[mrganondorf]

Yeah little Kel is working for Kellhus as is everyone pretty much. I even half think that theo is playing charades making it appear she is more skittish than she is.  there are points in the books where little Kel thinks she is scrutinising him.

Totally agree about Theli--I think she was cognizant early, like her crazed brother, but she decided to adopt a disguise.    Team Theli!

[mrganondorf]

Maybe Kelmomas will attempt to kill Theli because then he would be the only face-reader left in the Andiamine heights?  Even more indispensable to mommy?  We've already heard that he wants to not tell if he sees a skin spy!

I wonder if there are some non-Anasurimbor face readers about?  If Kellhus could teach at least one normal dude to do a meta-gnostic cant, maybe he could make some face readers too!

[Cüréthañ]

Yeah little Kel is working for Kellhus as is everyone pretty much. I even half think that theo is playing charades making it appear she is more skittish than she is.  there are points in the books where little Kel thinks she is scrutinising him.

Kellhus tells Proyas he still has some resources in the New Empire, clearly not referring to Maitha (it's after he explains that Maitha and Esme are at odds).
Interestingly, lil Kel reveals he has been conditioned in his final scene in WLW.  We only get his exterior dialogue, but he's telling the voice how things are going with the ordeal.  He describes how the Few are culling sranc with exactitude, then...

"Father told me. In his own words, he said, "This is how it will happen, Kel."
...
"Well, mostly in his words.  Some of my words too."
...
"Secret words - he even said so.  Words that no one - no one - can hear."
"No. He never told me to kill anyone But then, why would he have to? The words were secret..."

So secret that even the inner voice is unaware of them, after counciling lil Kel to be so careful around big Kel?  Wheels within wheels.

Imagine the shit storm that little bastard will unleash if/when Esme is killed.

[The Sharmat]

I half suspect there will be another huge time jump between Unholy Consult and the third series of books, just so Bakker can depict the horrifying prospect that is Kelmomas/Samarmas wielding real political power.

[Wilshire]

"Father told me. In his own words, he said, "This is how it will happen, Kel."
...
"Well, mostly in his words.  Some of my words too."
...
"Secret words - he even said so.  Words that no one - no one - can hear."
"No. He never told me to kill anyone But then, why would he have to? The words were secret..."

So secret that even the inner voice is unaware of them, after counciling lil Kel to be so careful around big Kel?  Wheels within wheels.

Imagine the shit storm that little bastard will unleash if/when Esme is killed.

I have totally forgotten about that passage. Its easy to glance over information that the reader knows even though Kel had no business knowing.
This reminds me of Kellhus talking to Seswatha through Akka, except in reverse. During Kelmomas' whelming, Kellhus hypnotized the inner voice and spoke directly to Kelmomas, hiding Kel's conditioning from his other self.

I half suspect there will be another huge time jump between Unholy Consult and the third series of books, just so Bakker can depict the horrifying prospect that is Kelmomas/Samarmas wielding real political power.

I think there will be a time jump as well, even larger than the 20 years from PoN to AE. I haven't yet decided for what purpose though.

[mrganondorf]

@ Curethan - What you said, it makes me think that were being set up...Esmi's death was ALWAYS going to be the trigger for something bloody.

@ The Sharmat - 20 years to take us to Kelmomas' ruling the 3seas would be VERY compelling.  Like Nero or some other nasty tyrant?

[mrganondorf]

That Kellhus kept breeding beyond the children he could take with him in the Great Ordeal makes me think he was up to one of these possibilities:

1. Just keeping up appearances.  Strong Emperor make big family.

2. He was hedging his bets about exactly when the Great Ordeal would launch or if it would launch in time.  If it was too long delayed, Kellhus might eventually use all of his children during the Second Apocalypse.

3. He wanted agents in Momen.  Kelmomas age makes him particularly manipulable.

4. He was planning past the destruction of the Consult.  What's next?  Possibly if Kellhus thinks Ishual and all the Dunyain are dead, he envisions restarting the breeding program to grasp the Absolute?

Kind of weird thinking about Earwa hundred's of years after the WLW.  The Anasurimbor dynasty, of the warring fragments of it, still the most poweful because of the Dunyain blood.  But each son likely to be dumber/less talented than his father.

[The Sharmat]

5. Maithanet was right about him and in his un-Dunyain weakness for Esmi he kept up the labors for her sake and attempted to have a child that would not secretly revolt her.

Just throwing that out there.

[mrganondorf]

too true!

[Uncle Holy]

Your arguments make sense...but is it not probable that Kel is just bat-shit crazy? I paid attention to the inner voice and if that voice was Kellhus entirely, then certain things make no sense...like Kel killing Sharacinth when Kellhus (i think) wants stability in the Empire or at least has every reason to sabotage Yatwer...some of the voice's rants about killing some noble that annoyed it...the way the voice tried to hide inexpertly when Kel faced Inrilathas...is it not possible that, in the instant of the spiitting of their personalities at infancy, Sarmi's "dunyainness" was transferred to Kelmomas, making him smarter at an early age than the rest of Kellhus's progeny but also insane since in a way he has 2 consciousnesses within him? I dont know if this has been discussed here before...

[The Sharmat]

I personally think the voice in Kelmomas's head is Samarmas, and has been all along. Their souls were bound at birth, and that priest that tore them apart did it imperfectly. Kelmomas's entire soul entered his own body along with a big fragment of Samarmas's soul, leaving the tiny bit left in Samarmas' body retarded.

I also endorse a crackpot theory wherein Samarmas's soul is actually the historical dead twin of Anasurimbor Celmomas, from the time of the First Apocalypse.

[Uncle Holy]

5. Maithanet was right about him and in his un-Dunyain weakness for Esmi he kept up the labors for her sake and attempted to have a child that would not secretly revolt her.

Just throwing that out there.

Or perhaps, it's not really a weakness but there was no harm in indulging Esmi especially since when her hopes were dashed, he could shrug and say "Hey! I tried..."...plus more children meant more tools...

Immortality and bliss—this was the living promise all women bore between their thighs. Strong sons and gasping climax. If what men called truth were ever the hostage of their desires, how could they fail to make slaves of their women? To hide them like hoarded gold. To feast on them like melons. To discard them like rinds.
Was this not why he used her? The promise of sons in her hips?
Dûnyain sons.

Lying with one leg kicked free of the sheets, Kellhus stroked Esmenet’s cheek, saw past her flushed skin, beyond her beating heart, following the telltale markers all the way to her womb.
Our blood, Father … In a world of maladroit and bovine souls, nothing could be more precious.
The House of Anasûrimbor.
The Dûnyain not only saw deep, they saw far. Even if the Holy War survived Caraskand, even if Shimeh was reconquered, the wars were only beginning … Achamian had taught him that much.
And in the end, only sons could conquer death.

[The Sharmat]

"And in the end, only sons could conquer death."

Stop giving me stuff to twist for my "Samarmas is the real Harbinger" idea.

[mrganondorf]

Your arguments make sense...but is it not probable that Kel is just bat-shit crazy? I paid attention to the inner voice and if that voice was Kellhus entirely, then certain things make no sense...like Kel killing Sharacinth when Kellhus (i think) wants stability in the Empire or at least has every reason to sabotage Yatwer...some of the voice's rants about killing some noble that annoyed it...the way the voice tried to hide inexpertly when Kel faced Inrilathas...is it not possible that, in the instant of the spiitting of their personalities at infancy, Sarmi's "dunyainness" was transferred to Kelmomas, making him smarter at an early age than the rest of Kellhus's progeny but also insane since in a way he has 2 consciousnesses within him? I dont know if this has been discussed here before...

definitely!  Kel could just be crazy--which would make him a really fun emperor later!  but i really am hoping that Kel is Kellhus agent (one of them) in Momen.  idk why Kellhus would want to destabilize the empire, but he could have a reason, esp if he's planning on becoming or controlling Mog and killing off the rest of humanity ...

The Series That Shall Not Be Named is Kellhus vs Esmi for the fate of the world!!!

[Wilshire]

I personally think the voice in Kelmomas's head is Samarmas, and has been all along. Their souls were bound at birth, and that priest that tore them apart did it imperfectly. Kelmomas's entire soul entered his own body along with a big fragment of Samarmas's soul, leaving the tiny bit left in Samarmas' body retarded.

I also endorse a crackpot theory wherein Samarmas's soul is actually the historical dead twin of Anasurimbor Celmomas, from the time of the First Apocalypse.

I like all these things .