The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: TaoHorror on April 18, 2014, 09:41:00 pm
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Apologies if this is already been addressed, new member here and couldn't find anything using the "Search". I read all the books ( 5 so far ) and miss the Non-man with the faces all over his cloak, the dude who put the boot to Kellhus' hind side in the beginning. That stayed with me, always thinking "my goodness, Kellhus is so powerful and something's out there that easily bested him ... ". He was wandering the 3 Seas telling people he was impossibly ancient and beutiful, I think and then nothing thereafter best I can tell. I take it he was/is Metrikitrich ( spelling! the one who tortured Seswartha on the wall 2,000 years before ). Anyone know more?
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\Bakker revealed his identity a long time ago on the Three Seas forum (which you guessed correctly). Though that meant that there were some continuity issues with the whole "I fought for and against the No-God", which Bakker also confirmed. But to be honest, I wouldn't mind if he's simply some unknown Nonman from the Consult or Ishterebinth.
An interesting question though is who's the face that he said reminded him of Kellhus?
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Ah, thanks! The Consult - still a little confused on that one. They're "human" sorcerers ... they're the skin-spies too I think ... so they teamed with the aliens and used their Tekne to develop the skin-spy ability ... hmm, maybe not, maybe the skin-spies are "products" of the Consult using the Tekne because the "thing" tracking Mimara in the White Luck Warrior didn't have a soul, so if it was one of the Consult Sorcerers themselves then it would have a soul being a human. I love the play with conscious creatures with no soul still having free will ( the "thing" seemed to "like" Mimara which suggests a will of some kind, to deviate from plan with preferences ... so either nobody has a soul or others beyond human have souls too ... I guess ).
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Welcome to TSA, Toahorror.
The consult are comprised of the last two Inchoroi (Aurax and Aurang), the human sorcerers of the Nosarai school of the Mangecea (Shaenora is their leader) and an unknown number of nonman erratics (including Mekeritrig) and members of the Quyan school of Aporetic Sorcery (who made the chorae).
The weapon races (Sranc, Bashrag and Wracu) are soulless (excepting rare cases like the one that could use sorcery and posed as Skeos). Think of them like advanced AI's - although their situation is similar to animals (i.e. soulless except in very rare cases). Nonmen, Inchoroi and Humans all have souls and therefore are concerned about damnation.
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Thank you, glad to be here! And thank you for being kind to respond - amazing, those few sentences cleared up a year+ of confusion. Nicely done, sir!
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I took the question of the face reminding him of Kellhus to be of personality/situation and not appearance. Could be an old relative, but thought more that it was someone "feisty", hard to kill perhaps. Mekeritrig ( and thanks for the correct spelling ) is one of my favorite characters in the books, his "conversation" with Seswatha on the wall was ... memorable. I have to hand it to Bakker, he's amazing with evil ( not accurate, but can't think of the right word - alien perhaps ) logic and pathology. His descriptions of the apocalypse with dragons falling from the sky picking off panic scattered humans was terrifying - pangs at something deep in me, something "not right" with humans so helpless against animals - our ingenuity, our resourcefulness, our intellect ... none of it enough to stop the annihilation - the only thing that worked was something of the enemies' own manufacture.
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Oops, I said Skeos above, but I meant Akka's old teacher from the Mandate - forget his name right now. Skeos was the Ikurei advisor - apologies!
I believe the face on Mek's cloak may have been an Anasurimbor ancestor. I think that comes after Kellhus tells Mek his name? Nau Cayuti or Celmomas, perhaps? Akka muses about how similar they look at other points.
I agree - the weapon races are truly nasty and Bakker's dragons are some of the best in fantasy. Right proper scary, like flying dinosaurs made of magic and metal should be.
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Are we sure that the Consult still has the Aopretic Quya who made the Chorae? I think I remember Bakker saying that the Aporos is supposed to be an old dead branch of sorcery.
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Don't see why not. The non-men are immortal and quya with aporetic knowledge sided with the Inchies and produce the chorae for them.
The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own
intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several
renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of
thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.
The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to
undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos.
Aporetic Cants have no other effect. Salting is actually a kind of side effect. I would
rather wait until TTT comes out before discussing the metaphysics - it has to do with the
Mark.
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My original idea was for the Aporos to be a 'dead and ancient' branch of the esoterics. I'm
still leaning in that direction, but I find the notion of a sorcery based on a semantics of
contradiction and paradox almost too juicy to resist!
Quote comes from when he was still working on the PoN trilogy. "Dead and ancient" could also be interpreted as meaning that the applications are strictly limited.
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Oops, I said Skeos above, but I meant Akka's old teacher from the Mandate - forget his name right now. Skeos was the Ikurei advisor - apologies!
I think it was Simas.
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Hello TaoHorror! I'd like to know about that face too, but a little part of me says that Bakker was just getting started there and he may not follow up with that detail. Would be cool though! What if Mekeritrig got Celmomas face somehow or its Nau-Cayuti???
OR..what if there has been a whole line of Kellhus clones produced and Mekeritrig has a whole cloak of them??? Our Kellhus is the only one who survived!
or maybe its seswatha
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Lol - I've always been bugged by just who Kellhus reminds Mekeritrig of...
I took the question of the face reminding him of Kellhus to be of personality/situation and not appearance. Could be an old relative, but thought more that it was someone "feisty", hard to kill perhaps.
I like this thought.
Quote comes from when he was still working on the PoN trilogy. "Dead and ancient" could also be interpreted as meaning that the applications are strictly limited.
+1 - this is what I hope and think; I kind of remember a later quote where he seemed to be reconsidering its future application to the story.
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Depends whether the No-god is a creation of aporetic sorcery or tekne, I guess. The chorae on the carapace could be indicative of either.
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If it's a design of the Inchoroi, Tekne first, sorcery second.
However, the Inchoroi seem to have known about a world where sorcery was possible - so they easily might have planned for the future...
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I think sorcery was an unexpected application of metaphysics the Inchies couldn't quite conceive manipulating with the Tekne alone.
Especially if they hit their own semantic apocalypse and lost the ability to properly understand certain spiritual qualia such as suffering and compassion.
They have the Inverse Fire - presumably created with Tekne. Therefore they must have known of the outside.
No reason to me that the Tekne could not be used to design something like the no-god. Sorcery might just bridge certain gaps.
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They have the Inverse Fire - presumably created with Tekne. Therefore they must have known of the outside.
No reason to me that the Tekne could not be used to design something like the no-god. Sorcery might just bridge certain gaps.
Hmm...
Can you elaborate on the italics and how it follows that knowing of the Outside means knowing of sorcery?
On the bold, that has been my loose argument but I got the sense you were suggesting that that the No-God could be a product of sorcery alone and I disagree with that.
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They have the Inverse Fire - presumably created with Tekne. Therefore they must have known of the outside.
No reason to me that the Tekne could not be used to design something like the no-god. Sorcery might just bridge certain gaps.
Hmm...
Can you elaborate on the italics and how it follows that knowing of the Outside means knowing of sorcery?
On the bold, that has been my loose argument but I got the sense you were suggesting that that the No-God could be a product of sorcery alone and I disagree with that.
On your question, my assertion is that knowledge of the Outside implies that something like sorcery is hypothetically possible.
Without the intrinsic abilities of voice and extrasensory perception, the Inchies were unable to concieve the methods that Earwan sorcerers employ to summon and manipulate the metaphysical forms and energies. Thus, sorcery (as we readers see it) was a surprise to them, but also a confirmation - not a contradiction.
Similarly, I think that Earwans were/are capable of developing something like the tekne, given the correct tools.
As to the No-god, my suggestion was that the Tekne might have suggested such a thing as possible by theoretical design, but that the Aporos filled in the gaps to make a practical reality.
For example;
Dr Inchstein writes that, if we could somehow capture lesser creatures' souls and delete the information from them, we could combine them to create an alternate outside, and ward it with some type of metaphysical contradiction that would deny the rule of the purely non-physical beings that damn us. We could then use ontalogical Tekne grafts to link ourselves to this 'no-god' and avoid the domination of these 'meta-creatures' of the Outside (see Inchstein's paper on "Proof of the Afterlife")and thus forestall our eternal doom.
Of course, with no methods available with which to 'capture souls' and the purely theoretical idea of 'contradiction fields', we should proceed with our current strategy to exterminate other sentient beings universally.
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Lol, Dr. Inchstein--I was hearing Dr. Strangelove
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On your question, my assertion is that knowledge of the Outside implies that something like sorcery is hypothetically possible.
Without the intrinsic abilities of voice and extrasensory perception, the Inchies were unable to concieve the methods that Earwan sorcerers employ to summon and manipulate the metaphysical forms and energies. Thus, sorcery (as we readers see it) was a surprise to them, but also a confirmation - not a contradiction.
Similarly, I think that Earwans were/are capable of developing something like the tekne, given the correct tools.
Entertaining but unclear. It doesn't follow for me that knowledge of the Outside would make knowledge of sorcery obvious?
Also, the Inchoroi "made sounds," the Cunoroi just couldn't understand them.
And don't the Dunyain and determinism/materialism-lite make it somewhat clear that Earwa still exists in a material world - wouldn't anyone be able to discover Tekne? Earwa simply had no reason to advance past a certain point technologically unless it was in rebellion to sorcery specifically?
Lol - Anti-Luddite Earwans.
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Mmmmhhh, that discussion leads me to the old question: "What is so special about Eärwa?" Why do the inchies think, it is their PROMISED world, like Wutteät says?
Is it the presence or the interaction with the Outside? Or maybe the using of sorcery by the population of Eärwa?
So many questions, whirling around in my head, when I click on a thread here. ;)
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It doesn't follow for me that knowledge of the Outside would make knowledge of sorcery obvious?
I didn't suggest that it makes sorcery obvious, I said it makes it conceivable.
Sorcery makes the existence of the outside obvious - in part because it is clearly the source of magical power, but also because it is applied via the soul.
Sure, Earwan's could have independently discovered some version of the Tekne (indeed, the skin spies are likely the result of the Mangeccea's efforts). Agree that they had no need - and yes, the dunyain seem to have progressed along some similar lines - possibly because they reject sorcery, possibly because they rebel against TDTCB.
I know the Inchies originally made sounds, but they clearly also communicate by other means - such as pheromones and touch. Just as they couldn't naturally see the onta, there could easily be some other faculties that they possess that Humans and Nonmen lack that made using the Tekne (with its grafts and genetic manipulations) a lot easier and more natural for them.
Kellhus is not surprised by the Tekne at all when he works out what the skin spies are, he quickly connects it to the Dunyain knowledge of physiology.
Similarly, the Inchies worked out how to graft the ability to use sorcery via the Tekne.
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It doesn't follow for me that knowledge of the Outside would make knowledge of sorcery obvious?
I didn't suggest that it makes sorcery obvious, I said it makes it conceivable.
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Similarly, the Inchies worked out how to graft the ability to use sorcery via the Tekne.
I kind of get where you are coming from. But I really don't think that looking at the Outside through the IF (if that is what it does) necessarily suggests that Outside extends into the world and, in certain cases, when it does so it enables some individuals to be able to work sorcery (or whatever they might theoretically call it without being exposed to sorcery first).
I don't know if we're missing each other :-\.
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Ugh, I'll try a clunky analogy.
Say, for example that the advent of television revealed the existence of hell and damnation to us. How long do you think it would take for scientists to include that evidence into their work? It ceases to be philosophy. One can now measure, extrapolate and test.
The relationship between meaning and the mundane works only through sentient beings. There must be an overlap, the outside extends into the Earwaverse through every sentient beings' soul.
The idea that some beings can use that to impose meaning on the mundane is implicitly connected to what happens to that soul on the outside, where the mundane existence (your life) is completely subsumed by the meaning reflected back from the mundane. Damnation implies meaning has a measurable real world effect, an overlap of frequencies, perhaps. You don't need to be of the few for the outside to leak in through you.
The Inchies have done their research. They managed to work out that their damnation meant there were other sentient beings who were imposing meaning on the mundane somewhere. They have calculated 144k souls as some kind of tipping point, thus their quest. They had plans for leaving animals intact, immortality treatments, genomorphing and probably theoretical ideas for imposing meaning in designs like Mog if they could harness their quarry's abilities.
The Inchies couldn't leverage sorcery but they probably had proof it was theoretically possible and were able to adapt it, even without proper mastery of the Tekne - once they saw how it worked.
Finally finding a race of sentient beings that could actually use sorcery to impose meaning might have been seen as a sign of the promised land, perhaps one predicted by the long dead Tekne masters.
That's the best I can explain it - it all seems pretty consistent to me.
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It's fairly good, really. I don't think I disagree with you as much as I don't really care about this particular content.
So to sum up for myself your thoughts On Theoretical Sorcery: The Inchoroi make a TV but where we have static from cosmic background raditation they have Damnation. They would be able to understand the phenomenon by Teknological experimentation. We assume they come to understand that Damnation is both real and occurs because somewhere in the Uni(omni?)verse, a number of souls impose their meaning on the Outside which imposes it's meaning on all ensoulled creatures in the Uni(omni?)verse? (This last part is the weakest aspect I can find, the links in that last run-on sentence).
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Yeah, not really. Bad analogy, sorry. Shae experiences the Inverse Fire, he doesn't just see it, it's really nothing like a television. Maybe if you discovered that every channel was already filled with scenes from your life played out in variations - something like 'Rixty Minutes' but concerned only with your suffering? Lol, idk.
The point is that personal beliefs and meanings are completed subsumed by external ones that persist after death. Obviously, a system must exist for imposing variations of said meaning. The gods are one example, sorcerers another. Earwa is the promised land dude - the Inchies knew to expect someplace where the ground itself would remember.
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Maybe if you discovered that every channel was already filled with scenes from your life played out in variations - something like 'Rixty Minutes' but concerned only with your suffering? Lol, idk.
Lol made sense.
The point is that personal beliefs and meanings are completed subsumed by external ones that persist after death. Obviously, a system must exist for imposing variations of said meaning. The gods are one example, sorcerers another. Earwa is the promised land dude - the Inchies knew to expect someplace where the ground itself would remember.
I'm still unsure. I just like to try for succinct clarity :).
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Sorry, its hard to imagine how meaning can be implicit and retain its subjective frame at the same time. It just doesn't lend itself to clarity or brevity, I think.
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I kind of get where you are coming from. But I really don't think that looking at the Outside through the IF (if that is what it does) necessarily suggests that Outside extends into the world
Why not? If the Inchoroi didn't believe that the Outside was connected to them in some personal way, they wouldn't be so afraid of it. By being able to create a way to see it, it is inherently connected to this space/time in some way.
and, in certain cases, when it does so it enables some individuals to be able to work sorcery (or whatever they might theoretically call it without being exposed to sorcery first).
I don't know if we're missing each other :-\.
This is where the disconnect is, I think.
Curethan is just saying that when the Inchoroi discovered that there was something outside of their realm of physics/reality/science, they might have theorized ways that it (the outside) interacted with the known universe. Since it interacted (somehow) with them, there must be (theoretically) a way to interact with it. Without sorcery and the preceptory organs to grasp the Onta, they where never able to move beyond theory.
Once they discovered sorcery, they found could put their theories into practical use. All they needed was a little genetic grafting and a teacher...
This assumes, I guess, that the Outside is indeed responsible for Sorcery. If what the IF shows is not the Outside, or if the Gods/meta-physics are somehow not connected with the Outside the IF shows, or if none of it is connected to sorcery, and if the Inchoroi knew all that to be true, then Sorcery would be have been a complete surprise.
Even if the Inchoroi couldn't conceive of a way to use the Outside (i.e. Sorcery) to alter the world, they would at least have dismissed it as an impossible scientific construct. Once the saw Sorcery, it would have tipped them off that they were wrong. The Inchoroi might not even see a distinction between Sorcery and mundane Physics. Afterall, their Tekne was able to dupulicate the ability to wield it. They simply extended their scientific know-how into the the "spiritual" realm.
Hope that didn't just make things more confusing.
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I'm tied up with the idea that the energy and forms required for sorcery come from somewhere. Sorcery turns on meaning and the Outside seems to be comprised of just that. The term itself implies a source that is channeled and is, I feel, deliberately chosen for that reason.
The idea that Damnation eclipses any personal frame of reference demonstrates that the physical world itself has meaning; i.e. meaning is not internal and personal but exists within shared reality.
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That hinges on Mimara's Judging Eye, since I'm guessing thats where "damnation eclipses any personal frame" comes from. I hope that it does truly show some kind of objective reality... I need a anchor, I'm growing tired of floating around in speculations. Something needs to provide a concrete ground with which to judge other things by.... or else we'll never make head/tails of anything.
I'm tied up with the idea that the energy and forms required for sorcery come from somewhere. Sorcery turns on meaning and the Outside seems to be comprised of just that. The term itself implies a source that is channeled and is, I feel, deliberately chosen for that reason.
Meaning from where (who?)? If it is internal, then there is a paradox, if it is external it must come from something/somewhere/somebody.
Generally though, I like the idea.
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That hinges on Mimara's Judging Eye, since I'm guessing thats where "damnation eclipses any personal frame" comes from. I hope that it does truly show some kind of objective reality... I need a anchor, I'm growing tired of floating around in speculations. Something needs to provide a concrete ground with which to judge other things by.... or else we'll never make head/tails of anything.
Actually, it comes from Shae's reference to experimenting with torture after viewing the IF. As nasty as the Consult are, damnation is much worse. Therefore the torments waiting in the afterlife must be more than what has been experienced in their mortal life.
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Oh I misread it. I thought you meant the damnation affects everyone, rather than damnation is worse than any other conceivable experience.
In which case, after re-reading, I'm not sure I understand how you reach your conclusions
The idea that Damnation eclipses any personal frame of reference demonstrates that the physical world itself has meaning; i.e. meaning is not internal and personal but exists within shared reality.
How does the pain/horror the IF shows demonstrate the world has meaning, and further that this meaning is shared?
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Well, it's basically that the afterlife is greater than the sum of your own experience. Imagine if there were no outside and when one died they were trapped within the breadth of their own experience, the boundary of their soul so to speak - it would be impossible to relive/recall anything worse than what had been experienced in life or that could be imagined as an extension of that, even with perfect recall.
What was earthly anguish compared what awaited them? Singular. Ephemeral. Little more than a bauble laid upon the monumental steps of the wretchedness to come.
Torment, pain and anguish are nothing but meanings, they have no external existence in our world.
In the Earwaverse, however, the IF is proof positive that these things have an actual existence beyond individual interpretation.
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Alright I see what you are saying now, but I don't agree.
An external and somewhat omnipotent force/being is inflicinting pain on you as an individual. The fact that it eclipses your own personal frame of referance isn't surprising at all, especially because your imagined horror probably didn't even include all the things that were even possible. in the physical realm.
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Well, it's basically that the afterlife is greater than the sum of your own experience. Imagine if there were no outside and when one died they were trapped within the breadth of their own experience, the boundary of their soul so to speak - it would be impossible to relive/recall anything worse than what had been experienced in life or that could be imagined as an extension of that, even with perfect recall.
What was earthly anguish compared what awaited them? Singular. Ephemeral. Little more than a bauble laid upon the monumental steps of the wretchedness to come.
Torment, pain and anguish are nothing but meanings, they have no external existence in our world.
In the Earwaverse, however, the IF is proof positive that these things have an actual existence beyond individual interpretation.
Maybe! Part of me still thinks the IF is some kind of noble lie to get the Inchoroi to do X. Some long-ago entity reckoned they wouldn't see their quest through without the right motivation. It's going to be interesting to see if the Inverse Fire and Judging Eye confirm each other or not.