[TGO SPOILERS] Kiünnat and Zero

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2016, 02:07:33 pm »
TGO, ARC, pg. 391

Quote
He was known–he who had confounded his Elders with his gifts.

One sentence.  Pretty strong implication that Koringhus was a prodigy amongst the Dunyain.  Interesting that he embraced the darkness that comes before, love, when he saved the Boy, his son.  So, if one prodigy is capable of love, could another not be (i.e., Kellhus)?  Blurring into that other topic, I think that's why Kellhus went back to Momemn.  Some small part of him loves Esmenet.
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« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2016, 02:19:35 pm »
TGO, ARC, pg. 391

Quote
He was known–he who had confounded his Elders with his gifts.

One sentence.  Pretty strong implication that Koringhus was a prodigy amongst the Dunyain.  Interesting that he embraced the darkness that comes before, love, when he saved the Boy, his son.  So, if one prodigy is capable of love, could another not be (i.e., Kellhus)?  Blurring into that other topic, I think that's why Kellhus went back to Momemn.  Some small part of him loves Esmenet.
I'm not disputing that he was a prodigy, only that he somehow surpassed Kellhus--which he may have. I was just wondering if there was actual evidence he did. +1 for the heavy lifting!
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2016, 03:28:16 pm »
Well, in as far as actual evidence is concerned, taking into account the Dunyain mission of achieving the Absolute, Koringhus wins hands down.  He found the Shortest Path (Mimara) and went to the head of the line.  In terms of surpassing Kellhus otherwise, I don't think there's any evidence of that.  We have no textual references of Kellhus' superiority among the Dunyain (as far as I remember, anyway), aside from Scott saying in an interview that Kel was a prodigy.  I personally believe (though this is just my own feeling) that Koringhus was, in purely Dunyainic terms, superior to Kellhus.
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« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2016, 02:19:52 am »
Since I've nothing to say (yet) on topic:

2000 years is a seemingly long time. Wonder if Ishual was a topos for all the enslaved women and the uncounted millions of slaughtered sranc.

This didn't seem to be addressed in the narrative but either Ishual should be a topoi or the Dunyain inadvertantly succeeded in "hiding from the Gods" a la Nonmen attempt to "dig deep."

TGO, ARC, pg. 391

Quote
He was known–he who had confounded his Elders with his gifts.

One sentence.  Pretty strong implication that Koringhus was a prodigy amongst the Dunyain.  Interesting that he embraced the darkness that comes before, love, when he saved the Boy, his son.  So, if one prodigy is capable of love, could another not be (i.e., Kellhus)?  Blurring into that other topic, I think that's why Kellhus went back to Momemn.  Some small part of him loves Esmenet.

Lol - I feel the heavy hand o' Fate, Anagke, regarding the Survivor's saving the Boy.

Well, in as far as actual evidence is concerned, taking into account the Dunyain mission of achieving the Absolute, Koringhus wins hands down.  He found the Shortest Path (Mimara) and went to the head of the line.  In terms of surpassing Kellhus otherwise, I don't think there's any evidence of that.  We have no textual references of Kellhus' superiority among the Dunyain (as far as I remember, anyway), aside from Scott saying in an interview that Kel was a prodigy.  I personally believe (though this is just my own feeling) that Koringhus was, in purely Dunyainic terms, superior to Kellhus.

To the bold - ZTS post ;).

Otherwise, I don't agree with you but will continue withholding finalizing my opinion until I can read the canon artifact 8).
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« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2016, 12:02:27 pm »
2000 years is a seemingly long time. Wonder if Ishual was a topos for all the enslaved women and the uncounted millions of slaughtered sranc.

This didn't seem to be addressed in the narrative but either Ishual should be a topoi or the Dunyain inadvertantly succeeded in "hiding from the Gods" a la Nonmen attempt to "dig deep."

But Sranc aren't souled, so they shouldn't make a topoi, right?  It's only the collective anguish of souled beings that can connect the Inside to the Outside, if I am thinking of it correctly.

On the women, well, I don't think there were probably enough of them to really make a topoi.  Either that, or their anguish was diffuse enough that it didn't really wear as harshly on the barrier as it did elsewhere.  Or that their suffering was slightly less acute than is what is needed to really make a topoi?  Or both?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2016, 03:49:30 pm »
I definitely think think Koringhus would be Kellhus' intellectual superior, all things being equal.
However, Kellhus has quite a leg up on all the Dunyain because he has had so much more tutoring and breadth of experience, that I think a battle of wits/skills would see Kellhus as the victor.
Then again, Kellhus is totally insane, so who knows.

If they both stayed in Ishual their whole lives, I think Koringhus would have eventually surpassed Kellhus.

Might be a hint that Kellhus is not seeking the Absolute, since he hasn't offed himself. And, since it appears he regrets killing Moenghus, that they would have made a good team against defeating the Consult.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2016, 03:59:02 pm »
Depends on if Kellhus was aware that Mimara had the Eye.  Through the Eye was the only way Koringhus was able to come to the conclusions he did.  Since she has never said, there are a couple of possibilities: 1) Kellhus went through the same thing with the Eye, but came to different conclusions, whelmed Mimara so she wouldn't remember; or 2) did not submit to the Eye, whether or not he actually knew about it.  I'm inclined to think option 2, but option 1 would be a great twist.
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« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2016, 04:22:04 pm »
I don't think Kellhus knew enough about TJE to have come up with any proper conclusion, nor that he saw TJE.

Seems to short circuit Koringhus pretty well. Maybe almost completely destroying the before/after thing in a way that sorcery only disrupts.

Zero-God and It seems to be about the same to me. Kor/Kel don't necessarily need the same data inputs to come to the same conclusion.
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Blackstone

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« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2016, 09:26:23 pm »
I don't think Kellhus knew enough about TJE to have come up with any proper conclusion, nor that he saw TJE.

Seems to short circuit Koringhus pretty well. Maybe almost completely destroying the before/after thing in a way that sorcery only disrupts.

Zero-God and It seems to be about the same to me. Kor/Kel don't necessarily need the same data inputs to come to the same conclusion.

I think you are probably right about Kellhus not fully understanding or grasping the Eye. He didn't interact with her all that often. I don't remember off the top of my head what Koringhus's interpretation of Mimara's face after the eye opened, but she certainly smashed everything he believed to be true in a matter of minutes.
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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2016, 12:14:20 pm »
I think you are probably right about Kellhus not fully understanding or grasping the Eye. He didn't interact with her all that often. I don't remember off the top of my head what Koringhus's interpretation of Mimara's face after the eye opened, but she certainly smashed everything he believed to be true in a matter of minutes.

From what Mimara says about never having seen Kellhus with the Eye, I have to doubt he knows of the Judge Eye really.

A question would be though, if he did, would he actually choose that same path that Koringhus took?  I doubt it...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2016, 03:06:27 am »
Then again, Kellhus is totally insane, so who knows.

And acknowledges his insanity. He doesn't trust his own thoughts, which makes a fantastic complication to his POV.

On the Eye and Kellhus, Mimara does have that weird dream about Kellhus in WLW where he says to her something to the effect of "you are the eye that offends."

Whatever that implies, because Qirri is a hell of a drug.
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« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2016, 03:06:32 pm »
Bah! Koringus is another broken, failed Dunyain. Though this time the mistake to imbibe Qirri took less time to be fatal than blinding.

Extremely important character? Yes. For the reason cited above. However, he was also deeply, deeply scarred by his years in the darkness. Qirri put him over the edge - though perhaps interesting to note his reaction in light of Kellhus imbibing chanv, which has similar intellectual quickening abilities. A slower death for Kellhus it seems.

This is essentially how I read it. Though, this is a awesome thread with a lot of great thoughts from H, and Som. I haven't nothing to add, this is the stuff that I leave for greater souls than I. Interesting.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2016, 03:20:57 pm »
One thing I might add. About the 100 rocks, didn't the boy use the 100th rock to hit Serwe the Skin-Spy and send her off a cliff? Thats how I read it anyway.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2016, 03:42:59 pm »
One thing I might add. About the 100 rocks, didn't the boy use the 100th rock to hit Serwe the Skin-Spy and send her off a cliff? Thats how I read it anyway.

I never thought of that.  Seems so obvious now you pointed it out.  The Survivor gives the boy his last stone, who uses it to finally escape the skin-spy.  So, Koringhus saw that coming? (!)  Makes me think of the whole benjuka game that Akka had with Xinemus, how he had to substitute a stone for a missing piece, and he thought it impoverished his play somehow.  Yet in this case, Koringhus saw the whole benjuka plate, and provided a lowly stone to his son to turn the tables on the Serwe skin-spy (at least to allow him to escape).  Pretty fkn cool.
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« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2016, 03:53:39 pm »
One thing I might add. About the 100 rocks, didn't the boy use the 100th rock to hit Serwe the Skin-Spy and send her off a cliff? Thats how I read it anyway.

I never thought of that.  Seems so obvious now you pointed it out.  The Survivor gives the boy his last stone, who uses it to finally escape the skin-spy.  So, Koringhus saw that coming? (!)  Makes me think of the whole benjuka game that Akka had with Xinemus, how he had to substitute a stone for a missing piece, and he thought it impoverished his play somehow.  Yet in this case, Koringhus saw the whole benjuka plate, and provided a lowly stone to his son to turn the tables on the Serwe skin-spy (at least to allow him to escape).  Pretty fkn cool.

I like the comparison Som. Yea, reading the threads, it seems likely that giving the time in the World, Koringhus would've surpassed Kellhus. Also, I never grasped the importance of Koringhus grasping the Absolute and the connection to Zero, that it is. I love this thread!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,