The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Trapshadow on December 01, 2013, 08:41:52 pm
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Not sure where this thread should go; if it's been discussed at some point in the past I apologize for wasting your time.
Moenghus came to be in Skiotha's possession when he was "taken from a band of Sranc travelling across Suskara" (TDTCB p. 340).
If it was anybody but a Dunyain we have to assume that a human would have been captive and requiring rescue. Surely Moenghus would have had the capacity to dominate the sranc and condition them.
Any thoughts as to what he might have been up to? Perhaps conditioning them for either his or his son's return?
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Hm, I'd always assumed he was willingly captured or something, but I suppose conditioning if possible. Can something without a soul be conditioned? The skin-spies seemed pretty resistant to the Dunyain methods, but it might different in the case of the Sranc.
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If it was anyone other than a dunyain they would have been killed. I think that is mentioned in Cnaiur's recollections. Sranc are programmed so they can only find 'release' via murder and violation, its amazing that even a dunyain was able to forestall that fate.
Welcome to the boards =)
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If it was anyone other than a dunyain they would have been killed. I think that is mentioned in Cnaiur's recollections. Sranc are programmed so they can only find 'release' via murder and violation, its amazing that even a dunyain was able to forestall that fate.
Welcome to the boards =)
I assumed Moenghus demonstrated his chief-sranc ness by achieving release via murder and violation, thus the Sranc accepted him as one of their own. He certainly learned their language.
And it is not mysterious at all that Kellhus encountered no sranc on his sojourn to Leweth. nope, not remotely suspicious, not at all like treading a conditioned path deliberately cleared for him.
As to whether or not Moenghus was "up to something" with the sranc, that's something I've long wondered about. Perhaps he was the chief dunyain engineer on sranc reprogramming techniques?
;)
Here's a wild question. Dunyain would presumably preserve no knowledge of nonmen (Kellhus calls them 'another of Leweth's myths') nor Sranc. The Dunyain went into isolation mid apocalypse and presumably would assume they were the only surviving humans.
Fast forward 2000 years, when the dunyain encounter sranc, do they think the sranc are men, changed over 2000 years? How would they know them to not be men, Sranc are equally slaves to their passions...
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Looked it up, and Cnaiur's cousin wasn't that shocked to find Moe as a prisoner - he merely notes that 'few men survived such captivity'. I guess the Consult still needs to capture people to torture and experiment on.
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Excellent. I think this will also make a good thread to discuss the possibilities of Sranc society. For resources: TDTCB, Ch. 12 (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=17.15) and Moenghus is a lying liar who lies (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=406.0).
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Trapshadow.
Any thoughts as to what he might have been up to? Perhaps conditioning them for either his or his son's return?
Conditioning them for his son's return ;).
might different in the case of the Sranc.
Might be easier?
If it was anyone other than a dunyain they would have been killed. I think that is mentioned in Cnaiur's recollections. Sranc are programmed so they can only find 'release' via murder and violation, its amazing that even a dunyain was able to forestall that fate.
Welcome to the boards =)
I assumed Moenghus demonstrated his chief-sranc ness by achieving release via murder and violation, thus the Sranc accepted him as one of their own. He certainly learned their language.
And it is not mysterious at all that Kellhus encountered no sranc on his sojourn to Leweth. nope, not remotely suspicious, not at all like treading a conditioned path deliberately cleared for him.
As to whether or not Moenghus was "up to something" with the sranc, that's something I've long wondered about. Perhaps he was the chief dunyain engineer on sranc reprogramming techniques?
Big ol' +1. Especially, the achieving release. Snorted some coffee at that one.
Looked it up, and Cnaiur's cousin wasn't that shocked to find Moe as a prisoner - he merely notes that 'few men survived such captivity'. I guess the Consult still needs to capture people to torture and experiment on.
I want to meet the other humans that "survive."
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During Kellhus' gandoki match with the thing called Sarcellus, we get a couple of things that indicate that at least the skin spies can be conditioned:
Kellhus glanced at Sarcellus, who stood rigid, utterly absorbed by the mayhem unfolding before them. Pupils dilated. Arrested breath. Quickened pulse ...
It possesses involuntary responses.
Between heartbeats, Kellhus tracked the shift and sway of its centre of balance, an abstract point marked by the peak of its erection. He observed repetitions, recognized patterns, tested anticipations, all the while analyzing the possibilities of the game, the manifold lines of move and consequence. He restricted himself to an elegant yet limited repertoire of moves, luring it into habits, reflexive responses ..."
In case anyone doesn't already know, the transformation of unconditioned responses into conditioned responses through reinforcement of certain behaviours when given certain stimuli is operant conditioning, and is perhaps the most significant way we learn.
It's pretty clear that this is what Kellhus does to the thing called Sarcellus during the gandoki match. The fact that Sarcellus also has involuntary responses, notably sexual excitement for all things violent, makes it pretty likely that Kellhus could classically condition it to respond completely involuntarily to certain conditioned stimuli.
I doubt Kellhus could dominate what passes for a skin-spy's soul. In TTT, Cnaiur calls the skin-spies spears as opposed to the trees that men are. Kellhus seizes the roots of men and so wields their ends, but the root of the skin-spies is the hand of the consult. To wield the skin-spies, Kellhus would have to wield the consult. Still, I think Kellhus could manipulate some skin-spies to act erratically and subtly, and so disrupt some of the consult's plans (perhaps with the thing called Somandutta?). Of course, given how much we've seen Aurang interact with Sarcellus, it seems unlikely that any overt conditioning would go unnoticed for long, and I'm sure that the consult would repair any skin-spies that are not in working order. But with Moenghus and the sranc ...
I think Moenghus could definitely condition any sranc and wield them to his end. The sranc are far too loose and uncontrolled by the consult to prevent some measure of conditioning (though, as we saw through Soma's interaction with them in TWLW, they are perhaps somewhat aware of the consult). We've also seen Mekeretrig essentially heading a band of sranc, and likely getting them to do as he commands outside his direct supervision. For Moenghus, simply getting a few bands of sranc to stay away from Ishual while Kellhus heads south seems like child's play.
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For Moenghus, simply getting a few bands of sranc to stay away from Ishual while Kellhus heads south seems like child's play.
Indeed.
In fact, if Moenghus had the Sranc clear a path it would explain why Kellhus nearly starves, because a few days after Ishual he doesn't run into any game.
Kellhus takes acorns with him as travel fare, which suggests the possibility that Dunyain are vegan. This seems to be corroborated by Kellhus not attempting to catch game in the first few days. But if the Dunyain were vegan they'd have died out a long time ago, as vegan diets, being low in fat soluble vitamins found in animal foods, result in major fertility issues. Additionally, they'd be much shorter if they were traditionally vegan, and also unnable to build sufficient muscle fiber for the men to be as strong as Kellhus presents. Interestingly, in the real world, most land bound mountain cultures isolated from the rest of the world 99% of the time, whether in europe or asia or south america, had elaborate trade patterns that got them access to dried sea food roe that was especially prized for fertility and reserved for young couples. This would actually work because of the density of vitamins in such food.
There's also the possibility that the Dunyain are cannibals, which would have no real world analogue. But the Ishual valley seems sufficiently large and robust enough to sustain some agriculture and animal husbandry which should prevent such an outcome, Dunyain strictures and central planning should prevent the culture from out growing the carrying capacity of the land. Glacial melt and no-till agriculture would keep the soil robust and refreshed year to year. The mineral deposits in the glacial melt and overall quality of the vegetation would help mitigate, somewhat the poor health outcomes from the vitamin depleted vegan diet, but minerals won't substitute for the fat soluble vitamins necessary for successfully forming healthy gametes.
Interestingly, there's also a suggestion that the Dunyain have genetically engineered all the plants in the Ishual valley to be identical clones, Kellhus looks at a twig and is shocked, because he thought there was only one way a twig could grow, or as he put it, only one way a twig could grasp the sky. All leaves are identiclal. If that is the case, there's a subtle suggestion that Kellhus is a clone of Moenghus as well. Cnaiur repeatedly reinforces this notion. It would play well with Tleiliaxu parallels from Dune (which would make Kell/Moe the Duncan Idaho figure).
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For Moenghus, simply getting a few bands of sranc to stay away from Ishual while Kellhus heads south seems like child's play.
I agree, but have a caveat. Moe's departure from Ishual was 30 years previous to Kel's. Any conditioning imposed by Moe on the sranc would had to have lasted that long, which I personally find implausible. Also, it implies that Moe was aware of the fact he needed to condition the ground for Kel in the future, right from the very beginning of his journey. If that were the case, it then becomes a conspiracy by the dunyain at large to 'exile' Moe to pave the way for his son. Which begs the question: were the dunyain privy to the Celmomian prophecy, and working to bring it about? But that's probably a discussion for another thread...
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Oh nothing so complicated as that. Moe was in the north to have the Sranc cleared out of the path.
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It's pretty clear that this is what Kellhus does to the thing called Sarcellus during the gandoki match. The fact that Sarcellus also has involuntary responses, notably sexual excitement for all things violent, makes it pretty likely that Kellhus could classically condition it to respond completely involuntarily to certain conditioned stimuli.
Big +1 to the post.
Still, I think Kellhus could manipulate some skin-spies to act erratically and subtly, and so disrupt some of the consult's plans (perhaps with the thing called Somandutta?). Of course, given how much we've seen Aurang interact with Sarcellus, it seems unlikely that any overt conditioning would go unnoticed for long, and I'm sure that the consult would repair any skin-spies that are not in working order. But with Moenghus and the sranc ...
I think the most Kellhus could do with an active skin-spy is have it report to him, as well, without breaking its cover or that occurrence being noticed by its handlers... maybe.
I think Moenghus could definitely condition any sranc and wield them to his end. The sranc are far too loose and uncontrolled by the consult to prevent some measure of conditioning (though, as we saw through Soma's interaction with them in TWLW, they are perhaps somewhat aware of the consult). We've also seen Mekeretrig essentially heading a band of sranc, and likely getting them to do as he commands outside his direct supervision. For Moenghus, simply getting a few bands of sranc to stay away from Ishual while Kellhus heads south seems like child's play.
As corroboration, I think lockesnow and I mostly riff off of the idea of Sranc tribes; them having some sort of social hierarchy and rudiments of culture. Dunyain country.
For Moenghus, simply getting a few bands of sranc to stay away from Ishual while Kellhus heads south seems like child's play.
Indeed.
Also, big +1 to post.
Additionally, they'd be much shorter if they were traditionally vegan, and also unnable to build sufficient muscle fiber for the men to be as strong as Kellhus presents. Interestingly, in the real world, most land bound mountain cultures isolated from the rest of the world 99% of the time, whether in europe or asia or south america, had elaborate trade patterns that got them access to dried sea food roe that was especially prized for fertility and reserved for young couples. This would actually work because of the density of vitamins in such food.
Hmm... I'm sure I'll find it as I post but someone was making commentary about Dunyain having breeding initially because of raising some sort of livestock. Also, Esmenet mentions knowledge of Norsirai meat diet/height so Bakker's acknowledges having thought about these inquiries.
There's also the possibility that the Dunyain are cannibals, which would have no real world analogue. But the Ishual valley seems sufficiently large and robust enough to sustain some agriculture and animal husbandry which should prevent such an outcome, Dunyain strictures and central planning should prevent the culture from out growing the carrying capacity of the land. Glacial melt and no-till agriculture would keep the soil robust and refreshed year to year. The mineral deposits in the glacial melt and overall quality of the vegetation would help mitigate, somewhat the poor health outcomes from the vitamin depleted vegan diet, but minerals won't substitute for the fat soluble vitamins necessary for successfully forming healthy gametes.
Lmao. Kelmomas is about to get a bunch more badass. If the Thousand Thousand Halls is a dark labyrinth where the Dunyain literally fight for survival among themselves a la Cannabalized Battle Royale, then Kellhus has recreated a mad experiment with his son...
Interestingly, there's also a suggestion that the Dunyain have genetically engineered all the plants in the Ishual valley to be identical clones, Kellhus looks at a twig and is shocked, because he thought there was only one way a twig could grow, or as he put it, only one way a twig could grasp the sky. All leaves are identiclal. If that is the case, there's a subtle suggestion that Kellhus is a clone of Moenghus as well. Cnaiur repeatedly reinforces this notion. It would play well with Tleiliaxu parallels from Dune (which would make Kell/Moe the Duncan Idaho figure).
Great thoughts, lockesnow.
The Dunyain being Idaho make the Consult Leto II ;)...
For Moenghus, simply getting a few bands of sranc to stay away from Ishual while Kellhus heads south seems like child's play.
I agree, but have a caveat. Moe's departure from Ishual was 30 years previous to Kel's. Any conditioning imposed by Moe on the sranc would had to have lasted that long, which I personally find implausible. Also, it implies that Moe was aware of the fact he needed to condition the ground for Kel in the future, right from the very beginning of his journey. If that were the case, it then becomes a conspiracy by the dunyain at large to 'exile' Moe to pave the way for his son. Which begs the question: were the dunyain privy to the Celmomian prophecy, and working to bring it about? But that's probably a discussion for another thread...
Moenghus isn't necessarily physically bound to Shimeh, though. He could have gone back later and conditioned the ground. Though Moenghus spends some time as slave he certain gains a sufficient amount of personal agency to affect change himself...
Oh nothing so complicated as that. Moe was in the north to have the Sranc cleared out of the path.
+1.
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It's pretty clear that this is what Kellhus does to the thing called Sarcellus during the gandoki match. The fact that Sarcellus also has involuntary responses, notably sexual excitement for all things violent, makes it pretty likely that Kellhus could classically condition it to respond completely involuntarily to certain conditioned stimuli.
I think this is a bit too liberal an application for "conditioned" as its been employed by our Dunyain friend. Kellhus was classically conditioning it sure, but I doubt there was any lasting effect. Why would Moe chain and wire his captive skin-spies if he figured out some way to condition them in a useful way?
At best, like you mentioned later on, he might be able to make them act erratically.
I think Moenghus could definitely condition any sranc and wield them to his end.
The sranc are all basically like Cnaiur when he is all bloodlusty. Kellhus can on just barely keep him under control when he is there to control him.
I think the far more idiotic sranc would pose a similar challenge. I feel like as soon as the Dunyain influence was gone, they would revert back to their old ways (like the humans in Kellhus' own court). Any conditioning of these idiot creatures would need constant reinforcement.
I think Moe might have been able to condition his way out of captivity, but I don't accept that he left some kind of secret bene-gesserit-esque protection trigger. Actively keeping them away from Kellhus, maybe, though I still think he was sitting in Shimeh. Like Moe himself said, he had very little influence when he left the room. He didn't have the clout or prestige to take a sabbatical whenever he wanted.
I don't think Moenghus was special.
Interestingly, there's also a suggestion that the Dunyain have genetically engineered all the plants in the Ishual valley to be identical clones, Kellhus looks at a twig and is shocked, because he thought there was only one way a twig could grow, or as he put it, only one way a twig could grasp the sky. All leaves are identiclal. If that is the case, there's a subtle suggestion that Kellhus is a clone of Moenghus as well. Cnaiur repeatedly reinforces this notion. It would play well with Tleiliaxu parallels from Dune (which would make Kell/Moe the Duncan Idaho figure).
Thats an interesting catch with the plants. Also, if cloned, then that also suggested collaboration between the Dunyain and the Consult. Wouldn't it be ironic if Kellhus was actually destroying the past 2000 years of Dunyain planning?
For Moenghus, simply getting a few bands of sranc to stay away from Ishual while Kellhus heads south seems like child's play.
I agree, but have a caveat. Moe's departure from Ishual was 30 years previous to Kel's. Any conditioning imposed by Moe on the sranc would had to have lasted that long, which I personally find implausible. Also, it implies that Moe was aware of the fact he needed to condition the ground for Kel in the future, right from the very beginning of his journey. If that were the case, it then becomes a conspiracy by the dunyain at large to 'exile' Moe to pave the way for his son. Which begs the question: were the dunyain privy to the Celmomian prophecy, and working to bring it about? But that's probably a discussion for another thread...
Big Dunyain conspiracy, hell yes. Though I don't think Moe was in the know. I just don't think he was special enough.
Lmao. Kelmomas is about to get a bunch more badass. If the Thousand Thousand Halls is a dark labyrinth where the Dunyain literally fight for survival among themselves a la Cannabalized Battle Royale, then Kellhus has recreated a mad experiment with his son...
Hell fucking yes. Thousand Thousand Halls = Kellhus' secret passages. This is now one of my favorite nerdenals. Thank you.
What if the Celmoman Prophesy is yet to be fulfilled? Perhaps Kelmomas is the Last Scion:
Kellhus murdered all the Dunyain in Ishual to extinguish the Anasorimbor bloodline. His family is all that remains. All those capable he took, to their death, in the Great Ordeal. Kelmomas will murder those that remain, starting with his idiot brother. Once the NG is resurrected, Kelmomas will emerge from his hiding place, returning to the Three Seas as the true Harbinger.
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I don't have anything to add about Moe's original encounter, but I have wondered if this is his end goal. Ishual is invaded by Sranc, Moe is sent out to investigate, Moe returns with report that Sranc are a permanent and growing problem, Dunyain send him out to solve (perhaps with several other Dunyain), Moe decides that the only way to save Ishual ultimately is to destroy the Consult and ALL sranc, Moe sets up Kellhus to become/summon NG, NG somehow under Dunyain control, all sranc (and all derived) directed into the ark, seal the damn thing up. Lol, idk
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Lol - we need more nerdanels, mrganondorf. Don't hesitate ;).
I had linked others above, so for notation:
Why did Moenghus leave Ishual (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=51.0)
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Oh, will read. About this "nerdanel" - what is that? A google just brings me to a Tolkien reference. Do not understand
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A nerdanel is a local term denoting an intricate crackpot theory. I'm sure Madness can direct you to the thread where the etymology of the term is more thoroughly explained.
Welcome to ye btw, Ganondorf.
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Someone else explained it very concisely but I didn't find it in my cursory searching. So I offer this one in meager substitution.
Also, Nerdanel was a forum poster on Westeros who disappeared from posting sometime after TJE came out. Nerdanel had the most outlandish theories. Now Nerdanel has become synonymous with our nerdanels :).
It's like Marklar.
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Someone else explained it very concisely but I didn't find it in my cursory searching. So I offer this one in meager substitution.
Also, Nerdanel was a forum poster on Westeros who disappeared from posting sometime after TJE came out. Nerdanel had the most outlandish theories. Now Nerdanel has become synonymous with our nerdanels :).
It's like Marklar.
I smurf you
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Lol.
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Side issue: I hope we get a reveal about either old Moe or Kellhus using a pervasive network of 'turned' skin spies, have been spying on Consult for ages. I'm thinking Moe might be particularly adept for this since he had all the extra time and the markless sorcery-neuropuncture know how combo.
Could be a double feint! Consult completely aware that their skin-spies have been infiltrated, use this info to feed Kellhus/Moe false intel. :P
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Lol this is how a lot of the mysteries are being explained here.
I feel like everything ends up like "He knows they know he knows, but they don't know that he knows they know he knows about them knowing"
A feint wrapped in a mystery shrouded by an enigma.
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Standoff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHQr0HCIN2w)
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Standoff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHQr0HCIN2w)
lmao that is fucking hilarious.
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Yeah, I died. Key and Peele ;).
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Lol this is how a lot of the mysteries are being explained here.
I feel like everything ends up like "He knows they know he knows, but they don't know that he knows they know he knows about them knowing"
A feint wrapped in a mystery shrouded by an enigma.
Lol, Kellhus and Aurax both meet in the end holding a rubber chicken each. "But I thought, you thought, I..." they both say at the same time. Then they laugh, hug, and make out.
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Standoff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHQr0HCIN2w)
Fkn hilarious. My favorite line was "You shut your mouth, you dirty gun!"
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Lol - also a favorite of mine.
"I'm actually a blu-"
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Standoff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHQr0HCIN2w)
LMAO they need a whole new word for that level of standoff
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I will forever remember Key and Peele's wisdom when I ruminate on Moenghus the Elder's thought. This is what he must have seen in its thousandfold depths.
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Any dip into the probability trance between two opposing Dunyain would look something like this.
Inrilatas and Miathanet come to mind.
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Lol. Just watched it again.
"I'm not a gun, I'm a human being!"
Yeah, sure.