The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: BabyKellhus on August 04, 2017, 08:57:24 pm
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So in the glossary the entry for the inverse fire says it's a subparticular intentional field machine, is this just another type of hologram?
[EDIT Madness: Title.]
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So in the glossary the entry for the inverse fire says it's a subparticular intentional field machine, is this just another type of hologram?
If by hologram, you mean "made-up, nonsensical group of words," then yes, it's a hologram.
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I like to imagine before he was traumatized that Aurax was the Inchoroi version of Scotty from Star Trek.
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Poor Aurax, didn't even see it coming haha
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Well, one thing that makes no sense for me is that Kellhus, Cnaiur, even Serwa and Kosoter (if the JE is right) evade damnation becoming ciphrangs or hungers of the Outside or whatever the fuck they become. Why Shae and the senior members of the Consult cannot, they have (at least) the same will of power and resilience than the others to Ascend? Maybe they were convinced of their damnation because they were cheated by the visions of the IF.
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Kellhus conquers Hell (or perhaps has always ruled Hell). The others are devoted to things (like HATE) other than just dodging damnation (although Kosoter clearly has that on his mind too). If its a crapshoot, if the odds are being full of hate is just going to make you prime food in the Outside, then it changes nothing. Damnation is still the likely result. There's another option, in that the Inverse Fire could be poor at distinguishing between ruling Hell on a black iron throne and burning in Hell as Ciphrang food.
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Ruling Hell is still Damnation. I think of it that way, there is a room called HELL, The Gods keep throwing people in and closing the door, whatever the people do inside is their business. So, it's not a very good alternative.
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But if you are a hunger there and not fodder, hell ain't a bad place to be.
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Kellhus conquers Hell (or perhaps has always ruled Hell).
Does he?
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Well, one thing that makes no sense for me is that Kellhus, Cnaiur, even Serwa and Kosoter (if the JE is right) evade damnation becoming ciphrangs or hungers of the Outside or whatever the fuck they become. Why Shae and the senior members of the Consult cannot, they have (at least) the same will of power and resilience than the others to Ascend? Maybe they were convinced of their damnation because they were cheated by the visions of the IF.
I think it's because you need a subconscious hunger to become a Ciphrang. The God hates premeditation. That's why Shae was so damned, because he was very smart and aware being one of the most cunning sorcerers of all time.
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What was Serwa's hunger?
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But if you are a hunger there and not fodder, hell ain't a bad place to be.
It may be more uncertain. Like you are a newborn hunger for a weak meat, but still a weak meat for a stronger, deeper, ancient hunger. Or there is a problem with maintaining the "you"-part. Cnaiür, Horiötha? Ouch, doesn't matter in the Outside -- it just merges all prominent scylvendi conquerors into one Scyll cyphrang.
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Kellhus conquers Hell (or perhaps has always ruled Hell).
Does he?
Until we get scenes taking part in the Outside, we don't know for sure either way. We don't know for sure that Serwa and Kosoter are Ciphrang and not just really damned.
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Yes, it's pure speculation but it's all we have till the next book in a couple of years.
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I see no reason to think he conquers hell besides his stated intent to do so. Things didn't go as planned.
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What was Serwa's hunger?
Don't know. But she would be a cute ciphrang. Better be devoured by her and not by Kosoter, lol.
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I see no reason to think he conquers hell besides his stated intent to do so. Things didn't go as planned.
He used the past tense and appeared to truthful in his disputations with the Consult. On the other hand, things did not go as planned and those words did come out of the mouth of a Dunyain. We're lacking on details for obvious reasons. Maybe he's fodder in Hell, but he might also be hunger.
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I'll make my final interpretative decision once I get there in the canon artifact but as far as my reading goes so far I *still* attribute Kellhus' dialogue regarding "seeing himself" in the Inverse Fire and making "pacts with the Pit" to Ajokli.
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I'll make my final interpretative decision once I get there in the canon artifact but as far as my reading goes so far I *still* attribute Kellhus' dialogue regarding "seeing himself" in the Inverse Fire and making "pacts with the Pit" to Ajokli.
Perhaps, but it wasn't in boldface and avoiding damnation by pacting with the Pit is a very, very Dunyain thing to do.
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It is but that doesn't mean it was done successfully. Ajokli doesn't seem very trustworthy to me.
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I'll make my final interpretative decision once I get there in the canon artifact but as far as my reading goes so far I *still* attribute Kellhus' dialogue regarding "seeing himself" in the Inverse Fire and making "pacts with the Pit" to Ajokli.
I definitely think that what Kellhus saw was at least partially influenced by Ajokli's growing influence, but I couldn't really find any real clues that he'd been completely possessed earlier that the final moments in the Golden Room.
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Again, a close reading of the canon artifact is necessary for me.
But...
Ajokli isn't like the other Gods, or so we've been told across the series. Attributing the dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli, even pre-full-on Ghost Rider God-Mode, seems to yield more interesting interpretations than Kellhus "making pacts with the Pit."
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It is but that doesn't mean it was done successfully. Ajokli doesn't seem very trustworthy to me.
That's true. We're a little short of other information to compare with Kellhus's claims.
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Again, a close reading of the canon artifact is necessary for me.
But...
Ajokli isn't like the other Gods, or so we've been told across the series. Attributing the dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli, even pre-full-on Ghost Rider God-Mode, seems to yield more interesting interpretations than Kellhus "making pacts with the Pit."
In my mind though, I think that what we are seeing there is more of a Ajokli-spiked-Kellhus, rather than just Ajokli. To me, Ajokli making pacts with Hell really doesn't make much sense, since he (seemingly) would already have tremendous power there.
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In my mind though, I think that what we are seeing there is more of a Ajokli-spiked-Kellhus, rather than just Ajokli. To me, Ajokli making pacts with Hell really doesn't make much sense, since he (seemingly) would already have tremendous power there.
There's the tiniest spark of suspicion in the back of my mind that the truth of Ajokli's nature/origins isn't quite as simple as we've been led to believe. Yeah, Cnaiur becomes Ajokli at the end of TUC. That's pretty clear.
But just who is Cnaiur at that point? He's spent 20 years hating Kelhus, hunting Kellhus, devoting his every moment, every last smoking swazond of his crocodilian soul to seeing Kellhus brought to ruin. But hatred binds souls even more surely than love. He is still Kellhus' puppet. His soul is entirely bent around the head-on-a-pole that is Kellhus. Goaded by the hatred that Kellhus seeded in him, he has made himself into the perfect place for Kellhus to hide from the judgement of the Outside.
That's why Ajokli cannot find Kellhus' soul. Because a god cannot look inside himself. Ajokli is, at least in a sense, both Cnaiur and Kellhus, because he was created by Kellhus's soul acting upon (moving) Cnaiur's soul.
The scene in the Golden Room and Malowebi's revelation mirrors Cnaiur-as-Ajokli's blindness perfectly. Ajokli is carried into the World hidden inside Kellhus, and Kellhus is carried into the Outside hidden inside Ajokli.
And if I'm right about all that, then it actually makes perfect sense that we cannot find a logical division between Kellhus speaking and Ajokli speaking in the Golden Room scene. Because neither Kellhus nor Ajokli can tell where one starts and the other ends either. Statements that don't make sense from either standpoint exclusively are exactly what we should expect there.
I now confidently expect, at the end of TSTMNBN, to read of Mimara gazing upon Ajokli with the Judging Eye and seeing Cnaiur and Kellhus. Fucking. :)
(Of course, my track record with this sort of thing is abysmal, so...)
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And if I'm right about all that, then it actually makes perfect sense that we cannot find a logical division between Kellhus speaking and Ajokli speaking in the Golden Room scene. Because neither Kellhus nor Ajokli can tell where one starts and the other ends either. Statements that don't make sense from either standpoint exclusively are exactly what we should expect there.
Well, indeed, I don't think (until the point where his head is a gout of flame) that we can easily differentiate between Kellhus and Ajokli, because they are actually one person (until they aren't).
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EDIT1: I don't think the my-head-is-a-fountain-of-flame moment is the point at which they stop being one, though. I think that only happens when Kelmomas (inadvertently?) banishes Ajokli a few moments later. And I'm not even really sure about that.
Thought experiment: What happens if we have two sorcerers using the Cants of Compulsion on each other simultaneously? How would anyone differentiate those two souls? Would they become (at least temporarily) a single self-moving soul?
EDIT2: It's also just occurred to me that the second Decapitant (who was presumably either Ajokli or Kellhus' own head) seems to have vanished when we return to Malowebi's PoV following Kellhus' salting.
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I don't think there is necessarily any moment when they aren't, though.
Thought experiment: What happens if we have two sorcerers using the Cants of Compulsion on each other simultaneously? How would anyone differentiate those two souls? Would they become (at least temporarily) a single self-moving soul?
Well, post-Salting, I'd think they were separate at least. Perhaps not before though.
Thought experiment: What happens if we have two sorcerers using the Cants of Compulsion on each other simultaneously? How would anyone differentiate those two souls? Would they become (at least temporarily) a single self-moving soul?
I would imagine it is more akin to a positive-feedback loop though.
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Heh, you replied while I was editing.
That might just be Kellhus and only Kellhus when Kelmomas shows up. Post-salting it's irrelevant, since at that point neither Ajokli nor Kellhus is present.
(Edited once again for clarity. Sorry about this.)
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Heh, you replied while I was editing.
I really need a reread...
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In my mind though, I think that what we are seeing there is more of a Ajokli-spiked-Kellhus, rather than just Ajokli. To me, Ajokli making pacts with Hell really doesn't make much sense, since he (seemingly) would already have tremendous power there.
There's the tiniest spark of suspicion in the back of my mind that the truth of Ajokli's nature/origins isn't quite as simple as we've been led to believe. Yeah, Cnaiur becomes Ajokli at the end of TUC. That's pretty clear.
But just who is Cnaiur at that point? He's spent 20 years hating Kelhus, hunting Kellhus, devoting his every moment, every last smoking swazond of his crocodilian soul to seeing Kellhus brought to ruin. But hatred binds souls even more surely than love. He is still Kellhus' puppet. His soul is entirely bent around the head-on-a-pole that is Kellhus. Goaded by the hatred that Kellhus seeded in him, he has made himself into the perfect place for Kellhus to hide from the judgement of the Outside.
That's why Ajokli cannot find Kellhus' soul. Because a god cannot look inside himself. Ajokli is, at least in a sense, both Cnaiur and Kellhus, because he was created by Kellhus's soul acting upon (moving) Cnaiur's soul.
The scene in the Golden Room and Malowebi's revelation mirrors Cnaiur-as-Ajokli's blindness perfectly. Ajokli is carried into the World hidden inside Kellhus, and Kellhus is carried into the Outside hidden inside Ajokli.
And if I'm right about all that, then it actually makes perfect sense that we cannot find a logical division between Kellhus speaking and Ajokli speaking in the Golden Room scene. Because neither Kellhus nor Ajokli can tell where one starts and the other ends either. Statements that don't make sense from either standpoint exclusively are exactly what we should expect there.
I now confidently expect, at the end of TSTMNBN, to read of Mimara gazing upon Ajokli with the Judging Eye and seeing Cnaiur and Kellhus. Fucking. :)
(Of course, my track record with this sort of thing is abysmal, so...)
I like this a lot. They're only the Absolute as a system. Individually, each is moving/manipulating/hunting the other. Intellect and hunger. Taken as a single entity though, the system is moving itself. It bootstraps itself into existence and gives itself power from nothing.
Poor Cnaiür.
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Thought experiment: What happens if we have two sorcerers using the Cants of Compulsion on each other simultaneously? How would anyone differentiate those two souls? Would they become (at least temporarily) a single self-moving soul?.
This works both here and as potential fodder for the Shauriatas-Mutilated crackpot.
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I like this a lot. They're only the Absolute as a system. Individually, each is moving/manipulating/hunting the other. Intellect and hunger. Taken as a single entity though, the system is moving itself. It bootstraps itself into existence and gives itself power from nothing.
It's very Michael Kirkbride / Elder Scrolls, isn't it?
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At least it's not literally eating itself in violation of all natural laws like the corprus dudes.
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In my mind though, I think that what we are seeing there is more of a Ajokli-spiked-Kellhus, rather than just Ajokli. To me, Ajokli making pacts with Hell really doesn't make much sense, since he (seemingly) would already have tremendous power there.
This is why I prefer attributing all dialogue by Kellhus in the Golden Room to Ajokli because the implications are more interesting to consider, as far as my reading has gone.
We don't know anything about why Ajokli differs from the other Gods, why he's sometimes companion or foil, what he "sees that the other Gods do not" (as it's clearly not the No-God, as readers have long assumed, as per Cnaiur-cum-Ajokli at the end). We don't know that he doesn't have to make pacts with the agencies in the Hells to achieve his worldly dynasty.
EDIT2: It's also just occurred to me that the second Decapitant (who was presumably either Ajokli or Kellhus' own head) seems to have vanished when we return to Malowebi's PoV following Kellhus' salting.
Is that right? Most interesting.
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A question from a friend of mine which I think is pertinent:
How do you build a machine that ponders eternity inside space-time?
In other words how do we know the Inverse Fire shows what it purports to show?
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A question from a friend of mine which I think is pertinent:
How do you build a machine that ponders eternity inside space-time?
In other words how do we know the Inverse Fire shows what it purports to show?
I asked Bakker pretty much the same question, just worded much more generally. His answer is here:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg36469#msg36469
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http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.ca/2017/08/the-fraud-of-theology.html
Theology is mostly literary criticism, and it's always a good idea to be mindful of that.
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http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.ca/2017/08/the-fraud-of-theology.html
Theology is mostly literary criticism, and it's always a good idea to be mindful of that.
Slidell, I'm not sure if you've followed Bakker's blog (https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/) (where Ben Cain is a sometimes guest blogger) or Cain's fiction (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1078.0) thread here. There a number of RWTUD readers here.