A Race of Thought-Dancers

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What Came Before

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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2013, 11:23:57 pm »
Quote from: Francis Buck
Quote from: thirdeye
Not even gong to bother debating the "mad" issue at this point.  It really doesn't matter to me.  I am pulling for Kellhus.  Couldn't care less if he is completely sane or not.  I enjoy watching him dominate and manipulate.  He IS stronger, faster, smarter and is the only being on Earwa capable of taking on the No-God if it comes down to it.  Akka is a whining little bitch and Esmi would still be nothing but a cheap whore if not for Kellhus.  I don't care how crazy her children are she just needs to do what Kellhus tells her to do without question or hesitation.

^..... Does that come across as insensitive and cruel?  Probably.  Don't care.  This is not real life.  It is speculative fiction.  I read it because it is fun and the story is great.  The world building and prose are both exceptional.  The philosophy is interesting, but at the end of the day Bakker is not going to teach me anything I don't already know.  The fact that Bakker uses SA to explore philosophical conepts certainly adds something to the story but the reader is not required to experience the story exactly the way Bakker might intend.

Does that mean that I somehow do not value women or make me less a person because I don't sympathize with the little guy (Akka)?  Of course not.  I love this story but it is just that, a fantasy story.  It is a wild, crazy ride way down the rabbit hole.  It is Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas meets Lord of the RIngs meets Dune.  If Kellhus is "supposed" to be the "bad guy" so be it.  I am pulling for the bad guy.

Team Kellhus!

I lol'd, but I also agree. Kellhus was/is the most interesting part of these books to me (which is not to say that I don't find the rest of it incredibly interesting as well, because I do). But as far as characters go? Kellhus all the way baby, with a sprinkling of Cnaiur and Cleric for good measure.

EDIT: Oh, and Frank-points for the Tool cover as well, thirdeye. That shit's my shit, yo. Supposedly they're aiming for a new album by the end of 2012. My body is NOT ready.

What Came Before

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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2013, 11:24:06 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: thirdeye
Not even gong to bother debating the "mad" issue at this point.  It really doesn't matter to me.  I am pulling for Kellhus.  Couldn't care less if he is completely sane or not.  I enjoy watching him dominate and manipulate.  He IS stronger, faster, smarter and is the only being on Earwa capable of taking on the No-God if it comes down to it.  Akka is a whining little bitch and Esmi would still be nothing but a cheap whore if not for Kellhus.  I don't care how crazy her children are she just needs to do what Kellhus tells her to do without question or hesitation.

^..... Does that come across as insensitive and cruel?  Probably.  Don't care.  This is not real life.  It is speculative fiction.  I read it because it is fun and the story is great.  The world building and prose are both exceptional.  The philosophy is interesting, but at the end of the day Bakker is not going to teach me anything I don't already know.  The fact that Bakker uses SA to explore philosophical conepts certainly adds something to the story but the reader is not required to experience the story exactly the way Bakker might intend.

Does that mean that I somehow do not value women or make me less a person because I don't sympathize with the little guy (Akka)?
Depends. In table top roleplay one can end up playing horendous characters, without necessarily supporting the ideals of that character. However, what's drawn to the surface - I think it becomes vulnerable for no longer being hidden. And the well its drawn from? It's going to be somewhat an internal one, isn't it.

What Came Before

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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2013, 11:24:14 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Callan S.
Depends. In table top roleplay one can end up playing horendous characters, without necessarily supporting the ideals of that character. However, what's drawn to the surface - I think it becomes vulnerable for no longer being hidden. And the well its drawn from? It's going to be somewhat an internal one, isn't it.

Hannibal Lecter as played by Brian Cox.
Joker as played by Heath Ledger.
On a lighter note, Steven Colbert .
"Method" acting.

People can do all kinds of things. Acting, specifically method acting, is one example of people doing much more than immersing themselves in something and coming out the other side whole. Or not. Was Brian Cox a psychopathic murderer, or did he secretly wish he could eat people? I'd venture to say probably not, but technically no one can really prove either way.

There is also proof that if you say something enough times, regardless of whether or not you believe it at first, you will eventually come to think it as truth. If you dont like ice-cream, but you repeatedly said, over and over, "i love ice-cream like no other food", eventually, given enough time and incentive to change your mind, eventually you would. Its one of the ways people get 'brainwashed'.

Its not necessarily an easy change, and the more it rubs against who you are the slower the change will happen. But it can, and will, and does.

Im sure Bakker himself has something written somewhere about this subject, considering its neurological implications.

What Came Before

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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2013, 11:24:21 pm »
Quote from: thirdeye
Quote from: Callan S.
Depends. In table top roleplay one can end up playing horendous characters, without necessarily supporting the ideals of that character. However, what's drawn to the surface - I think it becomes vulnerable for no longer being hidden. And the well its drawn from? It's going to be somewhat an internal one, isn't it.

I think you are overanalyzing it.  Something that might happen a bit too often with SA.  There is no doubt that Bakker has written a brilliant work of Speculative Fiction that unfortunately will probably never get the acclaim it deserves.  For some of you, the philosphical examanations are primarly what makes the work so exceptional as it is intellectually so far beyond most of what you will find in the genre.  However, for some of us, while we may enjoy the Philosophy and readily acknowledge that it adds to the story, the Philosophy in and of itself is not what makes the work so engaging.  Story is everything.  I read Speculative Fiction for entertainment.  As I said, as smart is Scott is, he is not going to teach me anything I do not already know or examine a concept in SA that I probably haven't already thought about in one form or another.  Obviously I can seperate story from reality.  Having a Kellhus type personality run a country would be a disaster.  His inability to express true empathy is incogruent with our human experience.

But Earwa ain't Earth man.  It has magic and monsters and everything in between.  Standard rules need not apply.  As to whether or not Kellhus is the villian or the hero, only time will tell.  Given what Bakker has already done with the story, I imagine the line will fall somewhere in the between in the end.  As the reader however, I couldn't care less.  Kellhus is the boss.  One of my favorite characters in Fantasy/Spec Fiction/Science Fantasy/Whatever.

@Francis - Right on.  Can't wait for the new Tool album.  New Deftones album comes out in a month.  Have you heard the new song, Leathers?  Oh and Cleric is another of my favorite characters as well.  Cnauir always got on my nerves though.

What Came Before

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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2013, 11:24:29 pm »
Quote from: Francis Buck
Quote from: thirdeye
@Francis - Right on.  Can't wait for the new Tool album.  New Deftones album comes out in a month.  Have you heard the new song, Leathers?  Oh and Cleric is another of my favorite characters as well.  Cnauir always got on my nerves though.

I haven't heard the new Deftones! Will definitely check it out though. I kind of flip-flop with them. Some of their stuff I really like, others I'm only so-so on. Ever listened to Opeth? They get compared to Tool a lot. Instrumentally I think they're great, but I don't always enjoy their lyrics. I'm pretty iffy towards screaming/growling -- I have nothing against it in general, but I often feel as though it's implemented poorly. Some times it works for me though, like this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLn8j4c5l4

I enjoyed the dichotomy of softer, melodic vocals contrasted with the harsher yelling. And the guitar's awesome.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2014, 09:36:09 pm »
Thinking about the 'madness' of Kellhus:

Old Moe's judgment that K is mad because he dreams of Mog is pretty weak.  Moe can send dreams, Seswatha can communicate dreams, just being on the receiving end of some dreams should be irrelevant to someone's sanity status.  Kellhus affecting to be convinced of the dreams ought to mean nothing to a Dunyain as well; Moe would KNOW that Kellhus' hides his true intentions.

But Kellhus should expect his father to be unfazed by his madness, so what does it mean to K that his dad is going through this elaborate and seemingly unnecessary pantomine?  Perhaps M and K were acting out a script for someone else's benefit?

That Kellhus never contemplates the possibility of the Mog dreams originating from Moe or some other sorcerer seems significant to me.