[TGO SPOILERS] Momemn

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« on: May 12, 2016, 01:45:52 am »
The Fanim appear outside Momemn as Esmenet reconciles with Maithanet only as he is murdered by the White-Luck Warrior...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 04:44:49 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 10:21:29 am »
The Fanim appear outside Momemn as Esmenet reconciles with Maithanet only as he is murdered by the White-Luck Warrior...

Well, we don't see it, but I can't imagine that Psatma had nothing to do with the timing.  No doubt she had them arrive at the "opportune" time...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

mrganondorf

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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 03:18:33 pm »
Kellhus using the "do-over" trick!  Has he been doing this all along???  Imagine that he met his father 10,000 times and found the just right spot to kill old Moe without being harmed!

I wonder though if Kellhus can only use the trick with Kelmomas...

If Kellhus is editing time, it might be that the Series That Shall Not Be Named is going to be the First Apocalypse.  Kellhus realizes that he just can not stop NG's return, so he goes way back.  I bet he lets the First Apocalypse play out just so and then when NG is struck down makes his move to finish off the Consult.

Blackstone

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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 07:27:50 pm »
Kellhus using the "do-over" trick!  Has he been doing this all along???  Imagine that he met his father 10,000 times and found the just right spot to kill old Moe without being harmed!

I wonder though if Kellhus can only use the trick with Kelmomas...

If Kellhus is editing time, it might be that the Series That Shall Not Be Named is going to be the First Apocalypse.  Kellhus realizes that he just can not stop NG's return, so he goes way back.  I bet he lets the First Apocalypse play out just so and then when NG is struck down makes his move to finish off the Consult.
Which do-over trick?

I had to go back and check, you'd think that he beheaded Malowebi after he defeated Meppa (the sword coming down and all). I had assumed the final scene in the chapter was just out of sequence, but when Kellhus finds Esmi (after defeating the Fanim and putting down Meppa like a punk) he still has both decapitants on his belt. So, yeah, I kind of wonder if he is editing time also.

Speaking of Meppa, I feel like it's safe to say that neither Moe nor Cnaiur, singularly or as one soul, quantum leaped into another body to form a super Cish.
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 07:41:07 pm »
I had to go back and check, you'd think that he beheaded Malowebi after he defeated Meppa (the sword coming down and all). I had assumed the final scene in the chapter was just out of sequence, but when Kellhus finds Esmi (after defeating the Fanim and putting down Meppa like a punk) he still has both decapitants on his belt. So, yeah, I kind of wonder if he is editing time also.

Yeah, something is up with that.  There shouldn't be a break between him swinging and Malowebi's head seeing Kellhus replace him, yet, there is...

I don't think he is editing time, because if he was, his power would literally be unlimited.  He could have just went back, killed Meppa before Meppa was even Meppa.  Or move Esmenet before she even walked into the throne room.

Something is up with the whole "this has already happened" and somehow Kellhus is manipulating that.  How? I don't know...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 08:09:39 pm »
Also, as I read it, Meppa is still very much alive. I wonder what Kellhus has planned for him. The Consult seemed quite bent on destroying the Cishaurim in PON, and we know that Indara's Waterbearers were not around during the FA, so I wonder if there is something about the Psukhe that will really mess with the No-God.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 08:29:37 pm »
Also, as I read it, Meppa is still very much alive. I wonder what Kellhus has planned for him. The Consult seemed quite bent on destroying the Cishaurim in PON, and we know that Indara's Waterbearers were not around during the FA, so I wonder if there is something about the Psukhe that will really mess with the No-God.

Madness and I were talking about this.  Would love to see a twin-assault on the Consult, Kellhus and Meppa just tearing shit up.  The way it reads (their confrontation) it very much seemed that Meppa almost killed Kellhus, if only it weren't for Malowebi's Chalice.  Now, he's Kellhus after all, so that didn't happen.  However, it begs the question:  would Meppa's ocean of Water be enough to overcome other Gnostic sorcerers?  Akka related in PON that he took out a Cishaurim in the past.  But he's not Kellhus and that other Cish wasn't Meppa.  Just makes me wonder at Meppa's power level relative to the average Gnostic sorcerer.  Seems like he could hold his own.
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Blackstone

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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 10:05:00 pm »
Also, as I read it, Meppa is still very much alive. I wonder what Kellhus has planned for him. The Consult seemed quite bent on destroying the Cishaurim in PON, and we know that Indara's Waterbearers were not around during the FA, so I wonder if there is something about the Psukhe that will really mess with the No-God.

Madness and I were talking about this.  Would love to see a twin-assault on the Consult, Kellhus and Meppa just tearing shit up.  The way it reads (their confrontation) it very much seemed that Meppa almost killed Kellhus, if only it weren't for Malowebi's Chalice.  Now, he's Kellhus after all, so that didn't happen.  However, it begs the question:  would Meppa's ocean of Water be enough to overcome other Gnostic sorcerers?  Akka related in PON that he took out a Cishaurim in the past.  But he's not Kellhus and that other Cish wasn't Meppa.  Just makes me wonder at Meppa's power level relative to the average Gnostic sorcerer.  Seems like he could hold his own.
I think I read that much differently. I'll have to go check. It seemed to me that Kellhus was just studying Meppa and was in no real danger.

I know there's a lot of disagreement about this on the forum, but I rank MOST Cishaurim below MOST anagogic sorcerers. I think that is something specific about the Psukhe that the Consult fears. That being said, probably Meppa is stronger than most of the (now dead) Cishaurim primaries.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 10:12:14 pm »
To clarify, he almost killed Kellhus at the very beginning of his assault on Kel (or seemed to have).  Malowebi was bearing the brunt of the onslaught, which allowed Kel to assess Meppa, then deal with him.  My poorly-worded point was that it seemed as if Meppa's initial torrent pretty much tore through Kel's wards and the only thing that saved him in that moment was Malowebi's Chalice.
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 10:20:41 pm »
To clarify, he almost killed Kellhus at the very beginning of his assault on Kel (or seemed to have).  Malowebi was bearing the brunt of the onslaught, which allowed Kel to assess Meppa, then deal with him.  My poorly-worded point was that it seemed as if Meppa's initial torrent pretty much tore through Kel's wards and the only thing that saved him in that moment was Malowebi's Chalice.

Yes, I do see what you are saying, but the assumption in your statement is that Malowebi's pseudo-anagogic chalice is stronger than gnostic wards, and I don't buy that. My opinion :D
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 12:11:37 am »
Yeah, I see the absurdity of that.  Just re-read the chapter.  Seems I was misplacing events in my faulty memory.  I concede, good sir.
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 10:25:02 am »
Chances are that it is literally impossible to kill Kellhus using sorcery though, since he can teleport wherever he wants.  You'd have to hit him so hard as to break meta-Gnostic Wards but also so fast that he wouldn't realize the Wards were breaking so as to just teleport away.

I don't think we've seen anyone with that sort of power.  I don't think it's likely we ever will either.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2016, 02:48:10 pm »
Kellhus using the "do-over" trick!  Has he been doing this all along???  Imagine that he met his father 10,000 times and found the just right spot to kill old Moe without being harmed!

I wonder though if Kellhus can only use the trick with Kelmomas...

If Kellhus is editing time, it might be that the Series That Shall Not Be Named is going to be the First Apocalypse.  Kellhus realizes that he just can not stop NG's return, so he goes way back.  I bet he lets the First Apocalypse play out just so and then when NG is struck down makes his move to finish off the Consult.

Which do-over trick?

I had to go back and check, you'd think that he beheaded Malowebi after he defeated Meppa (the sword coming down and all). I had assumed the final scene in the chapter was just out of sequence, but when Kellhus finds Esmi (after defeating the Fanim and putting down Meppa like a punk) he still has both decapitants on his belt. So, yeah, I kind of wonder if he is editing time also.

Speaking of Meppa, I feel like it's safe to say that neither Moe nor Cnaiur, singularly or as one soul, quantum leaped into another body to form a super Cish.

I'm not sure about editing time but that one - I feel - results from Bakker not reorganizing the chapters.

However, the relationship between the Gods, the Outside, and the World and how Kellhus has co-opted that still confuse me.

Also, as I read it, Meppa is still very much alive. I wonder what Kellhus has planned for him. The Consult seemed quite bent on destroying the Cishaurim in PON, and we know that Indara's Waterbearers were not around during the FA, so I wonder if there is something about the Psukhe that will really mess with the No-God.

Madness and I were talking about this.  Would love to see a twin-assault on the Consult, Kellhus and Meppa just tearing shit up.  The way it reads (their confrontation) it very much seemed that Meppa almost killed Kellhus, if only it weren't for Malowebi's Chalice.  Now, he's Kellhus after all, so that didn't happen.  However, it begs the question:  would Meppa's ocean of Water be enough to overcome other Gnostic sorcerers?  Akka related in PON that he took out a Cishaurim in the past.  But he's not Kellhus and that other Cish wasn't Meppa.  Just makes me wonder at Meppa's power level relative to the average Gnostic sorcerer.  Seems like he could hold his own.

To clarify, he almost killed Kellhus at the very beginning of his assault on Kel (or seemed to have).  Malowebi was bearing the brunt of the onslaught, which allowed Kel to assess Meppa, then deal with him.  My poorly-worded point was that it seemed as if Meppa's initial torrent pretty much tore through Kel's wards and the only thing that saved him in that moment was Malowebi's Chalice.

Yes, I do see what you are saying, but the assumption in your statement is that Malowebi's pseudo-anagogic chalice is stronger than gnostic wards, and I don't buy that. My opinion :D

Lol - for my limited thoughts. I think Meppa is stronger than any normal Gnostic sorcerer for being the Last Cishaurim. But I also think that when Kellhus shelters inside the Iswazi Ward, it is the Mbimayu sorcery which attracts his curiousity - having never been exposed to Zeumi Schoolmen before - not concern as to how to defeat Meppa.

And yes, Meppa is still alive - as per Somnambulist correcting me over a month ago now ;).

I really think that Bakker slips some interesting tidbits regarding Zeum into this momentous battle. Firstly, Mbimayu seems to be a state-sanctioned School akin to the Cishaurim being Fanim Holy. Secondly, and more importantly, what could possibly surprise Kellhus about "another Anagogic sorcery?" What does it mean that Malowebi chants and thinks against his chanting? What is "the sacred-and-accursed Song of Iswa?" Are Mbimayu mayhaps not Damned in their exercise of sorcery?

EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 02:50:18 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2016, 03:24:12 pm »
Sorry, double post, but another thought:

I'm fairly sure Meppa is that kid in TTT that Aurang "tells a secret." Wouldn't it be really interesting, since learning that it was the Dunyain and not the Cishaurim or the Psuhke responsible for outing the Skin-Spies, that the Consult might have helped the kid learn the Psuhke so that he'd be another thorn in Kellhus' side later?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 03:26:00 pm by Madness »
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2016, 04:54:52 pm »
Quote
EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.
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