The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: Wilshire on May 18, 2016, 03:02:08 pm
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WTF.
I could not squeeze any meaning from this phrase.
Also, is the very first POV we get with this line from Kellhus? I thought it was from something other than a Human, but subsequent instances make it appear that it was Kellhus, though why it was all italicized, I don't know. And what about eating babies?
Any clarity would be much appreciated.
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Yeah, I don't know that we have any real clue what the hell it actually is.
At first I thought it was just an abstraction. or a theological construct. However, he says how "he rips them about the pole" so it is an actual thing, not just an idea.
I think the best clue though is the end of that passage:
We pondered you, says the most crocodilian of the Sons.
“But I have never been here.”
You said this very thing, it grates, seizing the line of the horizon, wrapping him like a fly. Legs click like machines of war. Yesss ...
And you refuse to succumb to their sucking mouths, ringed with one million pins of silver. You refuse to drip fear like honey—because you have no fear.
Because you fear not damnation.
Because there is a head on a pole behind you.
“And what was your reply?”
The living shall not haunt the dead.
He doesn't fear damnation because of the head on a pole. So the head on a pole must somehow be an anchor, making the Outside unable to move him? Or a path to salvation, since the opposite is damnation, which isn't a fear?
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The passages are maddening. With italics flickingon and off, no real proclamation of who the speaker(s) is(are)... Whats going on. Who is speaking to whom.
"You refuse to drip fear like honey" - Implies, assuming one of the speakers is a Ciphrang or God, that men - specifically their fear - are sustenance for the gods. Or at least tasty treats.
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The passages are maddening. With italics flickingon and off, no real proclamation of who the speaker(s) is(are)... Whats going on. Who is speaking to whom.
Yeah, rereading it again now, I think it is Kellhus who is speaking to a ciphrang (or something like it).
Ciphrang: "We pondered you."
Kellhus: “But I have never been here.”
Ciphrang: "You said this very thing [before]."
Kellhus: "And what was your reply?”
Ciphrang: "The living shall not haunt the dead."
So, it would seem that the ciphrang is affirming that the Outside will be closed? Or maybe they are just sick of the Diamos' shit? That is kind of the living coming bother the dead...
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lol "sick of the Diamos"
Living bothering dead - Kind of like living souls wandering around in the outside asking questions and cutting off heads. How irritating, all they want to do is be peacefully dead and eat the tortured souls of man.
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lol "sick of the Diamos"
Living bothering dead - Kind of like living souls wandering around in the outside asking questions and cutting off heads. How irritating, all they want to do is be peacefully dead and eat the tortured souls of man.
Is that too much to ask?
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I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.
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I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.
It does make some sense, but that doesn't preclude my speculation on it's function though?
One question it does raise though is, how does it fit the timeline?
EDIT: Actually, tomorrow I am going to look at whole else we might know who lost a head...
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I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.
It does make some sense, but that doesn't preclude my speculation on it's function though?
One question it does raise though is, how does it fit the timeline?
I was just stating my opinion for posterity :).
I don't think Malowebi's POV has to "fit the timeline" anymore. He's like Shauriatas, except his Ten-Wretch Circle is his Head-on-a-Pole, half alive, half in Hell.
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I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.
It does make some sense, but that doesn't preclude my speculation on it's function though?
One question it does raise though is, how does it fit the timeline?
I was just stating my opinion for posterity :).
I don't think Malowebi's POV has to "fit the timeline" anymore. He's like Shauriatas, except his Ten-Wretch Circle is his Head-on-a-Pole, half alive, half in Hell.
Fair enough, I mean, to me, it matter less who it is and a lot more what it does.
You bring up a good point, that if it is Malowebi, and the commandment is to "watch" there is probably something to the head on the pole establishing a circuit of watcher and watched.
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The passages are maddening. With italics flickingon and off, no real proclamation of who the speaker(s) is(are)... Whats going on. Who is speaking to whom.
Yeah, rereading it again now, I think it is Kellhus who is speaking to a ciphrang (or something like it).
Ciphrang: "We pondered you."
Kellhus: “But I have never been here.”
Ciphrang: "You said this very thing [before]."
Kellhus: "And what was your reply?”
Ciphrang: "The living shall not haunt the dead."
So, it would seem that the ciphrang is affirming that the Outside will be closed? Or maybe they are just sick of the Diamos' shit? That is kind of the living coming bother the dead...
I concur with your reading of the "living shall not haunt..." statement. I still have no idea what the head on the pole is supposed to be. Maybe it's symbolic of his madness watching over him.
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I concur with your reading of the "living shall not haunt..." statement. I still have no idea what the head on the pole is supposed to be. Maybe it's symbolic of his madness watching over him.
I think it's definitely some kind of anchor, something to keep him able to go back and forth, but also a way for him to be sane while in the Outside.
I also think it has a lot to do with the wather/watched circuit, but that is some Locke territory...
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I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.
It does make some sense, but that doesn't preclude my speculation on it's function though?
One question it does raise though is, how does it fit the timeline?
EDIT: Actually, tomorrow I am going to look at whole else we might know who lost a head...
Yea, I believe that we learn definitely that timelines mean zilch in Earwa. The Celmommian Dream where Akka sees through Celmommas's POV is proof of this. Gilgoal shows Cel Kellhus as the harbinger of the end of the world. The head on the pole is clearly something used in the Outside, so timeline is irrelevant. Also, Koringhus (i believe) remarks how everything has ever happened, already has. Though, and we learn this through the White-Luck, the Gods can be surprised.
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Also, note that Kellhus use "there is a head on a pole behind me", during a later convo with Proyas. Mundane conversation, not in the Outside. So, who the he'll knows what it is. The Malowebi speculation is very neat, very neat indeed.
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Lol - Bakker confirms that Somnambulist's rendition is Kellhus in the Thousand Hells.
And so torched Malowebi speculation, I think :D.
Also, Somnambulist, he says we should ply you... what secret secrets do you have, friend :P?
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Lol - Bakker confirms that Somnambulist's rendition is Kellhus in the Thousand Hells.
And so torched Malowebi speculation, I think :D.
Also, Somnambulist, he says we should ply you... what secret secrets do you have, friend :P?
Yea, I thought the same, yet there are times that Kellhus references the head on a pole behind him in mundane conversation. Now, wether this is just to elude to the Outside, it might be. Interesting that where Kellhus went and the scene is specifically the Thousand Hells. So, I assume it's a specific place within the Outside? Or, is all the Outside hell?
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Koringhus. Kellhus. Serwa. All have thoughts when they think about their distinctively other inner voice.
Koringhus even talks to his.
Like samarmis and kelmomas.
There is a head on a pole behind each of them.
Samarmis can even manifest to the point of biting the neck of the head in front of him.
Then there is the confounding factor of onkis. Inrau names her the goddess of the darkness that precedes everything. Shaeonanra described her in similar terms.
Her aspect is a head on a pole.
Kellhus says in the rape of proyas scene that he discovered the head on the pole.
So I think it is a technique that may be unique to the Dunya in but could also be an onkis derived tool for navigating the outside.
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Well, when Kellhus does his, "The logos has no beginning or end, The logos has no beginning or, The logos has no beginning......" little drill with the Monk, he is taking control of that inner voice. As has Koringhus and Serwe, I assume. Its basically just your conscious, as we all know can play dirty tricks on you - hence, The Darkness That Comes Before. Now, bare with me here because my understanding of the psychological and metaphysical is minute. But, "A head on a pole behind you"= The Darkness That Comes Before. So that inner voice is basically a "real thing" that precedes you if you allow it, it is the darkness that comes before. So, Onkis being a diety of a head on a pole and she is also an aspect of the God, the darkness that comes before.
Now, if Locke is right, and the Nonmen created the Gods and knew the Aspects and such. Their name for Yatwer is the fertility principle(?), I'd love to know what Onkis's is.
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I also meant to say, that with Kelmommas, he hasn't been trained at all. We know the Voice is Sammy, or that's what it says it is, so it's a little bit of a different scenario. Regardless, I like where you're going with this Locke, and I believe there is some link here with Onkis, the DTCB, inner voices and the head on the pole behind you. Love to hear others thoughts......
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also some connection to malowebi demon head?
or some connection to Koringhus thoughts on blindness?
or some connection to what Emilidis was trying to achieve with the Black Cauldron before it was turned into a prison/punishment after the fact?
I think the demon head is why the nonmen touched kellhus in the WLW, and likewise has something to do with how the nonmen were able to more or less instantly identify that Sorweel was demon touched by Yatwer. They know some shit about this shit.
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Might not be related but the only thing I thought of when I read that was how there's a god whose idol is a head on a pole. I can't recall which exactly this was. Anyone have any thoughts?
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Might not be related but the only thing I thought of when I read that was how there's a god whose idol is a head on a pole. I can't recall which exactly this was. Anyone have any thoughts?
Onkis. Locke has some great thoughts on it over in the Ishtinberith thread.