[TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam

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Dunkelheit

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« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2017, 08:49:39 pm »
Dunk, that's interesting, but seems complex- kind of like the multiverse theory- if every time the gods mess with time, another version of the outside pops into existence there would be a multitude of forces on the reality of Earwa. That being said, I can see that these splits in time don't happen often- 2x was the white luck stymied. Dunno, I just think it is overly complex. ::)

Yeah, I would like to simplify this theory a little:
So events in Earwa changes the gods. These new gods can and already have changed the past. So when (or maybe if) the world closes, presumably this too will change the gods and these gods will think the world has always been closed. But these gods can not change the past since the world is closed to them, which is why we don't hear from them.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 08:51:25 pm by Dunkelheit »

boneclinkz

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« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2017, 02:30:23 pm »
I'm glad I'm not the only person who was disappointed by this book. The Great Ordeal was such a wonderful setup and this could have wrapped up the series as nicely as The Thousandfold Thought did for TPON, which holds a place in my heart as an absolute masterpiece of fantasy writing.

I don't know what happened during the writing of The Unholy Consult, but the wheels completely fell off. The parts of the story that are actually intriguing are few and far between, which is pretty uncharacteristic for this author. I think my favorite part of the whole novel was a throwaway section where Aurang sits on the horn and reminisces about the different names he's had since Arkfall.

There could have been chapters for key members of the Consult as they prepare for the arrival of the great ordeal, and I bet it would have been great reading. But instead, we got 200 pages of MEAT MEAT MEAT and it got to the point where the sodomy, cannibalism, and insanity of the believer kings became boring to read about. Yes, yes, we get it, THE MEAT!

And look, I don't need a happy ending. I was half expecting Kellhus to sacrifice the great ordeal just like he assumed his father would do. Even the Golgotterath-torpos-possession thing had promise, but for some reason we just kinda glossed over that. The ending we got though, that was insulting. Yeah, we know how the Great Ordeal ends, but what about the characters that are still alive? You know, the things that keep us engaged in the story? And why even bother with the boring appendices that don't reveal any new insight?

So for anyone else annoyed by this "finale", just add this after the final sentence.

"Tsuramah waxed quite phallically, strung like a bow across the horizon. Kayutas, Serwe, Esmenet, Achamian, Mimara, Mimara's baby, Mohengus, and all Scylvendi, Nonmen, and Ordeal forces were consumed. Everyone went to hell except Mimara, Esmenet, and maybe Mimara's baby? The (now skeletal) Cnair urs Skiotha remains animated by hell demons and rides the whirlwind on a nimil surfboard."

Wilshire

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« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2017, 03:55:23 pm »
It's so great that people have such intense reactions to the book. Everyone should check out the most recent author q/a thread - it's exactly as expected, even wanted. We all appreciate the contributions each of you are making to the success of Bakker. Write reviews, on every site! Differing opinions draw people in : "gee, I wonder what all the hubbub is about, better look for myself". After all, nothing draws a crowd like a crowd.
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Madness

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« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2017, 02:34:57 pm »
So for anyone else annoyed by this "finale", just add this after the final sentence.

"Tsuramah waxed quite phallically, strung like a bow across the horizon. Kayutas, Serwe, Esmenet, Achamian, Mimara, Mimara's baby, Mohengus, and all Scylvendi, Nonmen, and Ordeal forces were consumed. Everyone went to hell except Mimara, Esmenet, and maybe Mimara's baby? The (now skeletal) Cnair urs Skiotha remains animated by hell demons and rides the whirlwind on a nimil surfboard."

Lmao.

That's great, though, I'm guessing it's not going to go down quite like your projecting.

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Spooky

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« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2017, 02:45:41 pm »
It would have been better than what we got. The Q&A had a whole lot of unrepentant teen espoused by Bakker. "I intended it to be confusing!"/ "My devoted and slavish proof readers weren't confused so clearly passionate reader and first time poster YOU ARE WRONG".

Good lord, at some point you have to age and maturity out of such responses.

The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.

I hope he changes that tone or the Reddit AMA is going to be...interesting.



"I meant the finale and denouement to be confusing/inspire vigorous disagreement/cause spontaneous outrage on all available niche sites" said no honest serious writer or communicator ever.


Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 02:51:04 pm by Spooky »

Madness

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« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2017, 02:51:53 pm »
It would have been better than what we got. The Q&A had a whole lot of unrepentant teen espoused by Bakker. "I intended it to be confusing!"/ "My devoted and slavish proof readers weren't confused so clearly passionate reader and first time poster YOU ARE WRONG".

Good lord, at some point you have to age and maturity out of such responses.

The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.

I hope he changes that tone or the Reddit AMA is going to be...interesting.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I do not perceive and would not describe Bakker's behavior the same as you.

Also, it doesn't help anyone's perception that he diligently responded to each comment in the thread and fell victim to himself, our servers, our theme, our forum, or any other number of foibles.

Also, also, I made a new thread to discuss the Gods and their interaction with Earwa.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2017, 02:55:15 pm »
"I meant the finale and denouement to be confusing/inspire vigorous disagreement/cause spontaneous outrage on all available niche sites" said no honest serious writer or communicator ever.
I'm confused. Why is this a bad thing?

Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
I've actually read that moment as quite epic. And funny, which did not diminish its darkness in any way. I even specifically cited it to one of my friends.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2017, 06:23:05 pm »
It would have been better than what we got. The Q&A had a whole lot of unrepentant teen espoused by Bakker. "I intended it to be confusing!"/ "My devoted and slavish proof readers weren't confused so clearly passionate reader and first time poster YOU ARE WRONG".

Good lord, at some point you have to age and maturity out of such responses.

The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.

I hope he changes that tone or the Reddit AMA is going to be...interesting.



"I meant the finale and denouement to be confusing/inspire vigorous disagreement/cause spontaneous outrage on all available niche sites" said no honest serious writer or communicator ever.


Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
Lol'd. "The author didn't do what I wanted, he's an immature teen".
Stay tuned for the AMA.

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2017, 07:12:02 pm »
The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.
Well, he admits that he has to resist the temptation to make everything a mystery, so this is probably a fair point. But what do you mean by misinterpret? Are you making the assumption that there is one correct interpretation? I think it's pretty clear that he has left things up for interpretation on purpose, and you see that from his interviews too. You might take umbrage with that if you like, but you can't say that it wasn't intended.

CondYoke

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« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2017, 07:29:35 pm »


Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
I've actually read that moment as quite epic. And funny, which did not diminish its darkness in any way. I even specifically cited it to one of my friends.
[/quote]
Yeah, I loved this scene.  Great playing with the trope.  I mean really, if medieval dragons of the type St.George was slaying captured virgins, and could talk, I'm sure they would not swear. Yeah, right.   Dragons are creatures of the darkness and depraved. The fact that so many are taken aback at the c- word...

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2017, 08:12:19 pm »
Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
I've actually read that moment as quite epic. And funny, which did not diminish its darkness in any way. I even specifically cited it to one of my friends.
I'm also in the camp that this was a really good scene. I mean, are we forgetting that dragons were made by the Inchoroi? Of course it starts going off about cunny and maidenhead.

Wilshire

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« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2017, 09:10:50 pm »
...
Lol'd. "The author didn't do what I wanted, he's an immature teen".
Stay tuned for the AMA.

Pretty much my take. I'd love to here how  Spooky feels this response is somehow sophisticated and "adult"(?)/grown-up, as I can't figure it out myself.
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Blackstone

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« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2017, 09:19:50 pm »
I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.
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themerchant

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« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2017, 09:23:02 pm »
So much certainty and absolute positions i can see why the books didn't jive with you Spooky :)

What's the actual meat page count? 31 pages? 2 Chapters? Something like that?

« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 09:24:34 pm by themerchant »

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2017, 09:28:25 pm »
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.