[profgrape]

On my second red, I thought it was obvious that she was about to unleash hell.  I don't think it'll be a sacrifice, either -- I think she's about to make some bodies turn cold.

How do you think she'll stay alive using sorcery with the collar on? You think the chorae will negate it somehow?

Yup, I think that's why Sorweel was holding it up to her.

[Madness]

Oh, when Orinaus is said to rip Sorweel in two, I'm assuming he ripped the Aimalos off of him, correct? Serwa, notes his face is flayed, yes?

Yeah, I think so. It is also a satisfying metaphor regarding ripping his amalgam soul in two.

[profgrape]

Oh, when Orinaus is said to rip Sorweel in two, I'm assuming he ripped the Aimalos off of him, correct? Serwa, notes his face is flayed, yes?

Yeah, I think so. It is also a satisfying metaphor regarding ripping his amalgam soul in two.

Any ideas on *why* the big fella decided to rip the thing off?

[MSJ]

Oh, when Orinaus is said to rip Sorweel in two, I'm assuming he ripped the Aimalos off of him, correct? Serwa, notes his face is flayed, yes?

Yeah, I think so. It is also a satisfying metaphor regarding ripping his amalgam soul in two.

Any ideas on *why* the big fella decided to rip the thing off?

My thought was as a Tall and ancient Nonman, Orinaus was disgusted to see a Nonman face on a Man. That was the only thought that came to mind when I read it. Like Sorweel wasn't worthy of it, or something.

[Blackstone]

On my second red, I thought it was obvious that she was about to unleash hell.  I don't think it'll be a sacrifice, either -- I think she's about to make some bodies turn cold.

How do you think she'll stay alive using sorcery with the collar on? You think the chorae will negate it somehow?

I'm of the opinion that her ability to hide inside herself will somehow shield her from the collar. I don't think she's sacrificing herself, because if the collar were capable of killing her, then she would get out about half a cant before it did. And that wouldn't be much of a dread portion.

[MSJ]

On my second red, I thought it was obvious that she was about to unleash hell.  I don't think it'll be a sacrifice, either -- I think she's about to make some bodies turn cold.

How do you think she'll stay alive using sorcery with the collar on? You think the chorae will negate it somehow?

I'm of the opinion that her ability to hide inside herself will somehow shield her from the collar. I don't think she's sacrificing herself, because if the collar were capable of killing her, then she would get out about half a cant before it did. And that wouldn't be much of a dread portion.

Fair enough. Yea, I don't know exactly what the collar may do or won't. I like that idea, of hiding in herself. I thought occurred to me only to have it stripped away with a later realization. The Chorae, everyone was wondering where it came from and I thought, that's Sorweel's Yatwer gift, right? But, no, iirc, he gave that to Zsoronga. I thought maybe that would have some effect.

@Madness, yea, Sorweel will certainly not be hiding behind Yatwer anymore, at least you would think not. I'm really intrigued to see where this whole plot goes and especially Sorweel.

[Nil Sertrax]

I am firmly in the camp that Serwa's singing at the end is purely mundane.  Much is made of the spiritual, religious value of song to the Nonmen in one of the chapters.  She'll perform some Tragic ballad which will Dunyain-whelm all the Cunoroi.

Bingo!  We have a winner!

I'm nearly through my second re-read and I'm going through the Ishterebinth Chapters with a fine tooth comb.  I'm with H/P on this one and nearly 100% sure as well.  Bakker almost makes it explicit in the text.  I'll post the exact quote tonight when I have a chance but there are two parts that lead me to this conclusion. 

The first is when Harapior is taking Serwa to see the King.  I'm paraphrasing but he says that he knows she is Dunyain and thus everything she does is a trap.  He says that all her actions always conceal a "poison pin".  He then says that he has been consumed with thoughts of how she is manipulating them and, rhetorically, asks what would a King do when presented with the gift of a famous "songbird"?  His answer is "bid her to sing".  He then shoves the gag into mouth and says something to the effect that her poison pin has been avoided. 

The next part is when Serwa is strapped to the grating in front of the King.  We get a few brief sentences of her internal thoughts and feelings and the text states that this was the first time she had ever experienced genuine fear.  The text notes that she feels fear and shame for her failure and she also specifically thinks that "Harapior had guessed her plan".

If a mere sob from a gagged Serwa was enough to silence the audience chamber imagine the effect that her mundane songs will have on the gathered ghouls once her gag has been removed!     

[Nil Sertrax]

p. 320 ARC...

Lord Harapior:  "But then I know you are Dunyain...I know that every blunted edge you bare conceals a poison pin." 

"I was a fool for thinking that knowledge would make me your master...So now I'm suspicious beyond all reason.  I obsess, wondering where I might find the poison pin.  And I ask, What will my King do when he at last lays eyes on you?  What would any soul do when presented a famed songbird as a gift?"  He sneered.

"Of course, he would bid it sing."  He seized her head , jammed the silken sack deep into her mouth and throat.  She gagged and convulsed as someone human might.  His eyes gleamed for satisfaction.

"No voice," he said "No poison pin."

p. 329 The ARC

Serwa:  And it descended as lightning, the realization that she had failed.  Harapior had guessed her gambit.  Very soon, they would become the plaything of some decrepit and inhuman will , something to sin against and so purchase some brief term of sanity.

[Blackstone]

p. 320 ARC...

Lord Harapior:  "But then I know you are Dunyain...I know that every blunted edge you bare conceals a poison pin." 

"I was a fool for thinking that knowledge would make me your master...So now I'm suspicious beyond all reason.  I obsess, wondering where I might find the poison pin.  And I ask, What will my King do when he at last lays eyes on you?  What would any soul do when presented a famed songbird as a gift?"  He sneered.

"Of course, he would bid it sing."  He seized her head , jammed the silken sack deep into her mouth and throat.  She gagged and convulsed as someone human might.  His eyes gleamed for satisfaction.

"No voice," he said "No poison pin."

p. 329 The ARC

Serwa:  And it descended as lightning, the realization that she had failed.  Harapior had guessed her gambit.  Very soon, they would become the plaything of some decrepit and inhuman will , something to sin against and so purchase some brief term of sanity.

I think you make a good argument, but I'm not sure I agree. Were it mundane singing, I don't think "dread portion" would be an apt descriptor, but I've been wrong before.

[Madness]

See, I still think that speaks to her being able to sing Sorcery despite the Agonic Collar. Metagnosis trumps Nonman Gnostic artifact.

She sings Ihrimsu while they torture her and Moenghus because she thinks that of course the Nonman King is going to ask to hear her sing. But Harapior takes that out of the equation entirely - why else gag her? He doesn't want her to sing Ihrimsu songs for the Nonman Court?

[Hirtius/Pansa]

zomfg  This thread will give me an aneurysm.  Inrilatas gives Maithanet the command to look upon Kelmomas using "his own portion" as if it's a shorthand for Dunyain abilities of observation and analysis.  Dunyain abilities = "show them my dread portion" = Mundane singing manipulation.

Also, despite whatever weird doubt there exists against Serwa's intellect and abilities, she is not stupid.  She speaks Ihrimsu, she knows what Oirunas was saying.  She knows that he hates the Inchoroi and the Consult.  The two chief toadies of the Consult WERE JUST KILLED—why?!—why would she attack any of the other Nonmen?

My read of some people here is that there is a fixation on the desire for the spectacle of sorcery and violence to resolve this cliffhanger.  And I remain adamant that there is —demonstrably so—no evidence that that is going to happen.

ty Nil Sertax for backing me up

[MSJ]

Also, despite whatever weird doubt there exists against Serwa's intellect and abilities, she is not stupid.  She speaks Ihrimsu, she knows what Oirunas was saying.  She knows that he hates the Inchoroi and the Consult.  The two chief toadies of the Consult WERE JUST KILLED—why?!—why would she attack any of the other Nonmen?

This right here sways me more than how I read the scene did. I think why people, myself included, think that she is going to use sorcery is because the feel you got from reading the scene. I don't have book anymore, but there was a quote where she said that she was done with singing, or something along those lines. As the above quote says, why would she kill them after those two are dead? Intriguing.

[Nil Sertrax]

I can understand the other viewpoint but I don't think there is much textual evidence to back it up.  I believe the reference to "dread portion" is referring to the Dunyain's ability to manipulate through word and intellect.  Even without sorcery Kellhus was able to bend the holy war to his own ends.   That, to me, is a clear demonstration of the Dunyain's dread portion.

If I had to guess I would say that Serwa will overwhelm the gathered Nonmen when they hear this beaten and bound, yet still strikingly beautiful, women sing ancient laments about their lost wives and children in a voice that strikes emotional chords deep within them and clearly recalls the gut-wrenching tragedy of the womb-plague.  The emotional trauma that her song will deliver will provide enough clarity for the remaining Nonmen of Ishterebinth to rally together against the Vile. 

Just my $.02.  I can't wait until the next book when I'm proven right!    Or not...That's why these discussions are fun!           

[Madness]

zomfg  This thread will give me an aneurysm.

Lol - please don't have an aneurysm on the forum's account .

The two chief toadies of the Consult WERE JUST KILLED—why?!—why would she attack any of the other Nonmen?

Well, Chief Toadies 1 and 2 can't have been the only ones who will fight to side with the Consult.

My read of some people here is that there is a fixation on the desire for the spectacle of sorcery and violence to resolve this cliffhanger.  And I remain adamant that there is —demonstrably so—no evidence that that is going to happen.

ty Nil Sertax for backing me up

There will always be different readings. The fact that there is overlap, agreement, between any of us at all is good.

If I had to guess I would say that Serwa will overwhelm the gathered Nonmen when they hear this beaten and bound, yet still strikingly beautiful, women sing ancient laments about their lost wives and children in a voice that strikes emotional chords deep within them and clearly recalls the gut-wrenching tragedy of the womb-plague.  The emotional trauma that her song will deliver will provide enough clarity for the remaining Nonmen of Ishterebinth to rally together against the Vile.

Just my $.02.  I can't wait until the next book when I'm proven right!    Or not...That's why these discussions are fun!           

Very poetic. I admit the possibility. Perhaps a reading of the ARC or canon artifact will solidify things one way or the other before TUC.

Agreed. Articulate dissent is better.

[Walter]

I think she's doing sorcery at the end.  Kill them all with her metagnosis.  She's had plenty of chances to sing mundane songs.  They didn't convert the Lord Torturer and his goons, and with what we know about how the Dolor works, they couldn't.  Their past selves aren't something they can regain, any more than you can get back your fetus-form.  The backup plan if Ishterebinth is for the Consult is that that Serwa kills everyone.

Now, obviously, this wouldn't work aside from the lucky fact that Sorweel & his confederates have inspired a legendary hero to destroy the puppet king and remove the precauations that prevent her form using her power, but Kellhus has never shied away from a plan that relies on coincidence before.  The end of the Thousandfold Thought hinges on similar coincidences.  Absent Akka showing up and ripping apart the Kildruhil, allowing Saubon the opportunity to assassinate Conphas and take over his army the First Holy War and Kellhus are both obliterated by the Imperial Saik.