What is the No God?

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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2013, 06:58:04 pm »
Quote from: Soterion
Madness: thanks for the definition.  I live in Florida currently, but my copy of The Thousandfold Thought is still in the basement of my parents' house up in NY.

There is definitely something paradoxical about the No-God, but I think there is something paradoxical about the God as well.  If Bakker is drawing from his philosophical education, I can't imagine he would make a kind of superficial connection between consciousness and an omniscient God.  Of course, this might be what the characters within the spiritual ideology of the Three Seas believe; but I feel that Bakker's working to subvert traditional, usually naive notions of God and consciousness.  If the God is a kind of omniscience and omnipotence, the No-God must be a bit of this as well; each one is inextricable from the other.  This is the paradox I perceive here: if the God constitutes itself as something infinite, and yet it opposes itself to the No-God, then it has constructed a finite boundary for itself.  It is everything, and yet it is NOT the No-God...

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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2013, 06:58:11 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Just suggesting a couple thoughts.

There was an old Three Seas theory concerning the No-God being the captured World Soul, which manifests itself in division (different consciousnesses or the "ensouled" as it were).

Then there's the distinctions of immanent and transcendent. Essentially, I, again, don't see these two ideas as even incompatible. Clearly, in my mind, a transcendent God, if it exists, is the very grounds, or foundation, for the emergence of an immanent God.

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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2013, 06:58:22 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
Just to clarify, I'm not saying the God of Earwa is paradoxical (not discounting this either). I'm just noting how Scott has related the apprehension paradox to both the soul and the God.

Think about this question - the Chorae were made after the Aporos practioners were already forbidden from continuing their work:

Quote
Forbidden from practicing their art under Cû'jara-Cinmoi, they were seduced by the Inchoroi, whose loss of the Battle of Pir Pahal had been largely due to the power of Quya. The practicioners of the Aporos created for their masters the first Chorae, which rendered their bearers immune to magic and killed Quya on touch

Why was this the case? Was it already known that the Aporos could undo sorcery? Or was the Aporos dangerous because of what it revealed about the Outside?

eta: grammar

eta II: I mention revelations about the Outside because Mimara in her first divine vision mentions the "false foil of the abyss" or some such.

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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2013, 06:58:31 pm »
Quote from: Madness
That's an interesting perspective. I had actually just assumed that there are Aporotic sorcerers out there - the Chorae being another magical artifact like the Whore's Shell, Waithi Doll, Agonic collar, the Gate at the Coffers, Kellhus' fireplace, the Arras in the Umbilicus, the sorcererous sheets that hang from Sauglish's walls, or Mimara's Mihtrulic dagger and armor (apologies for lack of names or page numbers and improper spelling, I'm not at home with the books).

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« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2013, 06:58:39 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
I think the idea that it need to continually feed off of souls or the severing of souls from the Outside is a very good idea.  And that could help explain why it took the field. 

We do not know enough about it at this point to assume that The Consult made a huge error in letting it take the field because we don't know if they were fully in control or had a choice.

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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2013, 06:58:48 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
I like the idea that it [meaning the No-God] needs constant maintenance and that if the Consult had been defeated it wouldn't have anyone to keep it alive.

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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2013, 06:58:55 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
After wrangling with ideas about the No-God for hours on end with a friend, we have come to this conclusion: it was a Demonic Richard Nixon. The whirlwind built from a mighty 'HAROOOOOOO!' Aurang was his Checkers.

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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2013, 06:59:02 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Triskele
I think the idea that it need to continually feed off of souls or the severing of souls from the Outside is a very good idea.  And that could help explain why it took the field. 

We do not know enough about it at this point to assume that The Consult made a huge error in letting it take the field because we don't know if they were fully in control or had a choice.

Not just severing souls' connection to the outside, but creating a new outside by gobbling up souls like a proto-god of the hundred variety?
That could tie into my old speculation that the no-god took to the field at Mengedda to create a mega-topos as the human population was reduced to 144k.

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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2013, 06:59:11 pm »
Quote from: Ajokli
Quote from: Sideris
After wrangling with ideas about the No-God for hours on end with a friend, we have come to this conclusion: it was a Demonic Richard Nixon. The whirlwind built from a mighty 'HAROOOOOOO!' Aurang was his Checkers.

I would except this.

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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2013, 06:59:24 pm »
Quote from: Borric
In Achamians later dreams involving seswathas son, we see him in a line of people about to enter a torture chamber in the heart of Golgotterath (probably the inverse flame room?).
Here is the extract for the time period for the death of Nau-Cayûti and the summoning of the No-god.

 ■2140 - Nau-Cayûti’s beloved concubine, Aulisi, is abducted by Sranc marauders and taken to Golgotterath. According to The Sagas Seswatha was able to convince the Prince (who was once his student) that she could be rescued from the Incû-Holoinas, and the two of them embarked on an expedition that is almost certainly apocryphal. Mandate commentators dispute the account found in The Sagas, where they successfully return with both Aulisi and the Heron Spear, claiming that Aulisi was never found. Whatever happened, at least two things are certain: the Heron Spear was in fact recovered, and Nau-Cayûti died shortly after at age 21 (apparently poisoned by his first wife, Iëva).[112]

■2141 - The Consult return to the offensive. At the Battle of Skothera, the Sranc hordes are crushed by General En-Kaujalau, though he died of mysterious causes within weeks of this victory (according to The Sagas, he was another victim of Iëva and her poisons, but again this is disputed by Mandate scholars).[113]

■2142 - General Sag-Marmau inflicts yet another crushing defeat on Aurang and his Consult legions, and by fall he had hounded the remnant of their horde to the Gates of Golgotterath itself. This siege is known as the Second Great Investiture.[114]

■2143 - In spring the No-God is summoned. Across the world, Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu, all the obscene progeny of the Inchoroi, hearkened to his call. Sag-Marmau and the greater glory of Kûniüri are annihilated. All Men could sense his dread presence on the horizon, and all infants were born dead. The 11 years when all infants were still born comes to be known as the Years of the Crib. Anasûrimbor Celmomas II had little difficulty gathering support for his Second Ordeal. Nil’giccas and Celmomas were reconciled. Across Eärwa, hosts of Men began marching toward Kûniüri.[115]


We know Nau-Cayûti didnt die right away from poison, but was encased in a coffin and sent to Golgotterath, we also see the opening of the coffin by one of the Inchoroi.
Therefore whatever was happening to that line of people, was directly related to the summoning of the No-god.
Whatever is needed to create/summon the No-god requires the suffering/torture (death) of people. Some essence they can harness somehow?


The No god was not summoned/created when the inchies landed, nor for thousands of years of war, and it sounded like they needed it.
Therefore i think the no-god was an idea of there new human allies. On hearing of the 144k prerequisite to avoid damnation. That clever leader of the Mangaecca came up with another brain storm. A weapon of mass destruction.

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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2013, 06:59:41 pm »
Quote from: Twooars
Quote from: Borric
The No god was not summoned/created when the inchies landed, nor for thousands of years of war, and it sounded like they needed it.
Therefore i think the no-god was an idea of there new human allies. On hearing of the 144k prerequisite to avoid damnation. That clever leader of the Mangaecca came up with another brain storm. A weapon of mass destruction.

I agree with this, and it stands to reason, as the No-God's creation/summoning required sorcery (I am assuming that the chorae embedded in the carapace have some significance and not just ornamentation!) and the Inchoroi had no sorcery before they came down on Earwa.

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« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2013, 06:59:49 pm »
Quote from: Borric
They may well have had sorcery.
I can’t remember when sorcery was grafted into them, but it may have been long before the No-Gods arrival. 
Hmm, i remember this being mentioned in a interview with Scott, ill go cut and paste the question.
Found it, here you go.

Is Aurang special amongst the Inchoroi in his ability to use Sorcery? Or were all Inchoroi, his brother included, amongst the Few? 

The Inchoroi only possessed the Tekne when they arrived in Eärwa. All of the Inchoroi are the products of successive Graftings, species-wide rewrites of their genotype, meant to enhance various abilities and capacities, such as the ability to elicit certain sexual responses from their victims (via pheromone locks), or the capacity to ‘tune sensations’ and so explore the vagaries and vicissitudes of carnal pleasure. The addition of anthropomorphic vocal apparatuses is perhaps the most famous of these enhancements.

The Grafting that produced Aurang and Aurax was also devised during the age-long C no-Inchoroi Wars, one of many failed attempts to biologically redesign themselves to overcome the Nonmen. But they had been outrun by their debauchery by this time, and had lost any comprehensive understanding of the Tekne. The Graftings had become a matter of guesswork, more likely to kill than enhance those who received them. The Inchoroi filled the Wells of the Aborted with their own in those days.

Aurang and Aurax are two of six who survived the attempt to Graft the ability to see the onta.

So they had sorcery during the C no-Inchoroi Wars. That’s long before the first apocalypse period when the Mangaecca show up.
So sorcery was not the show stopper for the summoning of the No-God.

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« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2013, 07:00:04 pm »
Quote from: Twooars
Good point Borric, I remember that interview now.

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« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2013, 07:00:10 pm »
Quote from: themerchant
So i was reading about the massive black-hole they're tracking which has actually be ejected from a Galaxy which is pretty novel relative to modern thinking or so i read, i'm not an expert.

However when following some links I see this description: 

"Furthermore, as you fall, there are things that have been falling in front of you that have experienced an even greater 'time dilation' than you have. So if you're able to look forward toward the black hole, you see every object that has fallen into it in the past. And then if you look backwards, you'll be able to see everything that will ever fall into the black hole behind you.

"So the upshot is, you'll get to see the entire history of that spot in the universe simultaneously," he said, "from the Big Bang all the way into the distant future."

So maybe the outside is a huge singularity and when you enter it cause of time dilation you are able to see everything in front and everything behind, with respects to the god. That's also why its for enternity.

I don't know how relevant , but it made me think of the gods when i read that bit.

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« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2013, 07:00:18 pm »
Quote from: Borque
Quote from: Borric
Therefore i think the no-god was an idea of there new human allies. On hearing of the 144k prerequisite to avoid damnation. That clever leader of the Mangaecca came up with another brain storm. A weapon of mass destruction.
I think Wutteat mentioned that they had reduced the population to 144k on various worlds before they came to Eärwa, but this didn't work. So that particular figure was somehow known to before.

However, I'm sure Nau-Cayûti is part of the No-God somehow. Take a look at the Celmomian Prophecy scene:
Quote from: TDTCB
"My son... Do you think he'll be there, Seswatha? Do you think he’ll greet me as his father?"

"Yes... As his father, and as his king."

"Did I ever tell you," Celmomas said, his voice cracking with futile pride, "that my son once stole into the deepest pits of Golgotterath?"

"Yes." Achamian smiled through his tears. "Many times, old friend."

"How I miss him, Seswatha! How I yearn to stand at his side once again."

The old king wept for a moment. Then his eyes grew wide. "I see him so clearly. He’s taken the sun as his charger, and he rides among us. I see him! Galloping through the hearts of my people, stirring them to wonder and fury!"

"Shush... Conserve your strength, my King. The surgeons are coming."

"He says... says such sweet things to give me comfort. He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha — an Anasurimbor will return..." A shudder wracked the old man, forcing breath and spittle through his teeth.

"At the end of the world."

My interpretation is that the "sun" Celmomas sees here is the No-God - operating like the "great light" radiating love and good stuff that is often described in near-death experiences. To draw souls to itself instead of to the outside.

Taking this one step further - Naû-Cayuti could possibly have been exposed to the Inverse Fire, and chosen to side with the consult and be a part of Mog, in exchange for being allowed among the 144.000 after having helped luring souls in. This would imply that the Anasûrimbor returning at the end of the world would be Nau himself.