[TGO SPOILERS] The DREAMS

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Blackstone

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« on: May 25, 2016, 02:32:59 pm »
The dream sequences have always been my favorite part of the books. I think the dream sequences in TGO are by far the most compelling from the reinterpretation of the Celmomian Prophecy to the final sequence in which we glimpse the No-god. I was just wondering what everyone else's thoughts were on them, specifically the final one.
I reread it last night, and I had a few thoughts/questions.
1. Who is the person in the dream? - I first thought it was Nau-Cayuti, but it specifically says it's a nameless wretch. The other NC dream sequence seemed self aware that it was NC and this one did not. I'll concede that the trauma of finding one's self in the belly of Golgotterath could eventually wipe away the sense of self, but I think this is meant to be someone else.

2. Is this dream a remembrance of the FA or the SA? Akka's thought that the SA had begun seems to indicate that perhaps it is a recent event, perhaps a nameless wretch that had been captured in the last few years or maybe the last few weeks.

3. Evidence of a soul trap? Several people on the forum have theorized that the No-god is a sort of soul trap that becomes animated when enough souls are captured by the sarcophagus. This sequence seems to support that idea, what with the line of captives one by one drawing closer to the No-god's sarcophagus.

4. Did we just see the Inverse Fire? The nameless captive notices one part of the path which has a ceiling of fire. The Nonmen standing to the side are all staring up at the flames with tears streaming down their cheeks. The captive sees his reflection in the floor and thinks that his head is wreathed by Hell itself. As the Inverse fire, it seems a little underwhelming, however, we are seeing it interpreted through a dream of a person walking towards abomination of the highest order. Perhaps this is just part of the Inverse Fire. Edit - It says he knows the fire, and his reflection "wore Hell as a wig."
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 04:43:58 pm by Madness »
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2016, 03:20:41 pm »
More thoughts later, but if it is a 'recent' depiction as you suggest, I suppose the perspective could be from the Werigda chieftain the Consult captured at the end of TWP.  He was beaten and battered (as I'm sure all captives are), and he was of the old blood, maybe creating some connection via the Dreams to Akka.  Just a thought.  If it's not Nau-Cayuti, I guess it could be this guy (Aengelas, I think his name was).
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2016, 03:35:43 pm »
Wait, which dream was this?  Could you give me a page number or so?

I want to reread it when I get home.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 03:38:24 pm »
It's literally the last two pages of the book.  That dream wasn't in the draft, and I'm closing in on it like a shark.
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2016, 04:48:13 pm »
It's literally the last two pages of the book.  That dream wasn't in the draft, and I'm closing in on it like a shark.

Heh, ok, I was in a hurry finishing the book, so that explains why I am so hazy on it.  I'll reread it when I get home, I really should have brought it to work today though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2016, 11:13:22 am »
Alright, I reread it.  My thoughts along your points:

1.) My best guess is that it's Sibawûl, or some other member of the Scalded.  This comes from the line, "a shambling line, nude, white where not soiled or scabbed or welted."  It would also make sense why whoever it was has no teeth.  Although, Akka has the same dream in WLW, Chapter 3, where he says that his teeth were "beaten from his skull."  That doesn't prelude it being due, in part, to the Scalding though.

2.) The fact that whoever it is is referred to as a "stranger" to Akka kind of implies to me that it is not the FA, but the Second, which is why he wakes up and says to himself, "The Second Apocalypse had begun."

3.) I'm not sure, but the sreams inply torture.  The abrupt cutting off of them, death.  So, they are indeed killing them, to stoke the Inverse Fire?

4.) Which of course, brings us right to it.  The Golden Room.  I do believe what we are seeing is the Inverse Fire.  Why is it Inverse?  Well, Akka says in the dream: "to flee degradation on had to flee the World entire, to become a flame that burned no fuel."  Also, the Golden Room has a "ceiling of flame."  "A single glance exhausted his daring, a peek into fires burning upon fires, a bottomless regression."  So, a fire that is above, a fire that burns no fuel, a fire that is an endless regression.  It is inverted from how we would think of fire and burning and Hell itself.  Hell, below not above; also burning as consumptive and transformative is how we would experience or describe fire in the real world.

Further evidence that it is indeed the Inverse Fire the Nonmen are staring at: "Tears enamelled their cheeks with furnace reflections, silken wings of saffron and crimson, damnation signed in passerine lights. They paid no heed to the mortals chained in their midst, for they were every bit as enslaved."

I have no idea what "passerine" is supposed to mean here, the only definition I could find online refers to birds.  However, it sure does seem like it is the Inverse Fire they stare at, enslaving themselves.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2016, 03:24:17 pm »
I'm not sure it matters who the person is (though it's fun to speculate). The previous theory was that Akka could have dreams of NC because Seswatha was secretly NC's father (and he still might be), but now he's had a dream as Celmomas, so there's no blood relation there. I definitely don't think the "stranger" is a broken NC, because the Consult seemed pretty clear that they were going to physically destroy him.

I'm not sure the screams imply torture so much as they imply processing. I imagine a bashrag breaking the captives chains, and then pushing him into some sort of soul removing chamber attached to the sarcophagus.

I imagine the word "passerine" in this context means the lights of the Inverse Fire are fluttering on the faces of the nonmen. The more I think about it, the more I am sure this is the Inverse Fire.
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2016, 03:45:46 pm »
Yeah, I'm definitely buying it as the Inverse Fire.  Problem is it doesn't tell us much at all about it.  I have a feeling though that we might never find out it's "true nature."  Maybe if Kellhus shows up in the Golden Room?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2016, 01:58:16 pm »
I was wondering if you guys thought we had seen the Inverse Fire, and indeed it seems we have. Aside, from a fire on the ceiling, what made me instantly grasp it as the IF, was the mention of Nonmen, just standing and staring at the Damn thing.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2016, 01:00:19 am »
So you guys think that the final dream is actually the beginning of the SA, like he's dreaming of the present? While you could be right, thats not how I read it. And, I think you guys are forgetting one critical aspect of the Dreams. Timing. Akka, knows that what he dreams and when are tied to the events about to happen. Him and Mimara discuss this in the epilogue of WLW. The reason he knows the SA is beginning because he has tied the significance of the dream and it's timing. That dream is just an extension of the previous dreams of the same sequence. In those, he was always a nameless wretch with no teeth, inching forward and forward towards a "golden room". So, in this one, he glimpses the IF and then is walked towards the No-God. He wakes up knowing that now, the SA has truly begun.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2016, 03:15:45 am »
Something I just thought about that hasn't been discussed yet. The Celmommas dream, through the eyes of Celmommas himself. I mean, this is confirmation here. Akka says, "Exactly as Seswatha had said." (paraphrasing, no longer have book), confirmation that Seswatha didn't "make up" the Celmommian Prophecy, as so many have speculated. When Gilgoal speaks to Celmommas, he says, "Brave King.....Brave, broken king.....behold, son of a hundred fathers......behold, the end of the World.". So, are we to take that as to mean that Kellhus is the harbinger of the end of the World, ere the SA. Or, that Kellhus is the end of the World. My opinion is that of the latter. Now, I don't mean that Kellhus is going to go over to the Consult and reduce the population to 144,000. No, through the eyes of the Gods(100) though, he is. This is why they fight Kellhus, because their skewed vision of seeing TIME, their final sight is Kellhus.....then the end. Its the end of their world, not of Man's. I think that this is a huuuge clue as to what Kellhus's ultimate goal really is. Its to shut off the World to the Outside. Wether that involves awakening the God (the one seeing through Mimara's JE) I'd have to assume yes, yes it does. Huh, I just had a thought that twists my mind in knots and knots. What if Kellhus shutting the Outside to the world, and him reaching the Absolute, essentially makes him the GOD, thus awakening him. Well, that's Kellhus looking through that JE. Crackpot, I know, but Meppa=Moe+Cnaüir is lost to me. So, let a man have a crackpot, will you?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 03:18:15 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Blackstone

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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2016, 02:33:50 pm »
Something I just thought about that hasn't been discussed yet. The Celmommas dream, through the eyes of Celmommas himself. I mean, this is confirmation here. Akka says, "Exactly as Seswatha had said." (paraphrasing, no longer have book), confirmation that Seswatha didn't "make up" the Celmommian Prophecy, as so many have speculated. When Gilgoal speaks to Celmommas, he says, "Brave King.....Brave, broken king.....behold, son of a hundred fathers......behold, the end of the World.". So, are we to take that as to mean that Kellhus is the harbinger of the end of the World, ere the SA. Or, that Kellhus is the end of the World. My opinion is that of the latter. Now, I don't mean that Kellhus is going to go over to the Consult and reduce the population to 144,000. No, through the eyes of the Gods(100) though, he is. This is why they fight Kellhus, because their skewed vision of seeing TIME, their final sight is Kellhus.....then the end. Its the end of their world, not of Man's. I think that this is a huuuge clue as to what Kellhus's ultimate goal really is. Its to shut off the World to the Outside. Wether that involves awakening the God (the one seeing through Mimara's JE) I'd have to assume yes, yes it does. Huh, I just had a thought that twists my mind in knots and knots. What if Kellhus shutting the Outside to the world, and him reaching the Absolute, essentially makes him the GOD, thus awakening him. Well, that's Kellhus looking through that JE. Crackpot, I know, but Meppa=Moe+Cnaüir is lost to me. So, let a man have a crackpot, will you?
Ha ha. I think you make a good point about the end of the world being the end of the gods' ability to see the world. I thought the same thing when I read it. As a Kellhus apologist, I don't think his end goal is to reduce the population to 144k, so it will be through some other means.

So you guys think that the final dream is actually the beginning of the SA, like he's dreaming of the present? While you could be right, thats not how I read it. And, I think you guys are forgetting one critical aspect of the Dreams. Timing. Akka, knows that what he dreams and when are tied to the events about to happen. Him and Mimara discuss this in the epilogue of WLW. The reason he knows the SA is beginning because he has tied the significance of the dream and it's timing. That dream is just an extension of the previous dreams of the same sequence. In those, he was always a nameless wretch with no teeth, inching forward and forward towards a "golden room". So, in this one, he glimpses the IF and then is walked towards the No-God. He wakes up knowing that now, the SA has truly begun.

You make a compelling point. Counter to that though, the reason I thought it was something that has happened recently is the presence of the nonmen. We know that there are a bunch of them at Golgotterath now (per the Lastborn) so it makes sense that there are several standing around and looking at the Inverse Fire. They seem like new converts, and I don't recall that a lot of nonmen fought for the Consult in the FA.
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MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2016, 03:29:56 pm »
The Inverse Fire.......Damnation porn.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2016, 08:58:44 am »
One of the hot topics since I've started discussing these books, is who is guiding Akka's dreams since TJE? Some say Kellhus, I've always been a supporter of Seswatha. Yet, as another pet theory has died (my Who is the Manipulator?), it's quite clear who is guiding them. The Whore. Fate. Yes, Anaegke(sp?). It's been made exceedingly clear by TGO that the Gods have a hand in all the story arcs. Kelmommas/Ajokli, Sorweel/Yatwer and Akka/Anaegke. It makes sense too, with the way Akka has basically worshipped or cursed, yet always remarked on how Fate has controlled his life, or had a huge hand in it, since TDTCB. Also, we know that the Gods can see all of time and everything that's supposed to happen, will. Akka is simply Anaegke's throw of the numbersticks, if you will. Trying to change that end all the Gods see, Kellhus.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wic

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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2016, 05:12:35 pm »
That's a good point MSJ, that the gods have been touching on the other arcs (and arguably, TGO/Gilgaol) so why not?

Has there been any talk in the books about how dreaming might make one more sensitive to the Outside, akin to madness?

Maybe Anagke simply has an interest in seeing prophecies fulfilled, or in seeing the SA mirror the FA.