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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
« on: July 11, 2017, 03:06:37 pm »Then it is not all of Chapter 2, there is a fair bit to go after that.
So my suspicions were confirmed, thanks, H.
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So my suspicions were confirmed, thanks, H.
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General Earwa / Re: History of Earwa from Wert
« on: July 11, 2017, 03:05:29 pm »Bakker retcons all the time. Whole cities has moved. The world and the pieces that move within it are all very fluid, which is a source of minor frustration for me.
I think I just haven't noticed the retcons of the geographic sort because that doesn't tend to hold my interest as much.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
« on: July 11, 2017, 02:16:25 pm »Can't get it to show up for me. Let me know what words it ends on and I'll check.
It ends with this sentence:
Quote
And his past had yet to be rewritten, the history of hating and, yes, even plotting against the Aspect-Emperor, this man who dared the Gods in the name of Men.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
« on: July 11, 2017, 01:55:23 pm »
For those who have TUC, can you confirm if the excerpt available on the Amazon website contains the complete 2nd chapter? Because it seems to me that, while it is a bit longer than the kobo version, it doesn't quite end as it should if it was the whole chapter.
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General Earwa / Re: Origins of sorcery
« on: July 10, 2017, 08:54:06 pm »Well, Akka's parents didn't seem to be of the Few. Not that we know for certain, but if they were, why weren't they picked up by the Mandate long before?
We don't know if being of the Few is key to something like the Judging Eye though. I think it probably is, just something other than sorcery that you can do while seeing the Onta.
They probably weren't (I'm guessing they're both deceased now as Achamian is nearing 70), but that could be explained by it being a recessive thing. I've been trying to think if we have definite confirmed examples of two non-Few parents with a child who is one of the Few, but the lack of information we have in this respect doesn't lend itself to any conclusions. Mimara could be an example, but we know nothing about her father; we don't know much about Achamian's parents, etc.
I do wonder if two parents who were of the Few would only produce children also of the Few...
The Judging Eye could be similar, but again (pre-TUC at least, no idea if we'll learn more about it then, I'm hoping so) we have little information to go on. It definitely seems to be a thing that can only manifest in women (and only those who will be pregnant at some point in their lives), if Achamian has the right of it, and I wonder if there is only one woman with the Judging Eye at any time (no evidence for it, but it's such a powerful thing that it makes me believe that isn't very common, and this idea derived from it).
Maybe sorcery itself has agency. It wants to be spoken...But then, what is it. (no NIN references please)
That's an interesting thought, I hadn't considered it before, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility in this particular fictional universe.
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General Earwa / Re: Man, this sucks!
« on: July 10, 2017, 08:14:20 pm »You only get to read it the first time once
Very true.
I have no intention of spoiling myself or anything, that very first read is too great an experience for that. I've just been checking the threads on official buys and the one with the excerpts from the first 2 TUC chapters and avoiding all the rest in that subforum.
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General Earwa / Re: Man, this sucks!
« on: July 10, 2017, 07:21:17 pm »Well, we aren't getting another book for a long, long time, imo. I wouldn't worry about conversation dying down in 3 weeks, or this forum wouldn't even exist.
5 years we waited for TGO. You'll be fine with 3 weeks, I promise, and there will be plenty who wait till the 25th or whatever.
While rationally I know fully well this is true, while I don't have the book there will be always that raw emotional "but I want to read it and talk about it right now like everyone else is doing!" reaction. I'm looking forward to sharing my TUC thoughts by the weekend/early next week or so.
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General Earwa / Re: Origins of sorcery
« on: July 10, 2017, 05:26:47 pm »Like I said, the ability to use sorcery apparently existed before the breaking-of-the-gates, so it might have nothing to do with the Nonmen.
Keep in mind that for whatever reason, schoolmen were generally banned (by their schools) from taking wives. This would make tracking the heredity of it in humans exceedingly difficult. I suspect the genetics are there in humans just as they are there in Nonmen, but humans spent their time suppressing it rather than selecting for it as the nonmen did.
Its nigh impossible, imo, for the entirety of humanities sorcery to have come from 1 single royal bloodline. I doubt it would be so widespread (geographically, if not statistically) had it only come from the Anasurimbor line and the rape of Omindala (spelling).
It's possible that there is more than one origin for sorcery as a whole, though. While I might have been too hasty in my previous post in assuming that would be its only origin, it's still possible it's one of the ways it spread through the population. And I wasn't implying it would have resulted only from the rape of Omindalea, but that was one of the bloodlines where it was present (there were likely a few others that we don't know about, and we just don't have enough information to know what they are/were).
Concerning heredity in human populations only, while it is true most Few wouldn't be direct descendants of sorcerers as they weren't allowed to marry or have children, that doesn't exclude the existence of some illegitimate descendants (that might not even know of their ancestry). In addition, it could be a recessive trait (assuming a single gene as to not make things too complicated here; it could also be a dominant trait that occurs very rarely in the general population), and while sorcerers' parents, siblings, etc. wouldn't manifest the trait, they might still carry it and pass it down. That way, sorcerers wouldn't have children themselves, but there would still be enough people carrying that gene to explain the prevalence of sorcerers and witches throughout Eärwa.
She supposedly could read the stars, which is apparently a real thing in Earwa.
Yes, that was it, I had forgotten what she could do exactly. It does seem like magic could be involved there.
That doesn't preclude her being of the Few though, per se. Although we don't really know for certain.
It doesn't, I'm just trying to think of the simplest explanation for Mimara being one of the Few. While I suppose her father could have been one too (regardless of who he was), I still believe she would have inherited it from both sides of the family. But like I said, Esmenet's mother might have not been one of the Few after all, and that gene was passed down from Esmenet's side of the family through an earlier ancestor.
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General Earwa / Re: Origins of sorcery
« on: July 10, 2017, 05:02:20 pm »Welcome to the forum, obsinate. Glad to see a new posters, great stuff!
Sorcery itself stems from the ability to see/grasp the Onta - which is a hereditary trait, at least for the Nonmen and the Inchoroi.
I wonder if sorcery might have seeped into the (human) population via Nonmen/Men interbreeding. True, as far as we know, this was an exceedingly rare occurrence and there are only two(?) confirmed cases of hybrids, but it's not like people with the potential are called the Few for no reason. It could be all sorcerers are descended from just a few lines with Nonmen ancestry.
It also seems to be an hereditary trait in Men, at least taking Kellhus' extended family into consideration (and it's not like we have a wide variety of examples in this matter either). Moënghus passed on the trait to Kellhus and Maithanet, and Kellhus to Serwa (I remember there was also some discussion about Kelmomas being one of the Few, but at least pre-TUC that was not confirmed as far as I recall). Mimara is the exception, not being an Anasûrimbor by blood, but I seem to remember Esmenet's mother was one of the Few (might be remembering incorrectly, she wasn't mentioned often and it has been a while). Even if she wasn't, Mimara could still have inherited that trait through some ancestor on Esmenet's side.
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General Earwa / Re: History of Earwa from Wert
« on: July 08, 2017, 11:53:47 pm »If Theliopa was supposed to be 16 in TJE, that's clearly gone out the window in TUC: she was born when Kellhus and Esment were sojourning in the White-Sun Palace in Nenciphon, which was in 4113. So she's 19 at the start of TJE and Serwa would logically be 1-2 years younger than her.
Bakker does have form for this kind of retcon. The Swayal Compact's HQ moves from being in Iothiah in TJE to the ruined mansion of Illisseru in TUC as well.
I kind of figured the 16(or 17)-year-old- Theliopa would be changed later on, even without access to that information from TUC, it does make more sense for the story to have her (and by extension Serwa and also Inrilatas) be older. Especially when you consider Serwa's level of power and Inrilatas' description as someone who clearly has to be a few years past the start of puberty (given that the nameless deformed child was born between Serwa and Inrilatas, having a 4116 or 4117 birth year for Serwa would result in a 4118 or 4119 birth year for Inrilatas to account for that, and Inrilatas does not look like he's only 13-14). Sometimes, a retcon really is needed.
EDIT, July 9: Because I couldn't math properly when writing this post last night - for some reason I kept thinking the current Eärwa year was 4130.
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General Earwa / Re: History of Earwa from Wert
« on: July 08, 2017, 12:27:24 pm »I went with the best guesses from the Wiki, most of them based on logical extrapolation (i.e. Theliopa being born during Kellhus and Esmenet's sojourn in Nenciphon). When you realise Serwa is only 17 (at best) in TAE, it's a bit of a jarring moment
I see, I wondered if it was the wiki or the appendices.
Do you know that Serwa and the rest might be even younger? I was going to make a thread about the younger generation's birth years at one point after I first joined the forum, so I looked up age references for them at the time. Moënghus II and Kayûtas we have definite birth years for, but Theliopa is referred to as being 16 during TJE (can't remember exactly where, but it's early in the book). Even if she was still turning 17 later in the year, that would still give her a birth year of 4115 at the earliest, and by extension Serwa would have been born in 4116 or 4117 and would be 15-16 during TAE!
True, however 17 in ancient times was different than it is now.
Yes, that's true, I suppose, and we can't judge half-Dûnyain teenagers by the same standard we would judge regular human ones either.
Still, it's impressive how powerful Serwa is at such a young age.
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General Earwa / Re: Man, this sucks!
« on: July 07, 2017, 11:49:43 pm »
Yes, my copy will only arrive on or around the 14th according to Amazon. 
I hope there's still this much activity in the TUC subforum by the time I actually get to read it.
I hope there's still this much activity in the TUC subforum by the time I actually get to read it.
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General Earwa / Re: History of Earwa from Wert
« on: July 07, 2017, 10:11:16 pm »
This is some impressive work, and it came in quite handy as a more detailed "What Has Come Before" that doesn't take as long as a proper reread. (as I don't have the time to do one before reading TUC, it helped me remember some things that weren't as fresh in myy mind anymore)
Just one question, though, are you getting some of the dates for events and birth/death years directly from the TUC appendices? Because I don't recall, for instance, ever being given exact birth years for Achamian, Esmenet, Kellhus, and most of the Anasûrimbor children. Sorry if I'm being nitpicky, but I have an interest in timelines, and figuring out everyone's ages is kind of an obsessive thing of mine. I remember Achamian, Cnaïur, Esmenet, Serwë, etc. had their ages stated in the appendices for the first series, but it did span a few years (4109-4112, right?) so that wasn't exact.
(as I don't have the time to do one before reading TUC, it helped me remember some things that weren't as fresh in myy mind anymore)Just one question, though, are you getting some of the dates for events and birth/death years directly from the TUC appendices? Because I don't recall, for instance, ever being given exact birth years for Achamian, Esmenet, Kellhus, and most of the Anasûrimbor children. Sorry if I'm being nitpicky, but I have an interest in timelines, and figuring out everyone's ages is kind of an obsessive thing of mine. I remember Achamian, Cnaïur, Esmenet, Serwë, etc. had their ages stated in the appendices for the first series, but it did span a few years (4109-4112, right?) so that wasn't exact.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [No Spoilers] TUC Hype!
« on: July 06, 2017, 10:45:38 pm »
No news on the preorder from Amazon, yet I really though they'd ship it today. I hope I hear from them soon, I want to join the TUC party so bad...
EDIT, July 7th: Apparently it shipped today and is expected to arrive around the 14th, hopefully it will indeed be here by that date (or maybe a bit earlier? wishful thinking).
I hope I hear from them soon, I want to join the TUC party so bad...EDIT, July 7th: Apparently it shipped today and is expected to arrive around the 14th, hopefully it will indeed be here by that date (or maybe a bit earlier? wishful thinking).
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General Earwa / Re: Iëva's age?
« on: July 05, 2017, 06:51:54 pm »It would probably be difficult, but probably not impossible, given she might have come to the marriage with her own lady-in-waiting, or some other servants, who might have felt a greater loyalty to her than to the Anasûrimbor house. Presumably, as an 8 year old, you would think she had some kind of supervision. Even a pretty advanced 8 year old, I would think, would have someone on hand most of the time, given she was not with her parents.
It's not too implausible that the marriage was done to cement some alliance with a hostile or rival house. Those servants might well have still had some level of emnity toward the Anasûrimbors and had further reason to sabotage the establishment of an heir. Of course, there also is the implausible "ancient skin-spies" idea too.
Could be, I suppose, though out of the possibilities you pointed out, loyal servants are indeed more likely than proto-skin spies. Other agents of the Consult could still be possible, I guess.
I wonder which family she might have come from, but I can't remember if we know enough about the important royals and nobles of that time period to even be able to make a guess.
On the Anasûrimbor line - do we know for sure if Nau-Cayûti was Celmomas' direct heir, or is there still that question regarding Ganrelka's paternity? It would still have been important for Nau-Cayûti and Iëva to produce an heir if Ganrelka was Celmomas' elder son, though not as much...
She could, of course, have been set up the whole time. Lured to sin, sin to escape sin, then abandoned by the Consult anyway.
That just makes the whole thing more tragic in its entirety, but (in my opinion) that's just another point in favour of the complexity and hidden layers and details of this series.
