I honestly don't get it. I read through that book really fast because I had it from the library late and wanted to finish it, and then I never got the chance to read it again. I've checked out forums to see if anyone ever mentioned it, but I've never seen anything. So I really want to know. Is it just supposed to be Moe's "plan" or whatever? I suspect it's more than that, but I've never been clear on it. Enlighten me.
This is from my Unholy Consult post. Pretty much sums up my views but, obviously, the social implications are always fun to parse. My bolding for context here and spoilers tags are from WLW.Quote from: MadnessThe Thousandfold Thought - The Probability Trance followed long enough reveals the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus saw it. Kellhus mined its labyrinthine possibilities.(click to show/hide)
p. 367, TTT - "The God sleeps ... It has ever been thus. Only by striving for the Absolute may we awaken Him. Meaning. Purpose. These words name not something given ... no, they name our task."
Moenghus seems to suggest that whomever delves the farthest will become Absolute, that the unmoved soul the Dunyain strive for, is the God itself.
Who has delved deepest?
It's like Laplace's Demon, Hari Sheldon's Sheldon Plan, Leto's Golden Path. I have another post around here talking about this. It basically describes, deterministically or otherwise, the unfolding of all events - in the Dunyain's case, past, present, and future.
So the Dunyain goal would be to strive to alter that at all - change the utterly deterministic path everything walks?
Edit: the absolute being the moment from which determinism begins?
I've only just started considering that it's cloud computing. Kellhus hypnotises them so he can pass data from and, via the fire watching spell, back to him. So he has vastly increased his processing power. His dad couldn't because he needed a way to feed the data back in, but had lost that capacity.
I thought the inclusion of the soul ensured Earwa was non-deterministic, but then Cnauir actually wonders about this in TTT. Akka talks to him about souls, but he notes that the Dunyain power comes from treating the world as causally closed.
So we're left with uncertainty, or perhaps forced to seek out Stapp's Quantum Consciousness theories. ;-)
Sometimes I think about the time stream as being like toffee - ie, its all one long line, but it drips down and folds upon itself. Thus a latter part of the stream touches an earlier part, peripherally.
Eh? It's that complicated? I've always thought it just referred to Moenghus' master plan on engineering the holy war, calling his son Kellhus, uniting the three seas under a single leadership to attack Golgoterrath.
I think more the engine of his plan - he could not attain the TTT, which was the key element of the plan. That's why he called for his son.
isn't it designted as a "transition rule"? if so, that has specific significance in the hard sciences, which i don't really understand. we also see the phrase in law, but it's less interesting there.
I sort of harbor the personal crackpot theory that Moenghus just made it up.
Quote from: SwenseSo the Dunyain goal would be to strive to alter that at all - change the utterly deterministic path everything walks?
Edit: the absolute being the moment from which determinism begins?
I found this interesting. The goal of the Dunyain, as least as far as we have been told, is to obtain the absolute. So to obtain the absolute, to be a "self moving soul".
I have questioned why everyone who seems to "grasp" TTT seems to want to take it in a different direction. Maybe this is because there can only be 1 Absolute (no highlander reference intended). If TTT is the inevitable conclusion of following the probability trance long enough, then it would seem to be reasonable that to grasp the Absolute, one would need to control TTT.
TTT seems to be the culmination of the darkness that comes before. The culmination of all things that determine the actions of man. Now we go to the dunyain who want to be self moving. To do this nothing must come before. If even the Dunyain, after 2000 years of selective breeding, are in this ball of probability that is TTT, then they would need to control it to become outside of it.
So then there certainly could only be 1 person directing it, because baring being the only one, someone else would be controlling the future of you and everyone else.
Also I think it might be worth nothing the the Dunyain in Ishual cannot grasp TTT. This is because TTT is the inevitable conclusion of the probability trance followed with ALL variables. This includes war, sorcery, presumable the Tekne to some degree, and the Consult. This may help to explain why Ishual is not filled with Dunyain freaking about about the end of the world.
Creackpot?:
This could be one of the reason why upon finding Ishual, the original Dunyain ignored and even hid the existence of sorcery. They may have already have known seen TTT. They knew that the current apocalypse would not end the world, but that the second would certainly be the end of all things if nothing was done. So they hid themselves away in order to save the world from the end. It could have been that 2000 years of preparation, and perhaps many more, would be needed to save the world. If Ishual was left to try and control every one of the doomsday variables then maybe they would have been doomed to fail. But, if they could focus on just a few, if they could be given the tools to say detect the yet to be developed skin-spys, the brain power to wield the most devastating sorceries (without the need to develop scorecery for those 2000 years), and the physical prowess to defeat any circumstance.
Could the Dunyain have "stumbled" into Ishual and made it their contingecy play to change the fate of the world?
I may have more things to crackpot about but for now I'm out of time.
Quote from: The SharmatI sort of harbor the personal crackpot theory that Moenghus just made it up.
Moenghus thought, "how can I throw Kellhus off my scent, if he knows what I conspire he will try to overthrow me or stop me or seize control from me... how can I distract him? I know! I'll send a minion with a cryptic message that contains an appropriately cryptic phrase, he'll think the phrase is my entire plan and never bother to look beyond or around the phrase, I'll trap him in his own expectations!"
Come to think of it, Kellhus does sort of go 'shiny!' at the mention of TTT, and in a sense, he becomes trapped by it. TTT is a way to flatter a Dunyain's sense of superiority to the world, an illusion that he can master all circumstance and all men. Come to think of it. he is also trapped by assuming the roles of God and Emperor.
If Moenghus survived, he would be free to act however he pleased.
QuoteI sort of harbor the personal crackpot theory that Moenghus just made it up.Heh, I could like that theory, if he was worldborn.
Well given that it does give Kellhus what he wants to hear (that he has surpassed his father) it does sound like something a Dunyain would use.
Also note that neither of them ever describe what the Thousandfold Thought dictated they do, and that Kellhus was forced to cut his attempted interrogation of Moenghus short due to Cnaiur's imminent arrival.
And finally, consider that Kellhus left the grotto in Kyudea with absolutely no information he didn't have before he entered.
EDIT: It also occurs to me that throughout the entire series, never in his internal monologue does Kellhus acknowledge that his reasoning could be flawed. Only that his knowledge is imperfect. He seems to assume that had he the correct information, he would always act on it appropriately to achieve his goals. (Although come to think of it he does later come to regret not killing Cnaiur. Still, he never considers the possibility as a general phenomena.)
Moenghus on the other hand acknowledges that even a Dunyain has vestigial emotions and biases that can interfere with their pursuit of the shortest path. That they are flawed.
Which sounds more like the failing of a world born man? What is more likely, that Kellhus alone in all the universe posseses the capacity for perfect reason, or that he's a remarkable yet wholly fallible individual?
Quote from: The SharmatWhich sounds more like the failing of a world born man? What is more likely, that Kellhus alone in all the universe posseses the capacity for perfect reason, or that he's a remarkable yet wholly fallible individual?this is something that bugged me the entire first read of the series, that Kellhus was rarely questioning himself, only noting the flaws in others. And that we readers were supposed to let him get away with it because he fits the script of the traditional fantasy protagonist hero ubermench.
I think there's something literary and thematic going on with the contradiction that Kellhus embodies in not noting his own failings, but I'm not certain we're going to get all of that until after the series is complete. :-/
Quote from: The SharmatWell given that it does give Kellhus what he wants to hear (that he has surpassed his father) it does sound like something a Dunyain would use.Yeah, I was kind of reading it as in just kinda made-made up. Kind of like world born art. You mean towards a purpose?
Generally I think the series has avoided the Dunyain using lies, because it's just such an easy get out for readers. But given TTT is the title of a book, I could imagine it being epic enough to switch.
Well, I never thought of it. Does seem like a potential honey trap, as you describe. The whole 'students love to embaress their teacher' (or however the quote goes).QuoteAlso note that neither of them ever describe what the Thousandfold Thought dictated they do, and that Kellhus was forced to cut his attempted interrogation of Moenghus short due to Cnaiur's imminent arrival.I guess he might not have been able to know how many skin spies were with Cnaiur, but otherwise, why was he interupted?QuoteAnd finally, consider that Kellhus left the grotto in Kyudea with absolutely no information he didn't have before he entered.Well, he left knowing his father was high probability dead.QuoteWhich sounds more like the failing of a world born man? What is more likely, that Kellhus alone in all the universe posseses the capacity for perfect reason, or that he's a remarkable yet wholly fallible individual?It depends - alot of people think the assasin who killed Mathanet is the white luck warrior. In the case of the TTT or WLW, how much information do you really have for that case, though? Apart from narrative logic?
I'll totally pay you added another probable to the list!
Quote from: Callan S.Yeah, I was kind of reading it as in just kinda made-made up. Kind of like world born art. You mean towards a purpose?I think it's both. He created the concept so you could fill in the blanks yourself and make it mean whatever you like, and it was for a purpose.QuoteGenerally I think the series has avoided the Dunyain using lies, because it's just such an easy get out for readers. But given TTT is the title of a book, I could imagine it being epic enough to switch.They rarely use lies, but that's because outright lies are far easier to falsify than half truths and spin. They do when absolutely necessary though. See: Kellhus claiming he's a prince of Atrithau.QuoteI guess he might not have been able to know how many skin spies were with Cnaiur, but otherwise, why was he interupted?Well he was continually acting like (within his internal monologue) he was on a strict time table, and he leaves just when he begins to perceive Cnaiur and the skin spies approaching. I assumed he knew he was likely to be followed and that he wanted no encounter with them at that time.QuoteWell, he left knowing his father was high probability dead.True, but at that point I think he'd determined to do that in the first place. Only one would leave that place.
Quote from: The SharmatIt's a bit off topic of me, but that's not how I think our art works - our art works by a shared wonderment about the future, between both artist and audience. Not a manipulation. But that's just what I read you as saying at first and I now think I read incorrectly.Quote from: Callan S.Yeah, I was kind of reading it as in just kinda made-made up. Kind of like world born art. You mean towards a purpose?I think it's both. He created the concept so you could fill in the blanks yourself and make it mean whatever you like, and it was for a purpose.QuoteWhich also got it's own book title, didn't it?QuoteGenerally I think the series has avoided the Dunyain using lies, because it's just such an easy get out for readers. But given TTT is the title of a book, I could imagine it being epic enough to switch.They rarely use lies, but that's because outright lies are far easier to falsify than half truths and spin. They do when absolutely necessary though. See: Kellhus claiming he's a prince of Atrithau.
It's a shame - I am partial to the theory the TTT is cloud sourcing processing time amongst world born, then reading it back through the flame spying method, to create a mega processor.
It just being 'A Thought of Nothing' is a bit of a let down, that 'A Prince of Nothing' wasn't.QuoteWell I guess if you don't know how many skin spies you might have to kill to not be followed. BUT, skin spies have an excellent sense of smell - as it was in the book, you think they'd be able to track him anyway. And he'd know that. If so, why was he interupted?QuoteI guess he might not have been able to know how many skin spies were with Cnaiur, but otherwise, why was he interupted?Well he was continually acting like (within his internal monologue) he was on a strict time table, and he leaves just when he begins to perceive Cnaiur and the skin spies approaching. I assumed he knew he was likely to be followed and that he wanted no encounter with them at that time.
Or maybe it was another concession to his 'brother', Cnaiur? Or would that better fit as 'step mother'?Quote:D How does it become something already known, simply because you determined to do it before hand?QuoteWell, he left knowing his father was high probability dead.True, but at that point I think he'd determined to do that in the first place. Only one would leave that place.
Quote from: Callan S.It's a bit off topic of me, but that's not how I think our art works - our art works by a shared wonderment about the future, between both artist and audience. Not a manipulation. But that's just what I read you as saying at first and I now think I read incorrectly.Well, depends on how you define art I suppose. But I think either way, we can probably agree that there is at least some art that aims to do that very thing?
And to be pedantic, inducing a shared wonderment about the future IS a manipulation. If successful, you caused some one to feel something they otherwise would not have at that time.QuoteWhich also got it's own book title, didn't it?What you were suggesting completely flew over my head. You're saying that the title of each of the first three books is a lie? A Prince of Nothing, he plays a false Prince, Warrior Prophet, he plays a false prophet...and if this idea is true, the Thousandfold Thought is a lie. Fun idea. Impossible to prove though.
Not sure about the later books though? The Judging Eye is certainly not a lie, and the White Luck Warrior I think is who he appears to be, and I believe I have good reasons to think that. Won't go into it in a board about the first series though.QuoteIt's a shame - I am partial to the theory the TTT is cloud sourcing processing time amongst world born, then reading it back through the flame spying method, to create a mega processor.Also a fun idea. Although I think Moenghus would be perfectly capable of performing it if that were it. He at the very least was exceptional at communication sorcery.QuoteWell I guess if you don't know how many skin spies you might have to kill to not be followed. BUT, skin spies have an excellent sense of smell - as it was in the book, you think they'd be able to track him anyway. And he'd know that. If so, why was he interupted?I suppose interrupted may be the wrong term. I'm sure he knew he was being followed, just not necessarily how long before they'd have his trail and arrive. Fighting at that point would be dangerous anyway. In a melee between Cnaiur, two skin spies, and Moenghus, there's a lot of impossible variables. Not conditioned ground by any means. Easier to just Gnosis yourself out.Quote:D How does it become something already known, simply because you determined to do it before hand?
Well, it was perceived as the MOST LIKELY set of probable events. And if that didn't happen then he was far off the rails anyway, so he couldn't plan beyond what he couldn't see.
all'y'all are making me chuckle now. it's a "transition rule": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_rule
that means it is heavily abstractly mathematical, which RSB might've explained further, but wisely did not present for our inspection because a ) one of y'all math nerds would've found fault with it and b ) no one else would be able to understand it.
TTT is(click to show/hide)
so, yeah, it's like the seldon plan (but not the golden path) to the extent it is an attempt to deduce the future. all science fiction models for deducing the future that are scientific, as opposed to prophetic, are answers to marxism--with heavy mathematics. (drug-addled prescience does not strike me as deductive reasoning, but rather as religious revelation--or the mind decoupled from time or whatever.)
even the simple physics transition rules are indecipherable to me. i suspect something as grand as the spoilyered bit would have hundreds of moving parts.
Quote from: The SharmatYou mean as Moenghus would do??? In this world, today? Do you realise the enormity of this speculation?Quote from: Callan S.It's a bit off topic of me, but that's not how I think our art works - our art works by a shared wonderment about the future, between both artist and audience. Not a manipulation. But that's just what I read you as saying at first and I now think I read incorrectly.Well, depends on how you define art I suppose. But I think either way, we can probably agree that there is at least some art that aims to do that very thing?QuoteAnd to be pedantic, inducing a shared wonderment about the future IS a manipulation. If successful, you caused some one to feel something they otherwise would not have at that time.It depends whether you only move them, or simply feel you only move them, but are also unbeknownst to you also moved with them.QuoteHow do you know the judging eye is true? What, it's evaluation of who is damned is correct, by your measure? And how is luck involved, with the probability path choosing (not just hoping for) so called white luck warrior?QuoteWhich also got it's own book title, didn't it?What you were suggesting completely flew over my head. You're saying that the title of each of the first three books is a lie? A Prince of Nothing, he plays a false Prince, Warrior Prophet, he plays a false prophet...and if this idea is true, the Thousandfold Thought is a lie. Fun idea. Impossible to prove though.
Not sure about the later books though? The Judging Eye is certainly not a lie, and the White Luck Warrior I think is who he appears to be, and I believe I have good reasons to think that. Won't go into it in a board about the first series though.
Now, I can't remember, is the next book called the unholy consult, or was that just a name given to avoid spoiling? The next sequence of books used to be called the great ordeal, for that reason, anyway.QuoteWell, two things - he didn't have the raw power - communicating back to Ishual almost killed him. And he'd lost high sight/his most detailed input device. Now you might argue he could use magic to get normal vision back (instead of just using snakes), but maybe you can't. If you can't, then as the books suggest, instead of walking the shortest path Moe had entered a dead end.QuoteIt's a shame - I am partial to the theory the TTT is cloud sourcing processing time amongst world born, then reading it back through the flame spying method, to create a mega processor.Also a fun idea. Although I think Moenghus would be perfectly capable of performing it if that were it. He at the very least was exceptional at communication sorcery.
Okay, how about this as the freaky idea - the TTT was simply a manipulation. But say the flame reading cloud computing is the case - then a lie lead to a functioning, powerful truth?
Oooh, even more so, each title is a lie that leads to functioning, powerful truths (judging eye repelling the white, for example)??QuoteI think question marks hover over this.QuoteWell I guess if you don't know how many skin spies you might have to kill to not be followed. BUT, skin spies have an excellent sense of smell - as it was in the book, you think they'd be able to track him anyway. And he'd know that. If so, why was he interupted?I suppose interrupted may be the wrong term. I'm sure he knew he was being followed, just not necessarily how long before they'd have his trail and arrive. Fighting at that point would be dangerous anyway. In a melee between Cnaiur, two skin spies, and Moenghus, there's a lot of impossible variables. Not conditioned ground by any means. Easier to just Gnosis yourself out.
Though I guess you could just say he went mad and this is what a mad dude did.QuoteHeh, maybe you share a Dunyain's certitude in their own conclusions? :twisted: :mrgreen:Quote:D How does it become something already known, simply because you determined to do it before hand?
Well, it was perceived as the MOST LIKELY set of probable events. And if that didn't happen then he was far off the rails anyway, so he couldn't plan beyond what he couldn't see.
Quote from: WilshireSo then there certainly could only be 1 person directing it, because baring being the only one, someone else would be controlling the future of you and everyone else.
Also I think it might be worth nothing the the Dunyain in Ishual cannot grasp TTT. This is because TTT is the inevitable conclusion of the probability trance followed with ALL variables.
Reminds me of:Quote from: Warrior-ProphetChapter Eleven: Shigek
If all human events possess purpose, then all human deeds possess purpose. And yet when men vie with men, the purpose of no man comes to fruition: the result always falls somewhere in between. The purpose of deeds, then, cannot derive from the purposes of men, because all men vie with all men. This means the deeds of men must be willed by something other than men. From this it follows that we are all slaves.
Who then is our Master?
—MEMGOWA, THE BOOK OF DIVINE ACTS
Also reminds me of a speculation I entertained not too long ago (though maybe the logical "key" here will be trivial for you to pinpoint?). If (cf. the other dude's "transition rule to deduce the future" idea) humanity discovers a way to deduce the outcomes of all events as they have been determined - assuming full causality - wouldn't attempting to deduce their own upcoming actions lead to some kind of paradox loop? As in, knowing the results of their future actions as calculated would induce them to make a change ad infinitum. Or have I missed something?
I think knowing the universes next move at an atomic level would require...a universe to calculate. The universe is already calculating it's next move as fast as is possible, by definition of it being the yardstick of how fast that can occur.
But ignoring that, perhaps not so much a paradox loop, but instead any capacity to see into the future would be mared by how much you care about that future. The more you care, the more it turns to static. The more you shrug, the more you see. Tell me, what do you see? Wow, what if the no-god is actually a god of compassion...okay, that's a bit too wild a guess...
...a universe to calculate
there's already enough douglas adams in RSB--but wouldn't it be great if the thousandfold thought were 42?
Quote from: Bakker Userhumanity discovers a way to deduce the outcomes of all events as they have been determined - assuming full causality - wouldn't attempting to deduce their own upcoming actions lead to some kind of paradox loop? As in, knowing the results of their future actions as calculated would induce them to make a change ad infinitum.
I dunno about tha-
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE
To sologdin: After reading more Herbert I'd like to disagree with your assertion that the golden path is significantly different than the Seldon plan or TTT. You seem to place too much emphasis on the fact that the golden path seems to be more religious than scientific. Yes the prescience is surrounded by religion and is explained by religion, but that does not make it of religion rather than reason. Indeed the three seas find Kell a god when he really is just smart.
When the prescience occurs it is not a single path lain down by god. It if a muddled mess of probability, with the obvious, most probably avenues easy to see, but it has branching and meandering ways, just like the probability trance. It follows, almost exactly, how Bakker tells us about cause and effect, and how the dunyain calculate plausible futures. Sure the prescience is not 100% the same, but consider the intellectual differences of the Kell and the much more human (though augmented) Paul is. If you look more deeply into Paul's visions and descriptions, as well as the golden path, I think you should be able to more fully recognize the similarities between them and TTT.
i hear you. timothy-leary-in-the-desert is the operative distinction for me.
ah sologdin, since your here do you think you could explain your 'golden path, shortening of the way'/'shortest path, goldening of the way' a bit?
I dont fully understand it, especially not the goldening of the way bit.
Quote from: Wilshireah sologdin, since your here do you think you could explain your 'golden path, shortening of the way'/'shortest path, goldening of the way' a bit?That reminds me that I need to reply to the most awesome post about the No-God:No-Ship Dune post sologdin made a while back.
I dont fully understand it, especially not the goldening of the way bit.
Quote from: lockesnowThat reminds me that I need to reply to the most awesome post about the No-God:No-Ship Dune post sologdin made a while back.Where? Must have been long before my Dune days or I would noticed it.
the GotW bit is a joke parallelism that i drew. i reserve the right to adopt it as a serious prediction ab initio if it turns out to be right. in the event that it's manifestly, stupidly wrong, it was obviously always only irony.
ETA--
basically, though, the parallelism works like this:
kwisatz haderach is defined in dune (glossary) as:Quote"Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution: a male Bene Gesserit whose organic mental powers would bridge space and time.
kwisatz haderach is also early made part of a different equation, during the opening gom jobbar bit:Quote"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory--in her body's memory. We look down so many avenues of the past...but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are replled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot--into both the feminine and masculine pasts."
"Your Kwisatz Haderach?"
"Yes, the one who can be many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. Many men have tried the drug...so many, but none has succeeded."
"They tried and failed, all of them?"
"Oh, no." She shook her head. "They tried and died."
the uberdouche in dune is therefore the shortening of the way, and seeks the golden path.
conversely, we know that RSB's uberdouche seeks the shortest path, and therefore he must be the goldening of the way. we know that TTT is part of the shortest path. how is he also therefore GotW? no idea. what's gold in the story?
[churchlady voice]hmm. i wonder. hmmmmmmQuoteThat night, as always, the old Wizard dreamed of the hooror that was the Golden Room. The moaning procession. The eviscerating horn. The chain heaving him and other wretches forward.(V.12 at 441).
hmmm.
could it be...?
could it be...SATAN?
[/churchlady]
pretty obvious to me now that we might deduce from the dune/GotW parallel that AK is the NG.
See thats exactly what I thought but I didn't want to credit/discredit you until I was sure
Out of curiousity, if Kellhus is the No-God - stupidly predictable, as people have been making that connection since TDTCB - is he also the No-God of the First Apocalypse? Something that has always piqued my thoughts, is the question of the No-God's agency.
I like the inversion you are toying with, solo... However, if the Thousandfold Thought reflects the statistical collapsing of probabilities emerging into an equal or greater number of certainties, isn't it the only path?
paul and leto are separate kwisatz haderachs. so, separate NGs, then?
but yeah, AK as NG is not a prediction for which we need to mess with herbert. is there something truly ludicrous that it predicts? AK is inchierex, or something?
I've been motivated mostly by the unfolding topical conversation in the Dune vs. TSA thread but I can think of a number of possible parallels, especially if Bakker is picking derivatives hapazardly, rather than in whole arcs.
Inchierex is probably a good thing to keep in mind ;). I'm completely expecting to be outwitted by Bakker here so I assume the actuality far beyond all possible speculation lol.
On the fly, let's think in terms of symbiosis and Leto's Golden Plan. In Bakker's Earwa this suggests two immediate possible deviations - Kellhus' plan depends on his death and mortal entrance into the Outside or living/dead metamorphosis by the Tekne.
Quote from: sologdini reserve the right to adopt it as a serious prediction ab initio if it turns out to be right. in the event that it's manifestly, stupidly wrong, it was obviously always only irony.I really should have this in my signature...
There seems to be a lot of deep thinking going off here, but no one has mentioned what the basic plan is about? (Sorry if I’m wrong, not read the thread in detail)
My practical understanding of the thousand fold thought is simple, it’s Moenghus plan to defeat the consult, from start to finish.
Starting with Kellhus summons from Ishul, and encompassing his travels and education.
The design and manufacture of the holy war (this was Moenghus tool to combine the warring factions of Fanimry and inrithism, because as Moe said, human kind would stand no chance unless combined)
Thought number 1000 ends in ultimate victory over the Consult?
Hmm... the basic plan is... whatever Kellhus wants it to be? He's the X-factor in the Thousandfold paths unfolding from him and he knows where all leads... allegedly.
However, thought 1000 is most certainly apprehending the Absolute or Godhood/what the Dunyain have been breeding for. Whatever that means.
If you feel the thousand fold thought now belongs to Kellhus, then i guess so.
I’m talking about Moes original thought though.
And that’s as clear as crystal. The destruction of the consult.
I just find it odd that no one is mentioning that.
As the original question was “what is the thousand fold thought”
I'm honestly one of the camp that Moenghus is a lying liar who lies. All I can do with that one is point out the dissonance between what he reveals to Kellhus on different occasions and points to in their conversation.
Everything Moenghus the Elder did is suspect to me.
Also, I really am of the opinion that the Thousandfold Thought is one artifact. Its the probability trance collapsing into long-term assurances, things that, no-matter what, will come to pass - depending, of course, on the Dunyain trying to explore the world's circumstances to that extent.
If the destruction of the Consult is where the Thought ended for Moenghus, then, perhaps, Moenghus isn't the Dunyain I've thought he was. Kellhus just sees past his father.
The TTT doesn't 'belong' to anyone. To me it is a summation of probability. The Thought did no so much as out-grow its creator (big Moe), but rather his son saw farther. It did not grow, it was more fully revealed, and perhaps in this one case the blind man was truly blind.
I was wondering if there's any connection between thousand fold thought and the thousand temples?
...and the Thousand Thousand Halls... If I remember correctly the T. T. halls were used to test dunyain initiates (weeding out those that were unable to escape the labyrinth of tunnels). On a higher level, the world and all all of its conflicting forces and agendas could be seen as some sort of labyrinth to be overcome by a dunyain, where the thousandfold thought would be the way out of such a labyrith...
+1, Wilshire.Quote from: GalbrodOn a higher level, the world and all all of its conflicting forces and agendas could be seen as some sort of labyrinth to be overcome by a dunyain, where the thousandfold thought would be the way out of such a labyrith...
:shock: ... sweet thought. +1.
Quote from: Galbrod...and the Thousand Thousand Halls... If I remember correctly the T. T. halls were used to test dunyain initiates (weeding out those that were unable to escape the labyrinth of tunnels). On a higher level, the world and all all of its conflicting forces and agendas could be seen as some sort of labyrinth to be overcome by a dunyain, where the thousandfold thought would be the way out of such a labyrith...
Thats good. I like that connection.
Could have been the name of the test given to those Dunyain that were smart/strong enough to grasp it. That only the top tier Dunyain where given the tools to see into the darkness that laid before. A lesser Dunyain would simply get lost in its depth, but the strongest could see past.
This puts Moe somewhere at the top of the alleged dunyain hierarchy. The Dunyain sent him to the world to test his son, who broke somewhere along the way (or saw a shorter/different path depending on your interpretation). This was not accounted for and a the cycle of teacher to student was broken.
Kell then manipulates the other half-dunyain into seeing the Thought as he wants them (a version not necessarily the same as the one he has grasped depending on what suits his needs).
Any singlefold thoughts on that?
I don't think it's to Dunyain plan. I think Moe maybe found some potential way out of the labyrinth (to tie into Galbrod's idea).
I think some other people have suggested a link between what the people of Earwa believe and what IS. Tying into magic, which is something Ishual Dunyain just don't get into. Perhaps if you can control enough people, you control the labyrinth, and so can escape it? Perhaps some non causal time travel event, as escape? Maybe the timeline were seeing is a second one, the events rewritten by Kellhus to this configuration after a prior one where he attained the TTT by some other path. Perhaps in his madness, he seeded the prophesy.
And then Donny Darko shoots the guy in the rabbit costume...
Quote from: MadnessAlso, I really am of the opinion that the Thousandfold Thought is one artifact. Its the probability trance collapsing into long-term assurances, things that, no-matter what, will come to pass - depending, of course, on the Dunyain trying to explore the world's circumstances to that extent.History has inertia?
Not so much inertia, a la paul's witness of the future creates that future. Rather, the collapse of futures, or the inevitability of them, comes from a large summation of probabilities and, a la the Seldon Plan.
I've percieved the difference between Moe and Kelllhus as an in game - off game separation. Moe appears to see the world and the way it works as something given and is focused on 'winning the game' by clever schemes and maneovers, while Kellhus appears to be more focused on 'changing the rules of the game'. From this perspective it would be natural for the Tf thought in Moe's variant to become a strategy to maneover for power and eliminate any in-game threats (such as the consult). I think that it's hard to pinpoint Kellhus' variant of the Tf thought (as we can no longer follow his point of view) but it appears to be related to religious belief and the recreation of meaning within Earwa. In effect, changing the way the world works and redraw the difference between the inside/outside by combining the wordly/inside and the divine/outside in his person.. Kellhus ambition appears to have similarities to the ambitions of the consult, but while the consult appears to be primarily motivated by their fear of damnation (what comes after) Kellhus main motivation appears to be the classical dunyain ambition to be master of your own actions (to become a self-moving soul).
By the way, do any of you know if RSB has taken the term dunyain from the turkish term dünyanın, meaning 'world'?
Interesting perspective but I don't agree in the direction you went.
Moe was playing for the Consult. His plan to save the world was to seal it from the gods, them being the primary evil that needed to be defeated.
Kell wants to save the world from the Consult and their No-God, for they are the primary evil. His idea is wholly opposite of the Consult, who would separate the world from Earwa. While not necessairly wanting to bring the hundred more power, he certainly is trying to prevent them from being cut off.
I think Kell set out as a pure Dunyain, the Absolute being his only real concern, he has likely moved far beyond that limited perspective.
Galbrod you would probably like the "Moenghus is a lying liar who lies" thread. You should read though it if you havent, it discusses lots of these topics.
Quote from: GalbrodBy the way, do any of you know if RSB has taken the term dunyain from the turkish term dünyanın, meaning 'world'?Probably. 'Tekne' is Turkish too (meaning 'vessel', as in 'ship' or 'ark').
Wilshire
Good tip, the 'lying liar' was a really interesting thread! Being a newbie on the forum, I'm super-impressed with depth of knowledge that people on this forum have. Borrowing from the 'lies' thread I agree that a fair interpretation could be that Kellhus is aiming to be ' the savior by leaving the world open, as opposed to Moe the savior by shutting it'. I however have a hard time seeing Kellhus taking the role of saviour for anybody but himself. Thus the similarity between Kellhus and the consult would not be the choice of method (reshape belief versus shutting the world) but rather the motivation to make yourself independent of the gods on the outside. These are however still perceptions from my side from reading the books just one time and I realise that I have not (by far) as good a grip as the regulars on this forum have. I've just started re-reading TDTCB and I realise that I will probably have to re-evaluate a lot :-)
Dusk
Interesting. Do you think that RSB has borrowed the terms randomly, or should we assume that the shared etymological connection between the turkish terms 'dünyanın' and 'tekne' would indicate that there exist some sort of connection between the concepts within the world of Bakker?
Heh, I think if he's preventing a cutting off from the hundred gods, it'd be because his ambition is beyond Moe's, reaching to master...well, why would you cut off what you seek to dominate?
Quote from: GalbrodDo you think that RSB has borrowed the terms randomly, or should we assume that the shared etymological connection between the turkish terms 'dünyanın' and 'tekne' would indicate that there exist some sort of connection between the concepts within the world of Bakker?I think the connection is that Turks and Greeks are traditional enemies. Those concepts closest and most familiar to 'us'/the 'real' world (science/technology and a rationalistic/materialistic worldview) are rendered in one language, while the concepts of 'magic' are rendered in the (in a sense) 'opposing' language.
Where RSB shows real brilliance, IMO, is by putting them the way round he does. Greek is more familiar to us than Turkish, so you might expect the familiar 'real world' concepts to be in Greek, and the wierd (to us) magic in Turkish. But no! He uses the 'familiar' (to us) language for those things that are familiar in Earwa and the more 'alien' (to us) language for those concepts 'alien' to Earwa. Immersion ensues.
Quote from: GalbrodWilshireFirst, I'd strongly recommend doing a reread. I've only read the series twice myself, but that second read was amazing. The first go through I barely knew what was going on and I was focused on the big picture, which inevitably means that the small things get left out. On the second time thought I really got to focus in on the minute and it was a whole new experience.
Borrowing from the 'lies' thread I agree that a fair interpretation could be that Kellhus is aiming to be ' the savior by leaving the world open, as opposed to Moe the savior by shutting it'.
I however have a hard time seeing Kellhus taking the role of saviour for anybody but himself. Thus the similarity between Kellhus and the consult would not be the choice of method (reshape belief versus shutting the world) but rather the motivation to make yourself independent of the gods on the outside.
Ah good, a dissenting opinion. It gets rather dull around here when everyone starts agreeing.
Thats a solid theory. I can see how Kell would come off as a bit self centered (maybe more than a bit), so the leap from self centered jackass to world-savior might be rather difficult. Saving just himself seems logical, but I don't see how Kell could accomplish that. Any ideas?
This has the makings of a new thread and I like the dialectic you're highlighting, Duskweaver.
It makes me wonder though. Tekne, is almost most certainly derived from, Techne, a Greek term that is often translated as craftsmanship, craft, or art (Wiki) - though, I've encountered plenty of other sources, some as loose a translation as technology.
But, obviously, the Turkish is a good connotation too. Gah!!! How much do you know, Bakker?!Quote from: GalbrodI've percieved the difference between Moe and Kelllhus as an in game - off game separation. Moe appears to see the world and the way it works as something given and is focused on 'winning the game' by clever schemes and maneovers, while Kellhus appears to be more focused on 'changing the rules of the game'.
+1 for metaphor.
Concerning Kallhus saving himself, well the short version would be that if dominant external influence (primarily damnation) comes from the god/gods (whether based on a consensus reality formula relating to the beliefs of individuals or not) the solution becomes to make a god of yourself.
:-) thanks Mad!
"First, I'd strongly recommend doing a reread."
Me too. There is just too much in this series to get anything near full appreciation on one read. Time permitting, of course.
"But, obviously, the Turkish is a good connotation too. Gah!!! How much do you know, Bakker?!"
Thirty years, Father. How great is your power?
Wait...what just happened? I blacked out for a second.
Cheers, Galbrod.
Trisk... man, you solved the Second Apocalypse. It was crazy ;).
Quote from: GalbrodI've percieved the difference between Moe and Kelllhus as an in game - off game separation. Moe appears to see the world and the way it works as something given and is focused on 'winning the game' by clever schemes and maneovers, while Kellhus appears to be more focused on 'changing the rules of the game'.Very niceQuoteFrom this perspective it would be natural for the Tf thought in Moe's variant to become a strategy to maneover for power and eliminate any in-game threats (such as the consult). I think that it's hard to pinpoint Kellhus' variant of the Tf thought (as we can no longer follow his point of view) but it appears to be related to religious belief and the recreation of meaning within Earwa.I'll pinpoint for you the moment TTT changed for him (or as we were talking upthread about the future possibilities collapsing into a new direction (prior to this, Cnaiur noted that the Holy War + Kiyuth would make it effortless for Kellhus to travel the entire Steppe to Shimeh if he so desired, then Kellhus makes a mistake after this in the chapter by thinking that Cnaiur has told him that the pilgrimmage routes to Shimeh are closed by the holy war, so it seems that the path Kellhus took was unexpected, and it wasn't until this quoted moment that TTT took a new form):Quote from: TDTCBKellhus watched while the Scylvendi took her again. With her whimpers, her suffocated cries, it seemed the ground beneath slowly spun, as though stars had stopped their cycle and the earth had begun to wheel instead. There was something . . . something here, he could sense. Something outraged.btw, Serwe's sections on a reread are completely staggering/breathtaking. Whoa. (and in terms of something outraged, Serwe's sections following this explain just who in particular might be outraged, and Kellhus may internalize this perception (of the Gods/Ancestors Serwe so ardently attends to) as his own perception, that rather than seeing the darkness from which the gods work through the world he sees it as arising from within him. In other words he's blind to the forces that are moving him. (note in the lines preceding this, he casually mentions that he looks through her face into her soul, which is interesting if you don't take it as a metaphor, that Kellhus while narrating his internal story believes he can see the soul). And it is after this that he decides the very un-Dunyain approach that he must seize total and absolute control of the Holy War: Kellhus the mighty gorilla roars his challenge and beats his chest (and this thought all falling after Cnaiur keeps mating by being the big gorilla).
From what darkness had this come?
Something is happening to me, Father.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 383). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
But I'm getting ahead of myself, I need to get the reread threads for these chapters up and roaring.
Lol @ the Alpha male metaphor. Despite Serwe's ignorance - which seems important generally to the series, but specifically her ignorance - I always did appreciate her perspective. Serwe and Cnaiur provide a handy spectrum - those fully deluded by the Dunyain and those... albeit, rare individuals, who know enough to try and maintain their own agency in the presence of a Dunyain.
QuoteAnd it is after this that he decides the very un-Dunyain approach that he must seize total and absolute control of the Holy War: Kellhus the mighty gorilla roars his challenge and beats his chestInteresting!
Quote from: lockesnow(prior to this, Cnaiur noted that the Holy War + Kiyuth would make it effortless for Kellhus to travel the entire Steppe to Shimeh if he so desired, then Kellhus makes a mistake after this in the chapter by thinking that Cnaiur has told him that the pilgrimmage routes to Shimeh are closed by the holy war, so it seems that the path Kellhus took was unexpected, and it wasn't until this quoted moment that TTT took a new form):
And it is after this that he decides the very un-Dunyain approach that he must seize total and absolute control of the Holy War: Kellhus the mighty gorilla roars his challenge and beats his chest (and this thought all falling after Cnaiur keeps mating by being the big gorilla).
Does anyone happen to know when it is first mentioned the Kellhus either apprehends or starts using TTT?
The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.
Does anyone happen to know when it is first mentioned the Kellhus either apprehends or starts using TTT?
The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.
What the hell, you're holding out on us? Come now, lets have it. I'll not stand for this hording of crackpotery.
Sorry, but I'm at work without my books, and at my house I have no internet so I cannot give you an exact spot, but I'll give it a guess.
I though that the firs time Kellhus grasps TTT is as he is cut down from the tree and freed from the circumfix. If not there, then sometime close before that spot, around where he spends weeks in the Probability Trance trying to find a way out of the circumfixtion.
Barring that, to help narrow your search, he only sees the Thought after he is informed by one of his father's messengers about it, though I can't recall exactly when that is. Damn, looks like its time for a re-read.
Also, can you post the whole quote you are referring to? I don't seem to recall that either.
Does anyone happen to know when it is first mentioned the Kellhus either apprehends or starts using TTT?
The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.
. . .
I though that the firs time Kellhus grasps TTT is as he is cut down from the tree and freed from the circumfix. If not there, then sometime close before that spot, around where he spends weeks in the Probability Trance trying to find a way out of the circumfixtion.
The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.
What the hell, you're holding out on us? Come now, lets have it. I'll not stand for this hording of crackpotery.
That is a fine example. Cultivating analogies is always informative, not to mention, fun! Lol.aka, what comes after determines what comes before.
Bakker's big on Narrative Occlusion and how what we don't know frames what we do. It is a nice concise theory.
Which is why I still want to dream that TSTSNBN is The First Apocalypse.
That is a fine example. Cultivating analogies is always informative, not to mention, fun! Lol.aka, what comes after determines what comes before.
Bakker's big on Narrative Occlusion and how what we don't know frames what we do. It is a nice concise theory.
Which is why I still want to dream that TSTSNBN is The First Apocalypse.
@ Madness - Jesuschrist! That the third trilogy should be the first apocalypse is fucking awesome!!!
In an alternate universe, the Great Ordeal goes north under an Anasurimbor + Fanimry! Inrithism reinterpreted to be a subset of a new revelation of the Heir of Fane.
Insofar as the TTT is a plan to unify the three seas, maybe it didn't matter if the holy war failed. A failed holy war would see Kian and Co as the preeminent, or more so, nation--all of the other nations are sapped of their strength, the Scarlet Spires and Imperial Saik destroyed.
In an alternate universe, the Great Ordeal goes north under an Anasurimbor + Fanimry! Inrithism reinterpreted to be a subset of a new revelation of the Heir of Fane.
For Moe/Kel the worst thing that could have happened would be too much carnage without enough left over soldiers/sorcerers/granaries etc.
If it took the Circumfix to cause Kellhus to apprehend the TTT, I wonder if we'll get a revelation of a similar traumatic experience happening to Old Moe. Maybe related to when he lost his eyes?Flashbacks to Dune. Miles Teg's trauma.
I maintain that the Circumfixion is the moment Kellhus broke as a Dunyain and started lying to himself like a worldborn.
Kellhus' original goal was to stop his father.I'm not convinced of that. That may have been why the other Dunyain sent him, but I don't think Kellhus himself even made up his mind until well after he arrived in the Three Seas. Maybe even as late as partway through his meeting with Moenghus.
Sharmat what you say about the Circumfix resonates with me - but I would add that in TWP we saw a number of hints at Kellhus humanity and I generally believe that Kellhus believes he is something more. IMO Kellhus is more, he tore Serwes heart from his own chest and set it aflame in his hand.
When Kellhus leaves then they continue. The Conditioning in Ishual could be so strong that Kellhus never had a thought of his own. Interesting re-reading the Ishual scenes from the point of view of the Pragma as Dunyain once you know Dunyain capability.(click to show/hide)
On the other hand though - we are told Kellhus is something of a prodigy, even among the prodigious Dunyain, an outstanding Intellect standing above Genius?
Sharmat what you say about the Circumfix resonates with me - but I would add that in TWP we saw a number of hints at Kellhus humanity and I generally believe that Kellhus believes he is something more. IMO Kellhus is more, he tore Serwes heart from his own chest and set it aflame in his hand.
A little part of me thinks that TTT is something of a decoy planted by Moenghus. Here is Kellhus, traveling south, not knowing what to do except to dominate circumstances according to his breeding and training. Then a Cishaurim (which we assume IS an agent of his dad's, I guess with all the crazy shit in the books it's not impossible to think that it's a rouge) plants an idea in Kellhus head that there is a grand plan to all this madness. Did Moe really have TTT? Or did he just invent the notion of it to seize Kellhus attention?The Cishaurim in question gladly dies simply to deliver a message, and his last words are "The Logos is without beginning or end." The fact that Moenghus motivated a man to that end is another reason I have doubts that Moenghus' ability to dominate those around him was as compromised as Kellhus believes.
Does Kellhus have a peculiar blind spot where his father is concerned or was he just playing a part in Kyudea?
It's brought up a few times, particularly in WLW(click to show/hide)
Watch your sub forums for spoilers(click to show/hide)