So you mean that they are  working with some kind of limited 'life span', and they can tell when their 'life' is nearly spent? Thats an interesting idea.

100% agree. Also, remember, Achamian was in the process of lying to the Skin-Eaters and leading them all to their eventual death. A groesome and terrible journey that ends with the entire band's death. This this weighed on his soul? I do.

If not that, well, how about all the hundreds and thousands that his Gnosis has burned to cinders? What difference would it make if you murded all those people 1 by 1 with a knife, or all at once in a big fire? To me, not much.

It just so happens that magic in Earwa tends to kill people rather than save them. That doesn't mean that digging a tunnel with the Gnosis would damn you, just that a sorcerer tends to be more likely to be damned because of his acts of atrocity, rather than the simple use of magic itself. It seems far to simple, and doesn't make much sense, to assume that All sorcerers are damned because thats what it says in a book.

Though, we could also talk about objective/subjective reality in Earwa, and say that if everyone believed schoolmen damned, then its possible that they would be. But, if that was the only reason for the damnation, then if the general concencous changed, so too would their fate.

All in all, the JE provides only the most simplistic and simpleminded proof of damnnation. We don't even know if its right, how it works, and who is running the damnnation machine. A sample of one is not proof of anything. It far more likely to be a red h haring provided to us by Bakker to throw us off the scent.

Or at least, thats what I think.

I figure since Shae will have a puppet army of empty vessels, making him more of less invincible as he jumps out of a corpse before its destroyed. Undefinable army of undead zombie sorcerers.

I liked that post a lot. Lots of good thoughts in there.


I especially like that you pointed out the "birthing" of new souls. I think that could be important. Especially since I don't believe the Nonman suicided here.

Here is my new interpretation of Nonman:


With those quoted sections, it seems to me that the Nonman, when he says "This is where I die", was referring to some kind of rebirth rather than actually being killed (which would explain his confusion when he ended up actually dieing). Maybe he was planning on doing some kind of soul division, becoming a new 'person'. Casting off his old self, Cleric/Incariol, as he had done before with Nil'.

Quick digression: Cleric/Incariol.
The distinction of names is important. I think that Incariol is the name Nil' either chose or was given, after he shed off his 'life' as the former Last King of the Mansion. Incariol The Wanderer, no longer a King at all, then found the Skin-Eaters (or Kellhus found him and then sent him there, whatever). Once there, he chose a more human sounding name, Cleric. This though, is significantly different than his Old Name. Cleric just a simple nickname for Incariol, rather than some kind of soul division. In a sense, Nil' and Incariol are no more the same person as You and I, as long as you consider the Soul the 'thing' that makes you 'you', but I and Wilshire are simply 2 names for the same person.

Anyway, Incariol now (specifically not Nil'Giccas), chose to "Die" at this spot. But dieing probably has a significantly different meaning to a crazy immortal Nonman than it does to you or I. Incariol had chosen this spot to be the birth of a new persona, a new soul. He was going to allow his former self to "Become" (not sure the importance of that yet).


A: And yet you seek memories!

N: To be! Being is not a choice!

A: But you claim Being is deception!

N: Yes!

A: But that is nonsense! Madness!

N: That is Becoming

By ceasing to be (BTW, what is synonymous with ceasing to be? How about Dieing) he could cast off memories and move into whatever 'Becoming' is. But "Being is not a choice" so ex-Incariol must live on. However, this new persona is Born, insert phoenix analogy. This new No-Incariol would live on, finding his own way, remembering only the suffering of those past lives, that Nil'Giccas, that Incariol, while moving forward making new memories that he would remember until he once again decided to split his soul.

Elju:
With the above in mind, I hold fast to my earlier idea of what an Elju is. Incariol has no need to remember his past lives, but there is obviously some kind of bleeding effect, where those past memories come through into 'now'. The elju's job is not to remember everything that happened, but to keep the Nonman from getting completely lost in his own memories.

Yatwer:
She must really hate the Nonman, who can give birth without any woman at all

How could a proper Elju function w/o a small understanding of Nonmen consciousness? 
Is it as simple as understanding how to use memory fulcrums? 
If so, how would Kosoter have known how to manipulate Cleric by using Akka and Mimara as memory fulcrums? 
Is it knowledge the Zaudyani Captain would have had just from his life experience?  Can it be random chance? 
Did someone (Kelhus), teach him?  How does Kosoter become in possession of Cleric anyways...

To answer how Kosoter did what he did, I tend to mark it all down as Kellhus manipulation. The guy is a complete fanatic, and he tells us he has explicit instruction from Kellhus to keep Mimara alive. He obviously had some dealing with Kell, and is therefore under his influence. Also, there is no way that the Skin-Eaters just happened to find the most powerful Quya wandering around in the woods. And it didnt just happen that Akka picked the one band of scalpers that had a Nonman. Kellhus manipulated a large portion of that story, and Kosoter more than anything else.

It would seem that the phrase "The Darkness that comes Before", which is a bit awkward sounding in English, is not an easy one to translate.

Any speculation as to why they chose "The Prince of Atrithau"? Seems to be a bit forward. And also, "The war of the Prophet" seems a bit spoilery compared to"The Prince of Nothing".

Or the french translation of "The Thousandfold Thought" into "The Singing of Sorcery". Not even close.

Did not RSB say that "The Four Revelations Of Cinial’jin," was a glimpse into how the consciousness\memory of Nonmen works?  If so, then perhaps a better understanding the Atrccity Tale may help in understand how an Elju functions.

Yes he did, though I found Four Revelations to be confusing. It showed how  'erratic' their memories are, ebbing and flowing in time, never really anchored to one point. I don't see much of a connection to their Elju except that perhaps they would serve as an anchor to 'now'.

Oh Kellhus almost certainly had children, probably many. After all, they didn't send out their prodigal son and their own crowning achievement without first leaving behind some progeny to carry on his line. That could have been a motivator for Kell to kill them all: He could have feared that a true son of his own might someday surpass him like he surpassed his father. There can only be one.

btw locke, that creepy, a big moving machine with souls hooked in to it, powering some terrible slaughter machine. Sweet. Maybe the new Heron Spear won't be as compact, like a lasgun, but rather more like an artillery gun shelling out large swaths of light that decimate whole areas. We've already seen the inadequacies of even the Mandati's attempt to destroy the sranc masses with magic. They need something bigger.