of Jekhia exhibit Xiuhianni (5th Tribe - missing) characteristics.

Qirri:
- Ash of Burnt Nonman
- The "tenor," let's say (I think that's in a metaphor somewhere), is distinct based on the life-lived (which does admittedly lend itself to the soul-hypotheses).
- Cu'jara Cinmoi and Nil'giccas were both burnt after their Bios had been manipulated by the Tekne (which consensus seems unambiguously, I think, that this is future-biomedical technology, specifically, rather than another sorcery - though, I seem to recall that Soul-Technology has been suggested).
- Cleric says they burn their greatest; Would Nil'giccas have qualified for this ritual? (not super-relevant to detailing the drug and its mechanisms but I'm curious now); Did the Nonpeople perform the ritual of burning their greatest before the Womb-Plague?
- Allows for increased stamina, speed, suppresses hunger, improves eyesight (possibly sensation generally) (Mimara notes that Koll - before the thing called Tsuor replaces him - can't see the Skin-Eaters at night as they all interact unhindered around him), affects depersonalization (like a cognitive gloss) but also sustains an illusion of increased mental clarity, makes one steam (abnormally?) in the rain?

Sranc (?):

- We really don't know whether to include this, do we? I very much feel like Qirri becoming such a major part of WLW and the perversion of the Nonman Bios into Sranc by Tekne both seem to suggest that burnt Sranc will have similar consequences. I mean, I absolutely can't discount that Bakker might simply mean to do a meditation on cannibalism. But I feel like those two things give rise to the possibility of it having a perceptual or physical effect [beyond general revoltion from eating Sranc].

Hash, Perrapta (Fish-Oil liquor), Unnamed Nilnameshi drug used to enslave populace (possibly opium?):

- All exist in Earwa. All seem to mimic real-life drugs (I guess I've imagined perrapta as comparable moonshine or absinthe).

And that's it, I think...

My issue is that I simply can't decide how to take all that and distill it into any sort of functional network. And then I'm doubly confused because it seems that everyone else sees as obvious this Qirri and Soul connection.

Just seeking clarity is all.

[Inraus Ghost]

 I'd just like to be able to know someone's connotations, if they have any specific passages that might have prompted their particular thoughts. Is all.

Also, admittedly, I'm a little overzealous about new membership, especially those who share in posts .

Cool gauging new people to see what kind of mind you're conversing with is totally understandable. I was a bit defensive about it I admit.

- We really don't know whether to include this, do we? I very much feel like Qirri becoming such a major part of WLW and the perversion of the Nonman Bios into Sranc by Tekne both seem to suggest that burnt Sranc will have similar consequences. I mean, I absolutely can't discount that Bakker might simply mean to do a meditation on cannibalism. But I feel like those two things give rise to the possibility of it having a perceptual or physical effect [beyond general revoltion from eating Sranc].

Ok, maybe I was being thick before, but I see your line of reasoning now. I guess it comes down to what nonmen bios was used as the template for the sranc, pre or post womb plague. While they were not encountered until after the discovery of the plague, the numbers in which they appeared makes me think their manufacture began before the Inchori made their offer. But then, to counter my own point, they did have at least Nin'janjin to experiment on.

[Madness]

Cool gauging new people to see what kind of mind you're conversing with is totally understandable. I was a bit defensive about it I admit.

Think nothing of it. I'm incapable of more than minimally diluting my intensely forward personality. Especially in this place .

Ok, maybe I was being thick before, but I see your line of reasoning now. I guess it comes down to what nonmen bios was used as the template for the sranc, pre or post womb plague. While they were not encountered until after the discovery of the plague, the numbers in which they appeared makes me think their manufacture began before the Inchori made their offer. But then, to counter my own point, they did have at least Nin'janjin to experiment on.

Gall. I can never remember this timeline well - books are at home. But I believe you are right-on that the Sranc would have been created en masse as the Inchoroi were ministering the Womb-Plague to the Nonmen.

[Francis Buck]

Regarding timelines and having recently checked them out for a separate topic, I don't think we can really know just when they cracked the Nonman's bios in relation to when they started administering the womb-plague/immortality. But, I do think it's reasonable assumption they had been making Sranc by then (or at least they knew how?). I don't know how much time spanned between the spreading of the womb-plague and Cuno-Inchoroi wars proper (I.E. the unleashing of tons of Sranc), but regardless the two would seem to sort of go hand-in-hand; a knowledge of Nonman biochemistry, that is.

While I do think Bakker is going to get into the thematic concepts of cannibalism in general (he already has), I also think we're definitely going to see some crazy shit going on with eating Sranc. As has been stated, the emphasis on Qirri in the WLW, along with the way the revelation of "now we eat Sranc" is revealed (basically ending the Ordeal's arc in TWLW with that "cliffhanger") is enough for me to believe there's some kind of important shit going down with the Nonman's make-up. And, again, this stuff is all very reminiscent of Dune and melange.

So much stuff in this series, for me, comes down to What the fuck are the Nonmen? Where did they come from? What came first -- man or Nonman? How related are they? It's one of my biggest questions in the series to, and one that I hope (but fear will not) be definitively answered.

[Duskweaver]

Sure you can say that, to Earwa and its ignorant inhabitants, that there is no distinction of physical reality and 'metaphysics' (soul, sorcery, gods, etc.)

No, I'm saying the distinction flat-out makes no sense when talking about Earwa. (There is a related distinction that does make sense: that between the World as the God wills it and that alternative version of reality created by sorcery and hence bearing the Mark.)

I obviously didn't explain my point very well, because the problem isn't merely that we're looking at things differently to how Earwans would, but that we're looking at things differently from how Earwa is. The lack of distinction between the physical and the metaphysical is not due to ignorance on the Earwans' part.

People here appear to be drawing the dividing line between what would be real in our world and what would be impossible in our world, ignoring the fact that both are equally 'real' in Earwa. That makes no sense to me. It feels just the same as when people try to explain things like the owlbear from D&D in terms of evolution by natural selection, or try to work out the chemical composition of wildfire from aSoIaF. If an alchemist from our own Europe's mediaeval period tells us something is 'magic', we know he's wrong; when Hallyne the Pyromancer says the same thing, we've no logical reason to doubt him and assuming he is wrong because of how stuff works in our world is a logical error.

We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa.

That statement seems completely at odds with how Bakker writes. I don't think we ever see "the whole picture". I think filling in the 'gaps' with how things would be in our world is a mistake.

our privileged perspective and using it to figure out what is really happening in Earwa.

I can't agree that we have a "privileged perspective". I think, if anything, we readers know far, far less about how Earwa works than its inhabitants do.

Afterall, there would be almost nothing left to talk about if everyone here had that view.

Obviously I disagree with this, otherwise I'd not be here.

I can grok this, Duskweaver - but clearly the World is mundane in some senses (read: comparable to our flerwed anachronist projections).

As I pointed out above, the more meaningful distinction appears to be between the World as the God wills it (or originally created it) and that which bruises the Onta. If you want to use the word 'mundane', I would suggest using it for the former. But anarcane ground is no less 'metaphysical' than anywhere else in Earwa. Does that make sense?

Everyone might have a connection the Outside but not everyone is affected in life by that connection, right?

To say someone is "unaffected in life" by their own soul seems nonsensical to me.

and we know from the TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt that the division is tricky - clearly some aspects of cognition don't in fact carry over to your experience of soul later, marking an uneasy distinction between mind and soul again).

Hmm... I'm going to have to reread.

Seems like there are implications here for the damnation or otherwise of amnesiac Nonmen?

Speaking of which, I've had the strange thought bouncing around in my head lately that the amnesia of the Erratics might have originally been intentional, devised as a method of "hiding their Voices".

Anyway, I think it'd be helpful if people defined their terms (my inner Confucian is rearing its head again ). What exactly do you guys mean when you say 'mundane', 'psychological', 'soul', 'mind', 'metaphysical', etc. in the context of discussing how Earwa works.

[Madness]

People here appear to be drawing the dividing line between what would be real in our world and what would be impossible in our world, ignoring the fact that both are equally 'real' in Earwa. That makes no sense to me. It feels just the same as when people try to explain things like the owlbear from D&D in terms of evolution by natural selection, or try to work out the chemical composition of wildfire from aSoIaF.

Speaking for myself (obviously), I'm going to roll with a kind of soft 'real-worldness' to Earwa - otherwise, I'd be entirely on board with you (which, honestly, I mostly am). Because the Tekne (Science), right? Because of Kellhus and the Dunyain? Because FB's question matters in terms of how the Nonmen coming to be in a world like you describe?

We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa.

That statement seems completely at odds with how Bakker writes. I don't think we ever see "the whole picture". I think filling in the 'gaps' with how things would be in our world is a mistake.

You don't think some of the gaps can be filled with how things would be in our world - this actually doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, we're always going to be surprised by the fantastical aspects used as explanation because I don't have Bakker's imagination, at least.

I can grok this, Duskweaver - but clearly the World is mundane in some senses (read: comparable to our flerwed anachronist projections).

As I pointed out above, the more meaningful distinction appears to be between the World as the God wills it (or originally created it) and that which bruises the Onta. If you want to use the word 'mundane', I would suggest using it for the former. But anarcane ground is no less 'metaphysical' than anywhere else in Earwa. Does that make sense?

Sure - that is one mechanism by which reality in Earwa functions operates?

Everyone might have a connection the Outside but not everyone is affected in life by that connection, right?

To say someone is "unaffected in life" by their own soul seems nonsensical to me.

If "the bead doesn't break" your physiology is going to be "unaffected" at baseline, so on average as much as the next person's. It's possible that the Outside and its inhabitants completely determine a person's perceptual experience and internal states and while this is partially how things work - is it really the only frame to use for every explanatory situation?

and we know from the TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt that the division is tricky - clearly some aspects of cognition don't in fact carry over to your experience of soul later, marking an uneasy distinction between mind and soul again).

Hmm... I'm going to have to reread.

Seems like there are implications here for the damnation or otherwise of amnesiac Nonmen?

(click to show/hide)

“But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”

I would say absolutely to your query but I can't fathom the implications.

Anyway, I think it'd be helpful if people defined their terms (my inner Confucian is rearing its head again ). What exactly do you guys mean when you say 'mundane', 'psychological', 'soul', 'mind', 'metaphysical', etc. in the context of discussing how Earwa works.

Well, Dusky, approximately I mean:

mundane - as pertaining to matter and it being the mechanism by which a phenomena occurs (otherwise how can the Tekne function unless, as was suggested somewhere across these recent threads, animism then Soul-Technology but non-ensoulled things again suggests a kind of soft materialism in Earwa).

psychological - (agreeing with your distinction that 'mind,' per say is irrelevant) psychological is 'real-world' subject matter projected on Earwa but which is mediated by the soul and its connection to the brain and the brain, not the brain alone - otherwise how can Kellhus dominate people so? Though again, I will agree that Kellhus can very likely see some physiological or behaviorial residue of the soul's connection to the body like he reads emotions.

soul - that part of the Outside that protrudes into the World from the Outside through the body; in Earwa replaces some (or all - in which case, I have no dispute with Duskweaver) of a bodies' normal physiological function. Otherwise, the closest approximation is a description from Plato but I think I'll have to pull out my book to actually find it - online is not helping me. The idea is that all-souls exist after and before death and birth in a one-soul form somewhere: the Pool of Souls. This could be the entirety of the Outside or only the distributed or collective human souls within the Outside.

mind - the part of Earwan physiological function which can be explained by the mechanics of cognitive science as known in our world. Since there is definitely the soul-Outside protrusion occurring in Earwa, I'll continue to posit soft materialism and that projecting some of our real-world knowledge onto Earwa explains some of normal Earwan physiological function.

metaphysical - pertaining to or dependent upon the soul-Outside projection intrusion to exist (like the No-God somehow stops the World from being metaphysical, in a sense - or at least highjacks, disrupts, or replaces the normal connection).

For my part, anyhow .

EDIT: And to preempt. You can suggest that "God Wills It" is the first cause, most antecedent antecedent, etc, etc BUT I will then say that God Wills It borrowing mechanism from our world .

[Wilshire]

To me, Dusk, your line of logic seems to say that we cannot discuss Earwa because our reality exists differently than theirs. Since we are not within the story, all we can do is listen.  Gaps exist within the story that are left there on purpose, by Bakker, for the reader to ponder. I believe we are having some severe communication issues.

Privileged perspective: As the reader we get to be inside of multi brains. We see connections between events, histories, thoughts, and actions from across all time/space that the characters simply cannot see. For example, we have been inside the mind of Kellhu, inside the thoughts of Yatwer (a God!), and within the thoughts of Nonmen. No one character has had all of these experiences, and we have had so much more. We are uniquely suited to solve the mysteries of TSA like no one within possibly could.
I think that most the inhabitants are almost entirely ignorant of how their own universe works. They know almost nothing of gods, magic, souls, nonmen, inchoroi, and history. They don't even know why their customs exist, how they came to be, or why they still do them. There are plenty of characters that know some of each of those subject, but the reader has been inside the minds of nearly every one of these. I think that this combination of thoughts that we alone have allow us to make educated guesses about the inner workings of Earwa's machinations that those inside simply cannot.


Physical/Metaphysical, Mundane/Magical: To me, the same things. Everything in the Bakkerverse is a spectrum. The Outside exists in such a way that "reality" is almost entirely subjective. Those with power can make "reality" bend to their desire. Earwa is at the opposite end of the spectrum, where "reality" exists as mostly objective, meaning that even the powerful must obey the laws (or some of them). There even exists, within Earwa, Anarcane ground, which even the most powerful must obey all the laws, you could say this place is what reality in Earwa is supposed to be.

Schoolmen and Gods use metaphysics (or magic) or alter the physical (mundane) world from what it is supposed to be (objective reality) to what they wish it to be (subjective reality)

To me, saying that there is no distinction between the two is silly. Clearly anyone standing within the Anarcane ground, and a God within its realm of power in the Outside, are distinctly different. I see no problem drawing a line there.


I never intend to suggest that the way our world exists somehow reflects Earwa. I don't think I've ever said something like "magic isn't real IRL, so there is no magic in Earwa". I also never really thought that anyone has tried to impose such logic on this forum, or if they have I've missed it.

[locke]

psychological - (agreeing with your distinction that 'mind,' per say is irrelevant) psychological is 'real-world' subject matter projected on Earwa but which is mediated by the soul and its connection to the brain and the brain, not the brain alone - otherwise how can Kellhus dominate people so?

How?  Easy.

Kellhus is deluded, and other people's perception of him is correct.

The Dunyain, with no knowledge of soul metaphysics, have built an elaborate (and false) physical architecture to explain the insights they get through soul metaphysics.

In other words, Kellhus does not read faces, this is just an elaborate delusion that has been built into him, a delusion of mastery.  Kellhus in fact reads souls--as everyone who encounters him believes he does--and since Kellhus is incapable of believing he is wrong, he never questions his underlying assumptions (that he is reading faces), he never questions the vocablulary, the language that was inscribed onto him and conditioned into him. 

Moenghus figured out that his eyes were a mechanism of control, and to truly see what comes before and read souls without the illusions seeing forced upon by the Dunyain he had to go blind.