The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Eärwag on January 22, 2017, 10:20:46 pm

Title: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 22, 2017, 10:20:46 pm
First post, it is about something I have been thinking about in regards to the he No-God and the number of souls needed to shut off the World from the Outside, and the alternate dreams Akka has other Aspect-Emperor. So, spoiler alert!

A couple of things first:

- the No-God seems to be conceived as a God, but this might be a mistake of grammar. It could also mean that the Carapace is simply a zone where no God is permitted, a No-God zone. Sealed with chorae as it is, the chorae may serve to further occlude the interior of the sarcophagus.
- the 144k is the amount souls required to seal off the outside. In religion, heaven is sometimes a place where only 144k people are permitted. So far it seems people think there will be 144k people allowed to live, but this might not be the case, only the souls are required. We have seen that there are ways to contain souls in the World, either as husks or in objects.

That being said, here is my conjecture, that the dreams Akka has of people in a long chain line are being fed into the Carapace, and that the 144k souls are trapped inside the Carapace. This fulfils some prophecy about the Holy Land, and tricks the Outside into believing the World is separate somehow. Once the requisite souls are trapped, all other living beings must be extinguished, thus eliminating the need to have a group of people to care for. This also means that the No-God is not a single entity, but a confused multiplicity, a whirl of 144k souls all trapped and blinded by the chorae, perhaps.

Apparently the Inchoroi have pulled this trick on other worlds, but it never worked out for them, and then they would go to another world to try again. However the Inchoroi didn't have chorae on the other worlds, so maybe that is the game changer, and a God with teary eyes will not see so well. Mimara possesses the Eye of Judgment though, a Gods eye, so if she ever sees the Carapace, we will know.

As for the number 144k, it is based on the 12 tribes of Israel I think, and apparently 12000 from each tribe are allowed into Heaven or something. So 12 times 12000 is 144000. The Inchoroi had a homeworld but it seems they did not try this trick there. However they believe in their prophecy. Maybe their Heaven was realized by some of their people, but the rest were excluded, so they sought to recreate a new heaven of their own the best way they knew how, with the Tekne. It wasn't until they found Eärwa though that they found their match, a race who didn't have Tekne but had something perhaps more potent, the Quya, or sorcery. The marriage of sorcery and Tekne may be the key to their promised land.

Now there are only 2 Inchoroi left, or so it seems, but they are true believers and have been reinforced with the Consult. Feeding the No-God souls was easier during the first Apocolypse, as the North was full of souls, but is probably harder now that the North is empty. However, the Ordeal has enough souls to feed the No-God still, so Kellhus may unwittingly provide the Consult with what they need.

When the No-God does appear in dreams, he asks people what they see, but through the voices of Sranc. The No-God is blind but apparently has other senses, or perhaps some kind of connection with living souls, for people have an innate sense of the No-God's existence, or so I recall. Thus the No-God is the perfect annihilator, preternaturally drawn to living beings by some soul magnetism. Only cracking the Carapace seems to dispel the No-God.

Just some of my thoughts. Thanks!
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 23, 2017, 04:42:22 am
Welcome, Eärwag! Good post. I am just one that has ever bought the idea that 144,000 souls are needed to awake the No-God. And, for those that subscribe to the theory that the purpose of the Ordeal is to feed the No-God the necessary souls I ask.  Why did the Consult try to destroy the Ordeal with a Nuke at Dagliash? I am just not buying it.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 23, 2017, 05:16:03 am
Hi MSJ, thanks! I was thinking about awaking the No-God, and it might not be the case that there is a No-God to awake, but rather that the No-God is simply the word used to describe the Carapace. If the Carapace acts as a repository to contain souls, than the No-God is a multiplicity, not a god to be awakened. We know that great atrocities create some kind of link with the Outside, a Topoi, but what if you could create a mobile Topoi? That would be the function of the 144k souls, a mass sacrifice to meet the needs to create a Topoi, except one that can move. I can't really imagine what else the chain gang in Akka's dreams is being led to.

The nuke at Dagliash may not have been intended to destroy the Ordeal, but to destroy Kellhus instead. They guessed Kellhus would be heading there, and wanted to nuke him because they knew they might be slaughtered in close combat. As it turned out, the Ordeal dodged the nuke, for the most part.

However, is it certain that it was the Consult that nuked Dagliash? It wasn't really explained what the Tekne was that Kellhus retrieved, is it possible that maybe Kellhus himself used the Tekne to nuke Dagliash and so destroy the Horde? I wasn't sure on that account. I was thinking that may have been why Kellhus took Saubon instead of Proyas, because he could afford to lose Saubon in the blast, but needed Proyas to continue leading the Ordeal. That would leave the Inchoroi appearance unexplained though.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 23, 2017, 05:22:24 am
Yea, just hope TUC will make little things like this clearer, I doubt it will though. I am of the opinion Kell husband had no idea the Nuke was there. Just when he found it he used the PTL and decided the course of action. I think Saucony was gonna die that Day, Nuke or not.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 23, 2017, 05:49:37 am
I see, yes TUC ought to clarify that, hopefully. You don't think Kellhus knew about the Tekne in Dagliash though? I got the impression he was searching for something, disembowelling Dagliash. Maybe he has been using his dreams to find things too?

Also what is PTL, is that probability trance or do you mean portal?
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 23, 2017, 08:53:22 am
I see, yes TUC ought to clarify that, hopefully. You don't think Kellhus knew about the Tekne in Dagliash though? I got the impression he was searching for something, disembowelling Dagliash. Maybe he has been using his dreams to find things too?

Also what is PTL, is that probability trance or do you mean portal?

PT- Probability  Trance

I just felt he was doing what they planned at Dagliash. Make "new ground" and drop it on the horde waiting inside the mountain. I felt Kellhus was surprised when he found the Nuke. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Tyrin on January 23, 2017, 10:46:34 am
Why did the Consult try to destroy the Ordeal with a Nuke at Dagliash?

What if the sole target of the nuke was not the Ordeal, but rather the Sranc horde as well?

Let's assume that indeed the hope of the Consult is to have the Ordeal arrive at Golgotterath half-dead and a shell of its peak strength. The Consult knows that a great "herding" of Sranc is going to happen at Dagliash. The Consult also knows of Kellhus' Niom and agreement with Ishterebinth to retake Dagliash, so they know that's where the Great Ordeal is headed. As others have pointed out,  the Bashrag with Chorae hiding underground were a fake trap intended to throw Kellhus off the scent of the nuke, but if our original premise is true, then the Consult doesn't even want to annihilate the Ordeal in one fell swoop with the nuke since they need their souls for the No-God. I think that the fake trap's actual purpose was to throw Kellhus off the scent of what the Consult actually wanted to happen: weaken the Ordeal but not greatly so, spare Kellhus, yet kill the entirety of the Horde. So the reasoning then is that the Consult knows that Kellhus never makes mistakes and everything always works out the way he intends, so him discovering the nuke doesn't affect the real purpose of it: not to kill Kellhus and all of his troops, but to weaken the Ordeal AND (the important part) simultaneously completely remove the massive pile of Sranc which is the only living thing that stands between the Ordeal and Golgotterath. Now all that is left for the Ordeal is to survive the march to Golgotterath.

So then if everything goes according to the Consult's plan (and possibly Kellhus' plan as well to some end), a half-dead, cannibalistic husk of the Ordeal arrives at Golgotterath to be easily wrangled up and tossed into No-God 2.0 by whatever remaining weapon race magic Aurax has figured out after all these years.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 23, 2017, 12:36:27 pm
Why did the Consult try to destroy the Ordeal with a Nuke at Dagliash?

What if the sole target of the nuke was not the Ordeal, but rather the Sranc horde as well?

Let's assume that indeed the hope of the Consult is to have the Ordeal arrive at Golgotterath half-dead and a shell of its peak strength. The Consult knows that a great "herding" of Sranc is going to happen at Dagliash. The Consult also knows of Kellhus' Niom and agreement with Ishterebinth to retake Dagliash, so they know that's where the Great Ordeal is headed. As others have pointed out,  the Bashrag with Chorae hiding underground were a fake trap intended to throw Kellhus off the scent of the nuke, but if our original premise is true, then the Consult doesn't even want to annihilate the Ordeal in one fell swoop with the nuke since they need their souls for the No-God. I think that the fake trap's actual purpose was to throw Kellhus off the scent of what the Consult actually wanted to happen: weaken the Ordeal but not greatly so, spare Kellhus, yet kill the entirety of the Horde. So the reasoning then is that the Consult knows that Kellhus never makes mistakes and everything always works out the way he intends, so him discovering the nuke doesn't affect the real purpose of it: not to kill Kellhus and all of his troops, but to weaken the Ordeal AND (the important part) simultaneously completely remove the massive pile of Sranc which is the only living thing that stands between the Ordeal and Golgotterath. Now all that is left for the Ordeal is to survive the march to Golgotterath.

So then if everything goes according to the Consult's plan (and possibly Kellhus' plan as well to some end), a half-dead, cannibalistic husk of the Ordeal arrives at Golgotterath to be easily wrangled up and tossed into No-God 2.0 by whatever remaining weapon race magic Aurax has figured out after all these years.

Yes. Yes. That's the 1239th time of been tried to be convinced that the Ordeal purpose is to awaken the No-God. I still  don't buy it. Not saying your wrong. Just not what I see happening of something that becomes Holy.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: H on January 23, 2017, 12:52:25 pm
That being said, here is my conjecture, that the dreams Akka has of people in a long chain line are being fed into the Carapace, and that the 144k souls are trapped inside the Carapace. This fulfils some prophecy about the Holy Land, and tricks the Outside into believing the World is separate somehow. Once the requisite souls are trapped, all other living beings must be extinguished, thus eliminating the need to have a group of people to care for. This also means that the No-God is not a single entity, but a confused multiplicity, a whirl of 144k souls all trapped and blinded by the chorae, perhaps.

While I like the idea and even thought about it myself from time to time, it doesn't really make sense from a practical standpoint.  Consider that if they fed one person per hour, 144,000 people would take 6,000 days.  That is 16.43 years.  Not much of a "millennial task" really.

One the chorae, I have at times, speculated that chorae might be blind spots to the No-God, a possible reason why Skarpus and Atrithau survive the First Apocalypse.

Apparently the Inchoroi have pulled this trick on other worlds, but it never worked out for them, and then they would go to another world to try again.

Indeed, we know they reduced many world.  However, I feel pretty confident that the No-God is a creation of Shaeönanra and never existed before (or probably could even exist outside of) Earwa.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 24, 2017, 04:27:47 am
While I like the idea and even thought about it myself from time to time, it doesn't really make sense from a practical standpoint.  Consider that if they fed one person per hour, 144,000 people would take 6,000 days.  That is 16.43 years.  Not much of a "millennial task" really.

One the chorae, I have at times, speculated that chorae might be blind spots to the No-God, a possible reason why Skarpus and Atrithau survive the First Apocalypse.

I don't have the book with me, but the pace at chain gang was moving forward in the alternate dream of Akka was much faster than one length an hour, it seemed to be clanging at a fairly regular pace as I recall but I don't have the book or passage on me so I'm not too sure.

As for the chorae, I think you may be correct, the chorae may protect against the No-God.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: H on January 24, 2017, 08:38:21 pm
While I like the idea and even thought about it myself from time to time, it doesn't really make sense from a practical standpoint.  Consider that if they fed one person per hour, 144,000 people would take 6,000 days.  That is 16.43 years.  Not much of a "millennial task" really.

One the chorae, I have at times, speculated that chorae might be blind spots to the No-God, a possible reason why Skarpus and Atrithau survive the First Apocalypse.

I don't have the book with me, but the pace at chain gang was moving forward in the alternate dream of Akka was much faster than one length an hour, it seemed to be clanging at a fairly regular pace as I recall but I don't have the book or passage on me so I'm not too sure.

Indeed, so my point was that 144,000 souls would be trivial to aquire.  In fact, a soul a minute is even reasonable, so if it was just a numbers game, why isn't the No-God already here, 20 years post-Kellhus?

Instead, I previously presented the idea that it is a specific kind of soul that is needed and so the Consult might just be dumping in tons of them in the hopes that maybe one is the right sort.

As for the chorae, I think you may be correct, the chorae may protect against the No-God.

And in turn, they might be in/on the Carapace to simply protect it from simply being destroyed by sorcery.  It it, after all, take a might mundane weapon to crack it.  Presumably Seswatha's Gnosis could have done it, if there were no Chorae there.  But maybe it's both.  Keeps the No-God in and sorcery out.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 24, 2017, 10:34:32 pm
Quote from: H
Indeed, so my point was that 144,000 souls would be trivial to aquire.  In fact, a soul a minute is even reasonable, so if it was just a numbers game, why isn't the No-God already here, 20 years post-Kellhus?

Instead, I previously presented the idea that it is a specific kind of soul that is needed and so the Consult might just be dumping in tons of them in the hopes that maybe one is the right sort.

Indeed, if souls were all that was needed then the resurrection of the No-God would have happened a long time ago. It's my main reason as to why I don't buy the theory. It's been stated that the chorae is indeed a safeguard for the No-God against sorcery.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 25, 2017, 02:13:27 am
Indeed, so my point was that 144,000 souls would be trivial to aquire.  In fact, a soul a minute is even reasonable, so if it was just a numbers game, why isn't the No-God already here, 20 years post-Kellhus?

Instead, I previously presented the idea that it is a specific kind of soul that is needed and so the Consult might just be dumping in tons of them in the hopes that maybe one is the right sort.

Maybe it isn't the souls that are time consuming, but the manufacture of the Carapace that takes up so much time. Moënghus learned from the skin spies that the Consult was about 20 years away from ressurrecting the No-God, maybe there is a 20 year build time on the Carapace?

That thing about a specific kind of soul being required occurred to me too. The Synthese mentioned that the prophecy proclaimed something about the Judging Eye, maybe the Consult needs the JE to filter out pure souls from damaged souls?

And in turn, they might be in/on the Carapace to simply protect it from simply being destroyed by sorcery.  It it, after all, take a might mundane weapon to crack it.  Presumably Seswatha's Gnosis could have done it, if there were no Chorae there.  But maybe it's both.  Keeps the No-God in and sorcery out.

That's true, it took the Heron Spear to crack the Carapace before. If the Consult has reclaimed the Heron Spear, than there may be no way of stopping the No-God this time around, unless the Tekne Kellhus found in Dagliash is capable of doing it.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 25, 2017, 02:23:05 am
That thing about a specific kind of soul being required occurred to me too. The Synthese mentioned that the prophecy proclaimed something about the Judging Eye, maybe the Consult needs the JE to filter out pure souls from damaged souls?

I may be wrong, but all the Synethse said was that all prophecies must be respected. And that, only after Soma mentioned that Mimara was pregnant.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Francis Buck on January 25, 2017, 04:47:55 am
I think part of the problem is that, like many, MANY things in this series, the situation with the 144,000 souls is being presented to us in a "backwards" (or otherwise obfuscated) way.

For example, perhaps it's less that the No-God requires there only to be 144,000 souls on Earwa in order to achieve the Apocalypse -- rather, that is simply how many people will be left once the Apocalypse occurs. The Consult may not even know how many must die, but only that the end-result will be that number. Which would make (some) sense of their "burn it all" methodology. I'm sure there's a mathematical term for this sort of thing but I am a mathematical moron to the highest (lowest?) degree, so...

On the other hand, the number of 144,000 may not be important at all to actually achieving the Apocalypse, so much as it is the number of souls required to repopulate the New World -- once the No-God, or New God, has achieved dominion over the existing one. So, for the Consult it's equally an important number to be reached as it is a signal to stop being genocidal lunatics.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 25, 2017, 06:32:40 am
I may be wrong, but all the Synethse said was that all prophecies must be respected. And that, only after Soma mentioned that Mimara was pregnant.

I think you are right, your memory is better than mine. I seem to recall Akka saying something about pregnant people having the JE too, which may mean it leaves her when she gives birth.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Francis Buck on January 25, 2017, 06:43:23 am
Mimara doesn't have the Judging Eye, really. Her baby does. It is the Eye of the Unborn - Zero, for all intents and purposes and so far as we know.

Zero is not "God", according to Koringhus's assessment. This is important to keep in mind.

Recall that in TGO, after Koringhus has noticed the Black Halo of the Judging Eye, he sees Mimara bend over, but the Halo remains in the same spot, which symbolizes the distinction. 

Mimara is the ringbearer, not the ring itself.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 25, 2017, 06:46:44 am
I think part of the problem is that, like many, MANY things in this series, the situation with the 144,000 souls is being presented to us in a "backwards" (or otherwise obfuscated) way.

For example, perhaps it's less that the No-God requires there only to be 144,000 souls on Earwa in order to achieve the Apocalypse -- rather, that is simply how many people will be left once the Apocalypse occurs. The Consult may not even know how many must die, but only that the end-result will be that number. Which would make (some) sense of their "burn it all" methodology. I'm sure there's a mathematical term for this sort of thing but I am a mathematical moron to the highest (lowest?) degree, so...

On the other hand, the number of 144,000 may not be important at all to actually achieving the Apocalypse, so much as it is the number of souls required to repopulate the New World -- once the No-God, or New God, has achieved dominion over the existing one. So, for the Consult it's equally an important number to be reached as it is a signal to stop being genocidal lunatics.

Yes, like a tipping point, just kill until there are only 144k souls left, then it kind of unfolds as it should. In that scenario it would pay to be as far from Golgotterath as possible. I wonder what the rest of Eänna is thinking about the Great Ordeal, the must have heard of it.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 25, 2017, 06:53:12 am
Mimara doesn't have the Judging Eye, really. Her baby does. It is the Eye of the Unborn - Zero, for all intents and purposes and so far as we know.

Zero is not "God", according to Koringhus's assessment. This is important to keep in mind.

Recall that in TGO, after Koringhus has noticed the Black Halo of the Judging Eye, he sees Mimara bend over, but the Halo remains in the same spot, which symbolizes the distinction. 

Mimara is the ringbearer, not the ring itself.

I forgot about that, would that mean the JE is passed onto the child once born, and then they would be able to us it, leaving Mimara unable to see soul and their radiance? I am in the process of rereading the series's and am taking notes as I go this time, it's just so much to take in.

By the way, do you remember when Nau Cayutus (sp?) is talking to Shauriatis he and mentions the Derived, what do you suppose that is, the No-God, or something else?
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Francis Buck on January 25, 2017, 07:05:00 am
Mimara doesn't have the Judging Eye, really. Her baby does. It is the Eye of the Unborn - Zero, for all intents and purposes and so far as we know.

Zero is not "God", according to Koringhus's assessment. This is important to keep in mind.

Recall that in TGO, after Koringhus has noticed the Black Halo of the Judging Eye, he sees Mimara bend over, but the Halo remains in the same spot, which symbolizes the distinction. 

Mimara is the ringbearer, not the ring itself.

I forgot about that, would that mean the JE is passed onto the child once born, and then they would be able to us it, leaving Mimara unable to see soul and their radiance? I am in the process of rereading the series's and am taking notes as I go this time, it's just so much to take in.

By the way, do you remember when Nau Cayutus (sp?) is talking to Shauriatis he and mentions the Derived, what do you suppose that is, the No-God, or something else?

Welcome to the forums, and yes, it is a LOT to take in. More so than even some of our more experienced members realize, I think. Including myself, :)

As to your second question, I believe that the "Derived" simply refers to the Weapon Races -- Sranc, Bashrag, Dragons, etc. Much like Lord of the Rings, where Sauron cannot create "new life" but only twist previously existing entities into new forms, in TSA the situation is similar (at least on the surface). Shauriatas can only derive new creatures out of the bios of existing lifeforms.

Sauron tortured and twisted Elves until they became Orcs.

The Consult deciphered the bios (presumably the genome) of Nonmen and created Sranc.

Details are scant on Bashrag on Dragons, but I think that's the general idea.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 25, 2017, 04:19:18 pm
Mimara doesn't have the Judging Eye, really. Her baby does. It is the Eye of the Unborn - Zero, for all intents and purposes and so far as we know.

Zero is not "God", according to Koringhus's assessment. This is important to keep in mind.

Recall that in TGO, after Koringhus has noticed the Black Halo of the Judging Eye, he sees Mimara bend over, but the Halo remains in the same spot, which symbolizes the distinction. 

Mimara is the ringbearer, not the ring itself.

But, Mimara had the JE before she was pregnant. Said she has always had it.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 25, 2017, 04:25:19 pm
I think part of the problem is that, like many, MANY things in this series, the situation with the 144,000 souls is being presented to us in a "backwards" (or otherwise obfuscated) way.

For example, perhaps it's less that the No-God requires there only to be 144,000 souls on Earwa in order to achieve the Apocalypse -- rather, that is simply how many people will be left once the Apocalypse occurs. The Consult may not even know how many must die, but only that the end-result will be that number. Which would make (some) sense of their "burn it all" methodology. I'm sure there's a mathematical term for this sort of thing but I am a mathematical moron to the highest (lowest?) degree, so...

On the other hand, the number of 144,000 may not be important at all to actually achieving the Apocalypse, so much as it is the number of souls required to repopulate the New World -- once the No-God, or New God, has achieved dominion over the existing one. So, for the Consult it's equally an important number to be reached as it is a signal to stop being genocidal lunatics.

Yes, like a tipping point, just kill until there are only 144k souls left, then it kind of unfolds as it should. In that scenario it would pay to be as far from Golgotterath as possible. I wonder what the rest of Eänna is thinking about the Great Ordeal, the must have heard of it.

The only thing ever said about 144,000 souls in the books is by the Wracu Akka faces off with. That is the number the population has to be reduced to to shut Eärwa off from the Outside. The No-God's is the Consults tool to do this quicker. Once the No-God rises there are no more births. So, many have speculated as to why the No-God even went to war in the first place. They could have waited until people died off and with no more babies being born it wouldn't have taking very long.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 30, 2017, 09:49:25 pm
Welcome to the forums, and yes, it is a LOT to take in. More so than even some of our more experienced members realize, I think. Including myself, :)

As to your second question, I believe that the "Derived" simply refers to the Weapon Races -- Sranc, Bashrag, Dragons, etc. Much like Lord of the Rings, where Sauron cannot create "new life" but only twist previously existing entities into new forms, in TSA the situation is similar (at least on the surface). Shauriatas can only derive new creatures out of the bios of existing lifeforms.

Sauron tortured and twisted Elves until they became Orcs.

The Consult deciphered the bios (presumably the genome) of Nonmen and created Sranc.

Details are scant on Bashrag on Dragons, but I think that's the general idea.

Yes, thanks! If I remember, Wutteat said that the Inchoroi Sil rode on his shoulder as they initially left their space ship, so I guess dragons were created elsewhere. The bashrag I think must have been created elsewhere, but their tripled nature reminds me of Nonman sculptures that depict three poses in one, so I'm not sure. I think the Synthese must have been created by Shauriatis, some rude combination of human and bird.

I keep coming back to the No-God though, I reread one of the dreams where No-God is asking what he is, "What am I?", but with the voice of a hundred thousand Sranc, or could that be one hundred forty four thousand? It would be hard to tell the difference if they were all screeching at once. That would be a special kind of torture, to be lost in a legion of souls, unable to see or know what you are, speaking as a multiplicity.

Just once I'd like a part of the story to be told from the viewpoint of a Sranc, to see the world the way they do. Maybe Akka can have a dream but as a Sranc on the Battleplain of Mengedda? One can hope.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on January 30, 2017, 10:35:42 pm
The only thing ever said about 144,000 souls in the books is by the Wracu Akka faces off with. That is the number the population has to be reduced to to shut Eärwa off from the Outside. The No-God's is the Consults tool to do this quicker. Once the No-God rises there are no more births. So, many have speculated as to why the No-God even went to war in the first place. They could have waited until people died off and with no more babies being born it wouldn't have taking very long.

That's good to know, but I think there is more to that number, I'll have to reread that section. If it is the case that the population needs to be 144k in order to shut out the Outside, what happens if one trips and falls to their death? If everyone is sterile, than you can't replace a lost person, and the number is broken. However, if it is the case that the number of souls need only be trapped in the Carapace, as I believe is the case as revealed in Akka's dream of the chain gang being lead into some clanging mechanism, than the Consult need never worry about losing a soul here and there, and they would only have to eliminate all remaining living souls to attain the magic number.

However, that would mean that the Skylvendi would have to be betrayed at some point, once the rest of humanity is eliminated. I wonder how they felt when their wives were rendered barren by the No-God? They seemed to be ok with it, fighting alongside the No-God at Mengedda. I can't wait to see what the battle will be like between Cnaiür and the People, and Proyas and the Ordeal.

Alternatively, if it is the case that the Carapace is not some kind of Wathi doll of epic proportions, a giant soul trap, than there would have to be a population of souled beings kept around, and maybe that role would fall to the Skylvendi, some kind of chosen people? Perhaps the Consult could grant them immortality, keep their population at 144k, and use their Tekne to replace any Skylvendi who die, like in an artificial womb of some sort; I'm sure it would be within their capability.

That also raises another concern though, would the Consult have to hunt down all artifacts that contain a soul, like Wathi dolls, and the masks used by the Nonmen to imprison souls? What about any wights left around, like the Nonman King in Cil Aujas? I guess all will be revealed in The Unholy Consult. Thanks!
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on January 31, 2017, 02:05:34 am
Just to be clear Eärwag, reducing their number to 144,00 is just what shuts there Outside. If they number goes lower, then Outside is still shut. I have no doubt human souls are involved in awakening there No-God, I just don't agree it has to be 144,000.

ETA: it may only take ONE soul to do that. And that's what I am leaning towards.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Wilshire on February 01, 2017, 06:53:34 pm
Pretty sure there is more than 1 text reference to 144k.
The 144,000 are mentioned in one of the chapter headers in WLW. Something something the Blind, maybe. There should be others.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: H on February 01, 2017, 08:24:33 pm
Pretty sure there is more than 1 text reference to 144k.
The 144,000 are mentioned in one of the chapter headers in WLW. Something something the Blind, maybe. There should be others.

Three by my count, the header of WLW chapter 12 is the one you are talking about, The Third Revelation of Ganus the Blind.

Wutteat says it once and Akka mentions it as well, in WLW.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on February 01, 2017, 09:08:45 pm
Pretty sure there is more than 1 text reference to 144k.
The 144,000 are mentioned in one of the chapter headers in WLW. Something something the Blind, maybe. There should be others.

Three by my count, the header of WLW chapter 12 is the one you are talking about, The Third Revelation of Ganus the Blind.

Wutteat says it once and Akka mentions it as well, in WLW.

Ok, fair enough. That's not even what's important to my argument. It's always in reference to shutting the Outside. That's my point.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Eärwag on February 01, 2017, 09:48:00 pm
Just to be clear Eärwag, reducing their number to 144,00 is just what shuts there Outside. If they number goes lower, then Outside is still shut. I have no doubt human souls are involved in awakening there No-God, I just don't agree it has to be 144,000.

ETA: it may only take ONE soul to do that. And that's what I am leaning towards.

I see, I didn't realize that, good to know. So they could attain the number, and then eliminate everyone and it would still work, and even if they didn't , it's not like the remaining souled beings could reproduce, having gone barren.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Wilshire on February 02, 2017, 04:32:54 pm
Pretty sure there is more than 1 text reference to 144k.
The 144,000 are mentioned in one of the chapter headers in WLW. Something something the Blind, maybe. There should be others.

Three by my count, the header of WLW chapter 12 is the one you are talking about, The Third Revelation of Ganus the Blind.

Wutteat says it once and Akka mentions it as well, in WLW.

Ok, fair enough. That's not even what's important to my argument. It's always in reference to shutting the Outside. That's my point.

I wasn't trying to invalidate your whole argument :) .  Just fact checking what there is to check.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: MSJ on February 02, 2017, 05:21:21 pm
Oh, I know. I was just saying that the only reference is to shutting the Outside. I see everyone referencing as a means to raise the No-God, presumably because of Akka's dreams of the soulless wretch. But, I think that's just what the Consult does. Torture, rape, etc., etc.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Purrball on July 30, 2017, 01:32:12 am
I think part of the problem is that, like many, MANY things in this series, the situation with the 144,000 souls is being presented to us in a "backwards" (or otherwise obfuscated) way.

For example, perhaps it's less that the No-God requires there only to be 144,000 souls on Earwa in order to achieve the Apocalypse -- rather, that is simply how many people will be left once the Apocalypse occurs. The Consult may not even know how many must die, but only that the end-result will be that number. Which would make (some) sense of their "burn it all" methodology. I'm sure there's a mathematical term for this sort of thing but I am a mathematical moron to the highest (lowest?) degree, so...

On the other hand, the number of 144,000 may not be important at all to actually achieving the Apocalypse, so much as it is the number of souls required to repopulate the New World -- once the No-God, or New God, has achieved dominion over the existing one. So, for the Consult it's equally an important number to be reached as it is a signal to stop being genocidal lunatics.

Yes, like a tipping point, just kill until there are only 144k souls left, then it kind of unfolds as it should. In that scenario it would pay to be as far from Golgotterath as possible. I wonder what the rest of Eänna is thinking about the Great Ordeal, the must have heard of it.

The only thing ever said about 144,000 souls in the books is by the Wracu Akka faces off with. That is the number the population has to be reduced to to shut Eärwa off from the Outside. The No-God's is the Consults tool to do this quicker. Once the No-God rises there are no more births. So, many have speculated as to why the No-God even went to war in the first place. They could have waited until people died off and with no more babies being born it wouldn't have taking very long.
not being able to give birth will unite humanity like nothing else. In 5-10 years a new ordeal could be raised with anyone with the mark being trained in sorcery, with humanity's blessing. The consult has to fight anyways.


Or maybe the no god has to war, maybe its part of its code. The no god doesn't seem to have a soul; perhaps it has no choice, no free will either.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Bagletown on August 12, 2017, 09:14:52 pm
After searching for 44 and "forty-four" in my ebooks, the 144,000 people seems to come from mannish myths and legends (the revelations of Ganus the Blind and a reference to the 144,000 last men of legend). I don't think the "what" of the 144,000 number is ever specified in either of the two references to it made/confirmed by Consultants:

Chapter 15 of WLW, from Wutteat:

Quote
"TWISTING IN THE VOID FOR SAILING AGES! WATCHING MY MAKERS DESCEND AS LOCUSTS UPON WORLD AFTER WORLD, REDUCING EACH TO ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND--AND WAILING TO FIND THEMSELVES STILL DAMNED!"

Chapter 18 of TUC just after the "art of human extinction":

Quote
"'Yes...' the Aspect-Emperor said, 'the one hundred and forty-four thousand...'
'The Object is a prosthesis of Ark' the teeth bearing Dunyain continued [apparently ignoring Kellhus' interjection]"

So we don't really know for sure what the Consult wants to reduce to 144,000. Lives/souls seems like the most logical inference, but who knows.

Also assuming its souls, we don't know that its human/nonman souls. Elsewhere I've seen speculation that the Progenitors were post-singularity trans[human]ists who exist in digital form in Ark (after all, why is it called ark if not to carry them?). Combine this with the capacity to create Tekne artifacts capable of housing souls, like the Synthese, and one has to wonder if Ark has the Progenitor's souls in it. So how many of the 144,000 would be taken up by Consult/Progenitor souls?

(as a side speculation, since weapon races tend not have souls yet the Inchoroi do even though they themselves are referred to as being a weapon race of the Progenitors, is it possible that the Inchoroi are simply warrior-caste bodies for Progenitor souls? Or the ensouled Simas skin-spy?)
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Sausuna on August 15, 2017, 02:15:12 pm
(as a side speculation, since weapon races tend not have souls yet the Inchoroi do even though they themselves are referred to as being a weapon race of the Progenitors, is it possible that the Inchoroi are simply warrior-caste bodies for Progenitor souls? Or the ensouled Simas skin-spy?)
I think this seems unlikely, if only given the discussed purpose of the Inverse Fire. Which was to press the Inchoroi with their damnation into continuing their crusade for salvation. I think they were likely given souls or made with souls for that reason. At least that's how it came off to me. That's why it was 'the Goad'. The purpose was to give them extra incentive to pursue their goal.
Title: Re: The No-God and the 144k souls. [spoilers inbound]
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 01:02:02 pm
(as a side speculation, since weapon races tend not have souls yet the Inchoroi do even though they themselves are referred to as being a weapon race of the Progenitors, is it possible that the Inchoroi are simply warrior-caste bodies for Progenitor souls? Or the ensouled Simas skin-spy?)
I think this seems unlikely, if only given the discussed purpose of the Inverse Fire. Which was to press the Inchoroi with their damnation into continuing their crusade for salvation. I think they were likely given souls or made with souls for that reason. At least that's how it came off to me. That's why it was 'the Goad'. The purpose was to give them extra incentive to pursue their goal.

Welcome Bagletown and Sausuna :) new folks coming faster than I can greet them all, its a great problem to have.