A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"
Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.
7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"
What am i missing here?
2/3 of the way through the story would be my reminder.
Personally I loved the last book, my favourite of the series so far.
"LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"
A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"
Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.
7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"
What am i missing here?
I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL". Like, surely, if you changed the last chapter so the good guys won an alternate version of you would be here saying 'LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL", right? Can you explain a bit more what you mean?
Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach. They also like to be cheeky about it. I figure he wants to show us in the 3rd series, that we humans control our own fate. He's not finished yet, so dont be so critical. And, as the man said hisself, what he did with TUC, well, ive never read nothing like that before in fantasy. And, i read a shit ton of fantasy, and its always the same, "they" are in peril and then find this miraculous way to win the day. Some is done well, others is shite.
Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.
Quote from: WilshireBakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.
Part of it no doubt is the philosophical underpinnings. But, there's more there. As i said, i think this was 18 year old Bakker story and its finish and he never swayed from the meat of the story. As the books go along he becomes a better and better writer. Thats why i think TSTSNBN will be the lesson.
Posthumanism, how technology will ruin us....just a guessYeah probably close to the mark. Wish he'd publish more scifi - that connection becomes more clear and he's got damn good stories to tell.
Wilshire, i cant recommend highly enough to take up BK's rec on Three Body Problem. Deals with alot of these issues and from what ive reas so far, is very good.I'll put it on the list. Unfortunately, its a long, long list, and I'm at like 3 books this year lol.
Also, i hate when someone starts a thread, bitches and moans, doesnt give us enough info to know what their issue is, then doesnt participate anymore.Comments like this discourage people from posting. I can understand your frustration, but hey, there's some 25 replies to this topic, most of which don't address the initial post since it was non substantive anyway. I call that an overall win for the forum, regardless of fair or foul original intent of the OP.
Wilshire, just say im bad at the internet and slap me on the wrist. You know i do this once a month... ;)Big monologues are, apparently, more my style. Sorry lol, someone decided it would be a good idea to make me a moderator.
Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.
Bakkers' work inspired me...it made me think, it inspired me to research, it forced me to question my beliefs and grow as a person...that is what is important...and for that, I thank him.
2. I have always found myself disappointed by endings. I remember reading the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons and being utterly disappointed with how it concluded. The difference between Hyperion and TSA is my expectations where MUCH higher for TSA...thus my disappointment is much more impactful.
I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL". Like, surely, if you changed the last chapter so the good guys won an alternate version of you would be here saying 'LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL", right? Can you explain a bit more what you mean?For example I will point to book One. Two. Three. Four. Five. And six. The author is perfectly capable of concluding a story in a satisfying way that doesnt involve all the shining knights killing all the orcs and no one dies. Book 7 just murders everyone on the turn of a dime at the very end.
If this were the real end of the story, well, yes, Bakker would be the most greatest troll-writer in the world (surpassing by far GRR Martin), what the fuck would be the purpose of the books.I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.
Well first of all i'm not sure that there are any "Good Guys".Humans all have their souls sucked into hell, tbh im 0% convinced the judging eye is a worthy indication of damnation -Esmi had a whore house burned down and all the workers executed. The Tusk prayers mention 'dont judge me on my actions by my intentions' or something along this line and Esmi constantly thinks about brutally murdering people.
...
And lastly, Acha, Esmenet and Mimara are alive. Possibly Kayutas too.
Welcome to the forum, EdwardReynolds :)
Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.
the destruction of a civilization with no hope...
The hero wasnt a hero after all?
I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.
Humans all have their souls sucked into hell, tbh im 0% convinced the judging eye is a worthy indication of damnation
The Anti hero is an existing trope.
Welcome to the forum, EdwardReynolds :)
Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.
Thanks for the welcome :)
Please keep rereading my OP until it makes sense, some of my above responses clarify.
As mentioned im cutting to the bone, good and bad teams are patently obvious.
I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.
The Prince of Nothing consists of three books, The Darkness that Comes Before, The Warrior-Prophet, and The Thousandfold Thought. They tell the story of the crucial events that occur some twenty years before the Second Apocalypse begins. I have outlines (whose original forms, coincidentally, date back some twenty years) that sketch the story of the Second Apocalypse, starting with The Aspect-Emperor and ending with The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named. Whether these will turn into trilogies like The Prince of Nothing remains to be seen. My guess is that each will be a dualogy.
This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.
There are at least 2 books to go (i would imagine). Moenghus is king of the Scylvendi and has an intact host ready to fight a retreat across the north. Zeum has been mentioned a lot more in recent books and is now coming into the fray (i hope). Kellhus is possibly still in play but is potentially the biggest bad of all. Crabicus is out in the wild. Imperial forces were gathering in Sumna. And who the hell knows what will come out of the east. I find it strange that Bakker went to all the trouble of leaving one tribe out there. One that rejected the Tusk and thus was not manipulated by the Vile.
And lastly, Acha, Esmenet and Mimara are alive. Possibly Kayutas too.
"LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"
In my eyes the bad guys lost and the good guys won, so I disagree :)
This person read all seven of these books, and felt invested enough to google up a website where they could write what they thought about it. That's an incredible level of engagement.
The greater impact of a thread is that all the posts are permanent. If some future user comes across this and clicks it, what will they see? A bunch of superfans flaming someone not part of the circle-jerk, or a community interested in engaging deeper discussion with even though who disagree? If the former, I have failed and they will leave, and if the latter then maybe they will feel compelled to participate themselves. :) . No follow-up of the OP does not change that outcome.
Well said, Wilshire. Dissenting views should be welcome. Some are more helpful than others...but all should be welcome.
1. It was my understanding that the TSTSNBN is not a sure thing and it's very possible that this is the closure of the series. People are talking a lot about another series after this one and I will admit that it appears to be written as if there is more to come. If we get confirmation of that, then my reflection on this book will be much more positive as I will understand this is not the proverbial end.
Again, these are more on me than anything else. To be clear, I loved the series and TUC...like the first poster said...10 years of my life have been invested in and evangelizing R Scott Bakker and these books. It's a testament to the author that his work would inspire these types of emotions. Being inspired, positive or negative, by the written word is a good thing...I wish it happen more often to more people. Bakkers' work inspired me...it made me think, it inspired me to research, it forced me to question my beliefs and grow as a person...that is what is important...and for that, I thank him.
A specific example is Crabicus. As I was reaching the end and there was no mention (or action) on his part, I was more and more anticipating his arrival at the end...when the end came, as awesome as it was, he was no where to be found (that we could see). Both he and the survivor were fantastic characters to introduce...and I get that the survivor served his purpose (much like Cleric...so fun to read about...but in the end, had a purpose and it was served) and accepted his leap for what is what (or for what I could understand of it at least). But Crabicus...I was absolutely expecting him to play a part...any part...but from what we had insight into, he did not.
2. I have always found myself disappointed by endings. I remember reading the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons and being utterly disappointed with how it concluded. The difference between Hyperion and TSA is my expectations where MUCH higher for TSA...thus my disappointment is much more impactful.
Oh man, I loved the Hyperion Cantos, start to finish. I'm a sucker, it seems, for conclusions. I give a lot of grace to authors for writings as they will, regardless of expectation, and appreciate greatly when a story ends in a way that isn't satisfying in the way people expected it to be.
Many of the plotlines that were set up aren't concluded (Crabicus, Ciphrang Assassin, Meppa, to name a few off the top of my head), and that's without acknowledging that the book creates a huge amount of questions at the end without explaining any of them. I think the ending would have felt more satisfying if it all hadn't happened so fast. However, right as you're expecting to get all of the answers, the entire plot turns on its head and the book ends.
I agree. I feel like a decade of waiting and reading has been just flushed down the toilet. I'm cheesed off enough to register on this forum for the first time. I'll be posting my own thread to go over some of my frustration.
I can't imagine Bakker's intention to wrap up this opus was to leave everyone completely confused but as his prose improved from book to book his narrative clarity got worse and worse. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Aspect Emperor series after the Judging Eye could have benefited greatly from a strong editor.
As for the Second Apocalypse, well that's the name of this board. Is anyone really that surprised that it occurred? The first one was survived. All hope is not yet lost.
I think we can all agree none of us would be here if it was simple. If its simple for you because you see much farther and more clearly, please enlighten me, the simple in your midst.
A reminder to everyone: personal attacks, even as retaliation, are unacceptable. You are responsible for yourself. If you'd like to have a discussion about how you feel wronged, please see this thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2270.0). Further discussion about this shall be directed to that post and will be deleted from this thread. Thanks.
I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1029.0
I'm not sure where the original source of any of this is, but the third series is currently named TSTSNBN, and as it stands, will be a duology. I think the lack of this information being readily available is the biggest problem. People think TUC is the intended end, and it isn't. Whether or not the series gets made is another story, I suppose.
Also, Bakker is having an AMA on August 2nd on reddit. He's mentioned that after the release of TUC he wants to share the actual name of the third series. You might want to check that AMA out.
When I originally conceived the whole story (The Second Apocalypse) way back when, it was a trilogy with The Prince of Nothing as the first book, The Aspect-Emperor as the second, and The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named as the third. But of course The Prince of Nothing has since become a trilogy in its own right, which would seem to suggest that The Second Apocalypse will be nine books long! I honestly have no idea how long it will ultimately be. My best guess is that The Aspect-Emperor and The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named will both be dualogies - if that's really a word...
The original plan was to write The Second Apocalypse (am I weird for loving that title as much as I do?) as a trilogy. Since the first installment, The Prince of Nothing turned into a trilogy in itself, I'm assuming the same thing will happen with the sequels.
With regards to TSTSNBN, hasnt Bakker also stated that upon finishing TUC that his "original" story was complete and he would be fine with falling dead tomorrow? Or, something aling those lines?After TGO, I never 100% trusted Bakker's words. So much for Cnaiür's arc being finished :P
So, what i take from that is this is the story he created as "Teen Bakker" and TSTSNBN is something he added on layer when he got into philosophy and such. As me and Wilshire were discussing, TSTSNBN will be the lesson or to show us what mankind is capable of without magic and technology. TSTSNBN is "Adult Philosophy Teacher Bakker" vision.
With regards to TSTSNBN, hasnt Bakker also stated that upon finishing TUC that his "original" story was complete and he would be fine with falling dead tomorrow? Or, something aling those lines?
So, what i take from that is this is the story he created as "Teen Bakker" and TSTSNBN is something he added on layer when he got into philosophy and such. As me and Wilshire were discussing, TSTSNBN will be the lesson or to show us what mankind is capable of without magic and technology. TSTSNBN is "Adult Philosophy Teacher Bakker" vision.
Dude, tell me about it. That was a straight up lie. Again, a masterful shot directly into his own foot. Now we have to question everything he says about his own book.
After TGO, I never 100% trusted Bakker's words. So much for Cnaiür's arc being finished :P
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.
I don't see any problem with not having a Disney fairy tale ending, myself. Hell, the overall series is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Btw, there is still a third series coming.
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.
I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.
I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.
Without TSTSNBN, the entire series will be less than it could have been, for me that's a certainty.
TSA is a warning to us about what might happen if we let Technology rule us, Nonmen and Inchoroi are both analogs for posthumanism.I strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
I worry for Bakker's future publications .
I strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
As for the series, I think TUC is a perfectly fine place to end, although we do indeed need at least a big AMA on Reddit or something to clear up questions and confusions. The ending is beautiful and un-expected. One of my favorite characters, despite his spare appearance, was Shaeönanra, so there was some disappointment upon learning he was dead, but overall the twist made up for it.
I also liked how the ending was left open for future installments. Just a good place to end overall.
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.I worry for Bakker's future publications .
Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
You'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?Quote from: TleilaxuI strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
As for the series, I think TUC is a perfectly fine place to end, although we do indeed need at least a big AMA on Reddit or something to clear up questions and confusions. The ending is beautiful and un-expected. One of my favorite characters, despite his spare appearance, was Shaeönanra, so there was some disappointment upon learning he was dead, but overall the twist made up for it.
I also liked how the ending was left open for future installments. Just a good place to end overall.
Uhhh, buddy, technology (Tekne) is what is causing the world to end. I.E., the No-God and all its weapon races. Not to mention what technology did to the Progenitors to make them want to reach Godhood. I think you got it backwards there, but thats just my opinion.
Yeah that doesn't worry me. Plenty of people here and elsewhere will be pissed off, but that's no different then every book so far. I'd rather that, than Bakker changing the story to pander to the lowest common denominator. He's the best writer I have ever read, but the story is (purposefully) difficult. If its ever a commercial success, it wont be any time soon - but that's probably a discussion for another time.I worry for Bakker's future publications .
Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
...I worry for Bakker's future publications .
Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?
... And that's, ultimately, the point.This is an interesting subject for me. I'm not sure I'm clear on exactly Bakker was/is driving at with TSA, but I do think that this touches on something of the theme - how easy it is for our heuristic minds to be manipulated and how difficult it is to see and to change once we've adopted that manipulation as our own. Definitely curious that Bakker has said he had to re-write much of PoN because beta readers were so sympathetic towards Kellhus. I feel Proyas is largely filling this role again in TAE, Kellhus telling us fairly directly he's an evil jackass - yet its impossible for many to even entertain the notion as possible let alone plausible.
As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.
Just finished the book. Ive been in self imposed exile from the boards for weeks. I must say.. meh. For the record i am 100% fine with the world ending and Mog running rampant. However, ~40% of the book devoted to agongorea? Come the hell on. Yes, we get it. Men = sranc. that is obvious to any casual study of man and history. I dont think we needed hundreds of pages of that.
I feel shortchanged. The Ark, the golden Ark, the inchies, Shae, where were the massive dumps of info? Keep in mind i literally just finished the book and have not read the appendices yet. But yeah..40% to the obvious and well worn tracks of the inhumanity of man was way too much.
Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.
Im looking forward to reading the thoughts of those that see deeper than i..but overall color me underwhelmed.
I'm glad you agree on the ending part, H.
I'm not an expert on how this world works, but according to Kellhus explanation the gods can't see the No-God or the Consult is because they cause the closing of the world from the Outside. So if the Great Ordeal succeed in stopping the Consult then the gods should be able to see the Consult. But they don't, so the Great Ordeal must fail. This is super circular and I'm not completely clear on the mechanics behind it, but it seems like the Consult were gonna end up winning from the start. Or maybe I misread something.
You'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?
Maybe not, but it's pretty clear what would've happened had the Great Ordeal succeeded. Ajokli and his angels casting the world into a new age of untold suffering. Even if we disregard all this, humanity is still at the mercy of angry Gods. Remember that there's objective morality in this world. You can be damned for following scripture that just happens to not be in complete accordance with the Gods' wills.Quote from: tleilaxuYou'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?
One, we have no idea what Kellhus's true goals were. But, he did state that it was to the Consult and prevent the rise of the No-God.
And, technology (Tekne, No-God) is trying to reduce the population of Earwa to 144,000. While destroying everything in the whirlwnds path and the those lucky 144,000? Well, theyll probably get to be sex puppets for Sranc and the rest of the Consult Weapons Races. So, technology will reduce this planet to nothing, nothing at all for mankind that is. So, how exacrly is technology good in this instance?That's just an assumption. There's no reason why the 144,000 remaining souls can't repopulate eventually.
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.
And I don't accept that every story with an unhappy ending is bad or pointless story. In many cases I would say shoehorning in a happy ending were it doesn't belong at least partially ruins the story rather than add to it. F.ex. in Harry Potter they had been hinting at Harry being a horcrux and the story therefore has to end with his death. But instead J. K. lives up to her name and inserts three super powerful magical objects that no one has ever heard of before just to fucking bring him back from the dead. That's bullshit and I'm super glad Bakker didn't do something like that. There are also plenty of american films that has destroyed the entire point of the film forcing the happy ending, f.ex. Limitless and I am Legend.
As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.
Love this. Very much articulating what I haven't yet.
Also I feel like I'm the only person in the world that feels that way about HP and the ending lol, glad to find another ;)
Tleilaxu, I'll give in on the first, if that was really Kellhus's plan. Mind you, im of the opinion he tricked the Trickster and is waging war on the Outside to stop damnation. No 100, no one to munch your souls.It's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.
But, technology is still being used to destroy a planet. I dont see how this in anyway can be looked at as a good thing. Remember, Earwa is just a continent. There are 2 more that we kbow of and might be more across the great sea. So, the No-God destroys EVERYONE on Earwa and the Outside is still not shut, what then? Move on to Eanna, and kill everyone there and still.....not shut. When does it end? What would be left?
It's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.
I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.
Just finished the book. Ive been in self imposed exile from the boards for weeks. I must say.. meh. For the record i am 100% fine with the world ending and Mog running rampant. However, ~40% of the book devoted to agongorea? Come the hell on. Yes, we get it. Men = sranc. that is obvious to any casual study of man and history. I dont think we needed hundreds of pages of that.
...
Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.I worry for Bakker's future publications .
Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
Bingo
Less leper licking more of the good stuff
Of course a half competent editor would have said the same
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I see. That's where we disagree then. The way I see it, Kellhus was very much in league with Ajokli e.g. "struck a treaty with the Pit", "his siblings are hunting him, he thinks he can hide here" etc. Kellhus wanted infinite power for himself through Ajokli, that is his madness and his path to the absolute. The thing about the Gods seeing is a good point, but Kellhus also says something that they are re-writing the Gods in Golgotterath, that the assassins sent that were doomed to succeed from the beginning become doomed to fail etc. It's kinda confusing. I don't think the story is complete, but I don't think that the No-God is going to be defeated either.Quote from: TleilaxuIt's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.
Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind). What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.
This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.
Either Kellhus Tricked the Trickster and will aid humanity through the Outside or it will be a tale of human perseverance. And, i think the latter is much more probable.
Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach.
I was loving the first half of the book, but as soon as the attack on the Ark begins, I was feeling a bit let down. I was expecting more of a look into the Ark and Golgotterath itself, more of what the stories and Akka's Dreams had made me envision. We didn't really get any of that; just a lot of fighting outside of it and a look into the Golden Room.
I think you're going to get this opinion from most people who aren't aware that a third series might be written (Just take a look at the Goodreads reviews- they read much like OP's post and don't seem to know there is a planned third series).
I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.
I've posted on this before and explained that I'm a huge fan of this series but I'm also disappointed in the ending. It's not so much the end goal of inverting the standard fantasy trope where the over-matched heroes find some miraculous way to save the world but rather the opaque narrative. I wanted to feel the full force of the world ending and the failure of what may have been the world's last best chance at survival but instead all I felt was a burning desire to read and reread the last chapter to figure out what the hell actually occurred. I've read it again and again and I still can't make heads or tails of it. And the real kicker is, neither can anyone else! Beyond strange theories and wild speculations, nobody can say with any degree of certainty just what happened, never mind discussing the why things happened the way they did.
I can't imagine Bakker's intention to wrap up this opus was to leave everyone completely confused but as his prose improved from book to book his narrative clarity got worse and worse. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Aspect Emperor series after the Judging Eye could have benefited greatly from a strong editor.
Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???
Not to mention all ensouled creatures across Earwa can perceive the No-God. Whatever his reasons, the Aspect-Emperor spoke true and wasn't warring across the wastes of Earwa against a myth.
Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind). What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.
Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???
We get day-to-day experience of a Nonman Erratic, we find out Ishual has been destroyed by the Consult, we get a POV from a Dunyain who is then exposed to the Judging Eye, and we get a baby pumped full of qirri in the womb, who may or may not be a receptacle for the soul of Kellhus. You're right about the reunion with Kellhus though
.....Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.I worry for Bakker's future publications .
Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
Wow, that's just blatant trolling. You don't read 7 books of The Second Apocalypse only to be offended by rape or child abuse at the very last one. I say circumfix the guy!.....Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.I worry for Bakker's future publications .
Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.I worry for Bakker's future publications .
Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.
Circumfixtion for one who isn't Zaudunyani?There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.
But i went and got my pitchfork
But now Bakker has spoken and confirmed that we will have more qirri, yeah, more books, so I'm so fucking relieved that nothing can bother me.
But now Bakker has spoken and confirmed that we will have more qirri, yeah, more books, so I'm so fucking relieved that nothing can bother me.
Whoa, did I miss something? I saw the Q&A thread, but the only thing I saw him mention was that the series has a lot going against it commercially. That and a few bits and pieces about the new series, but no confirmation that they would absolutely happen.
Tell me I missed something!
Circumfixtion for one who isn't Zaudunyani?There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.
But i went and got my pitchfork
We don't harvest the meat with pitchforks, now do we? Well,maybe it is a useful tool for stacking...
I think Bakker's got humanity pegged.
I believe that the lack of commercial appeal was regarding a film or television option for the books. The way I read it is that the No-God series is confirmed. If his publisher declines I will personally start a Kick-Starter to fund the self publication of the books!
Circumfix Madness too for defending blasphemy.Circumfixtion for one who isn't Zaudunyani?There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.
But i went and got my pitchfork
We don't harvest the meat with pitchforks, now do we? Well,maybe it is a useful tool for stacking...
I think Bakker's got humanity pegged.
Stow it, you two ;).
Everyone is allowed to express their opinion here. What we aren't going to do, collectively, is allow opinions worth challenging go unchallenged. But there's a wide mile between conversing and curcumfixing.I believe that the lack of commercial appeal was regarding a film or television option for the books. The way I read it is that the No-God series is confirmed. If his publisher declines I will personally start a Kick-Starter to fund the self publication of the books!
I imagine he's going to be fairly infrequent about answering but did anyone ask him about what happened to the TV rights being optioned as far back as last August?
Circumfixtion for one who isn't Zaudunyani?There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.
But i went and got my pitchfork
We don't harvest the meat with pitchforks, now do we? Well,maybe it is a useful tool for stacking...
I think Bakker's got humanity pegged.
Stow it, you two ;).
Everyone is allowed to express their opinion here. What we aren't going to do, collectively, is allow opinions worth challenging go unchallenged. But there's a wide mile between conversing and curcumfixing.
Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.
Welcome back, Rots.
On the former part, as Wilshire mentioned in another thread, half the book is decidedly not about the Ordeal Sranc-ifying. There are two chapters, the second of which was heavily cut on the recommendation of one of Bakker's long-time beta readers. Two of twenty chapters. It's an example of the availability heurisitic at work.
I suspect, given the data, that we could probably map how desensitized readers are or aren't based on how much they fixate on these two chapters as being representative of the whole book.
On the latter, the editing of TGO and TUC by Overlook has been atrocious. I've been comparing the notes I sent to Bakker regarding the draft while I've been reading the canon artifact and, as with TGO, none of the mundane errors I caught then were fixed...
I'm on Chapter Four when I pick it up today again but I suspect all the errors are still there.
Circumfix Madness too for defending blasphemy.
I was just joking about a pitchfork.
Haha, sorry madness, just trying to prove Bakker's point re: mob violence, online or otherwise. Just like when he waded into gamer gate and was attacked from both sides, here we are about to scourge a person who has read the books! And that's always my first goal. Read it. Then judge.
I worry too. Observations about the exact amount of chapters spent dedicated to needless, lavishly detailed, debasement is an immaculate token of pedantry.
It was a mistake to include it in any significant length when core components of the story remain illusive and deeply unresolved. There was a period of debate, but now that the article is available on both sides of the pond we can safely move from the debate of whether or not it was a mistake and firmly embrace that it was an error and now opine just how grave of one.
Your mileage may vary and all that.
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology...If I've given the impression I'm after a Disney hero win, that wasnt my intention. Oedipus' tale is an example of a non happy ending I enjoyed. I will hesitantly chuck The Walking Dead comics up as another example of non-Disney hero wins. Or any of Bakkers previous 6 books in the series, theyre grim but not as blunt as "And so the Great Ordeal of Anisurimbor Kellhus ended in blood and butchery" or whatever the final sentence was.
----------Im being very black and white about this ... Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.
What am i missing here?I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".... Can you explain a bit more what you mean?
Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.
What parts bothered you? What specifically was a let down? Who do you feel are the good guys, and for that matter, the bad guys, and which group do you believe won?
That generic 'critique', if you can call it that, can be applied to just about anything with only the slightest of adjustments....
So if you'd like to have a conversation about what you think, you're going to have to, well, let people know what you actually think, otherwise there's nothing here to discuss.
Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?
Can't remember where it's stated, but the Nail only appeared in the sky shortly before Arkfall, the implication being that it's something to do with the Inchoroi.
Digression: I appreciate your moderation, have had a few hours trawling the forums today and i rarely see mods on forums that give a shit as much as you do, so for what its worth keep it up :) Madness is likewise doing a great job.
On the whole this place seems to be one of the least toxic places ive come accross...barring the start to my own thread haha!
Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?
Huh, weird I'd always assumed the Nail to be the moon. Seems its just a bright star which may or may not be something more....
Is there any reference to a moon? Im sure there are some passages that happen at night under the light of the Nail being stronger sometimes then at others. Maybe I'm dreaming.
In the text, or specifically TUC, there is no further details about the Nail. However, in the Bakker sanctioned "History of Earwa" from Wert a la Wertzone, there is a brief mention that the Nail appears shortly (a few year?) prior to Arkfall, and that it actually appears to 'shoot' a deathstarian beam at the ground just before the Ark explodes into Agongorea
Sorry ER, I'm used to having a lot of context for what individuals around here think. We've been so small for so long that the handful that hang around have had time to get used to eachothers shorthand. Then overnight the forum went from 5-10 posts a day to 100+ with 10x the normal number of posters lol. I'm glad our flailing around trying to keep things reasonable didn't drive you off. Regarding 'for what its worth': its worth a lot. Thanks ;) .
Having said it in other places, I'll be brief. I agree with the "What the hell?" sentiment for TUC's end overall. I was loving the first half of the book, but as soon as the attack on the Ark begins, I was feeling a bit let down. I was expecting more of a look into the Ark and Golgotterath itself, more of what the stories and Akka's Dreams had made me envision. We didn't really get any of that; just a lot of fighting outside of it and a look into the Golden Room.
Many of the plotlines that were set up aren't concluded (Crabicus, Ciphrang Assassin, Meppa, to name a few off the top of my head), and that's without acknowledging that the book creates a huge amount of questions at the end without explaining any of them. I think the ending would have felt more satisfying if it all hadn't happened so fast. However, right as you're expecting to get all of the answers, the entire plot turns on its head and the book ends.
Now, I love the way the story concludes by itself. The last line gives me chills. I think ending the story on disaster like this is awesome. I just wish that it had felt more coherent and less rushed. Keeping in mind that this is the conclusion to a series of books, I feel a bit cheated. I think you're going to get this opinion from most people who aren't aware that a third series might be written (Just take a look at the Goodreads reviews- they read much like OP's post and don't seem to know there is a planned third series).
I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.
From the very first mention in the book, I've always read the Nail of Heaven to be an equivalent of the Polestar/ Polaris, the way it's used in navigation.
I'm slowly becoming convinced that Earwan astrophysics are as different from our own as the metaphysics.From the very first mention in the book, I've always read the Nail of Heaven to be an equivalent of the Polestar/ Polaris, the way it's used in navigation.
Yes, but the variation of its light intensity before the crush of the Ark implies some relation.
Is it a portal/wormhole? Is it an inchoroi spacial station?
At least, there weren't any that Ajencis knew of when he wrote. It's also possible that Eärwa's star system just doesn't have that many planets. Personally I always felt that everything pointed to the universe outside of Eärwa's planet being much the same as ours.He implies comparing different charts. Spotting planets is a pretty elementary part of astronomy.
A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"
Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.
7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"
What am i missing here?