Seswatha's Elju(s)

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locke

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« on: July 02, 2013, 08:04:56 pm »
Here's a question, is the process of being an elju possibly similar to the process of being a Mandate Schoolmen? 

Does Kosotor dream the dreams of Nil'giccas?

It just makes me wonder, how could someone become an elju, remember things for another, unless there was something, 'written' so to speak on the soul of the prospective elju.  How can an elju remember unless they remember.

I think we're being thrown by the translation for elju being book.  That word 'book' puts me in mind of the elju becoming a book by doing a lot of reading.  But the nonmen don't seem to have much in the way of writing, and they can't really create an  'oral' tradition to instruct an elju when they can't remember it to tell the elju.

That sort of suggests that an elju has to 'learn' or imprint from contact with the nonman's soul.  Why the soul?  Because RSB is assiduous at never using the words brain or mind, in Earwa all thought originates in and is stored upon the Parchment of the soul.  And the soul it seems is connected to the hearts and eyes of men and nonmen.

So what's the one method we're certain of that imprints memories from one soul onto the soul of another?

The Grasping of Seswatha's Heart.

of course, this begs the question, 'how do you grasp the heart of a living man or nonman?' and in answer to that, perhaps we should look to the circumfix...

locke

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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2013, 08:08:13 pm »
Oh, and we know of one non-man book, the Isuphyris.

What if the original Isuphyris was a person, an elju, not a book in the traditional sense of the word, what if the nonmen sent THEIR version of a book to men, not a version of a book as mankind understands a book.  The copies that were made were dictated by the elju.

which begs the question, whose heart would be the source for the elju of the isuphyris?

Cujara Cinmoi, perhaps?

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2013, 09:08:57 pm »
Thats some interesting speculation there. The only thing is that we don't know if an elju has some kind of metaphysical connection with their nonmen or not. It could simply be that each elju is just responsible for remembering the events that occur only after they become a book.

Perhaps human minds have a great capacity to hold memories than Nonmen. It could be that a human elju or a sranc elju could somehow hold more memories than the nonmen themselves. Though barring that, I don't see how a person could hold all those memories. It would just drive them crazy like the Nonman they serve. I mean, the Mandate are half craven as it is (they remember only suffering, isn't that an interesting coincidence), and thats only with half the memories of 1 man. 10,000 years of nonman dreams would bow even the sturdiest of intellects.

How about an elju being like a flashdrive or an external harddrive. Nonmen offload memories into their elju and call on their elju to remember for them when it is important. Maybe then the difference of an Intact and an Erratic is that the Intact has a varitable army of elju that store all their memories, while the erratics just one or two and therefore losing many many memories.

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Baztek

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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2013, 11:59:48 pm »
I think the connection is less metaphysical and more "what did I have for breakfast yesterday? I gotta watch my cholesterol." Point being the elju serves as the Nonman's ground and re-orients the Nonman's sense of self by telling him what he's done, how he did it, who his friends and enemies are, what he swore never to do again etc. Stuff like that, really practical stuff. It's literally keeping a person around to remind you who you are.

I think if the connection was more between souls then Mekeretririgaighagigiggggg, one of the most powerful Nonmen with a very storied history, wouldn't have elevated a sranc of all things to that position.

Madness

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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2013, 12:50:21 pm »
I think the connection is less metaphysical and more "what did I have for breakfast yesterday? I gotta watch my cholesterol." Point being the elju serves as the Nonman's ground and re-orients the Nonman's sense of self by telling him what he's done, how he did it, who his friends and enemies are, what he swore never to do again etc. Stuff like that, really practical stuff. It's literally keeping a person around to remind you who you are.

+1 for Linguistic Regurgitation.

Though, I do wonder at lockesnow's tact... I think you are onto something with this metaphysical over mundane reasoning for explanation.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2013, 09:05:27 pm »
Quote
I think if the connection was more between souls then Mekeretririgaighagigiggggg, one of the most powerful Nonmen with a very storied history, wouldn't have elevated a sranc of all things to that position.

Yeah. It's a cool theory, but it rather runs aground on the fact that sranc, since they explicitly lack souls, simply could not function as elju if the relationship was a metaphysical 'soul-to-soul' connection.

Interestingly, the character Elju in the Old Testament is a friend of Job, his role in the story being essentially to remind Job that suffering/trauma can serve a purpose in God's plan and isn't necessarily just a punishment for sin.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2013, 11:43:30 pm »
Interestingly, the character Elju in the Old Testament is a friend of Job, his role in the story being essentially to remind Job that suffering/trauma can serve a purpose in God's plan and isn't necessarily just a punishment for sin.

That is seriously awesome.

How about transplanting parts of ones soul? That would make sranc a nice empty vessel to be filled up by nonman memories, i mean soul.

Though I don't really think the Elju process is some kind of soul binding, locke did bring up an interesting point. What is the 'heart' and how are memories stored and tranfered. It is likely some kind of process involved with the soul since, like mentioned above, pretty much everything in Earwa is tied to the soul.


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Duskweaver

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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2013, 07:09:17 am »
a nice empty vessel to be filled up by nonman memories, i mean soul. ... What is the 'heart' and how are memories stored and tranfered.
Ooh. :o

Perhaps there is a second meaning to the Mandate motto "Though you lose your soul, you gain the World"? Perhaps the Grasping actually outright replaces the sorcerer's soul with Seswatha's?

So long as the Mandate (and now the Swayal Sisterhood) exist, Seswatha is remembered. It does seem like there should be some sort of link between the Grasping and the elju...
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2013, 03:54:09 pm »
Then maybe if Seswatha was damned, for one reason or another (how deep a sin is infidelity?), then all the Mandati are therefore damned for sharing his soul. No matter what gnostic user TJE looks on, it sees only the blighted soul of Seswatha (Except, notably, Kellhus).
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locke

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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 04:53:06 pm »
Interestingly, the character Elju in the Old Testament is a friend of Job, his role in the story being essentially to remind Job that suffering/trauma can serve a purpose in God's plan and isn't necessarily just a punishment for sin.

That is seriously awesome.

How about transplanting parts of ones soul? That would make sranc a nice empty vessel to be filled up by nonman memories, i mean soul.

Though I don't really think the Elju process is some kind of soul binding, locke did bring up an interesting point. What is the 'heart' and how are memories stored and tranfered. It is likely some kind of process involved with the soul since, like mentioned above, pretty much everything in Earwa is tied to the soul.
oy, empty vessel is a great way of conceptualizing it.

On the other hand there is this, at least one skin spy has a soul, ergo souls are possible in the creations of the inchoroi.

so the possibility here is, what if the assertion that The Other, The Not Us, the Varelse have no souls is false.  What if the disbelief in their having souls is just the typical human response of dehumanizing their enemies?

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 05:30:29 pm »
Haha the Varelse indeed.

It could be that there are other kinds of 'souls'. Though I don't know how that would affect things. Which would mean, I suppose, that the 'soul' that Earwans talk, the kind that precieves paradox or wields magic or is damned, is not what a soul actually is. Maybe the Ur-god can see the true 'soul' of every being, which assumes that everything that is 'alive' has a soul, manufactured life or otherwise.

Hmm many thoughts are getting muddled in my brain right now and I'm hjaving trouble making a coherent statement :P.

Could there be a different kind of Soul that connects humans and Nonmen and Inchoroi to sranc/woodland creatures?
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Madness

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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 05:44:51 pm »
a nice empty vessel to be filled up by nonman memories, i mean soul. ... What is the 'heart' and how are memories stored and tranfered.

...

Perhaps the Grasping actually outright replaces the sorcerer's soul with Seswatha's?

So long as the Mandate (and now the Swayal Sisterhood) exist, Seswatha is remembered. It does seem like there should be some sort of link between the Grasping and the elju...

Then maybe if Seswatha was damned, for one reason or another (how deep a sin is infidelity?), then all the Mandati are therefore damned for sharing his soul. No matter what gnostic user TJE looks on, it sees only the blighted soul of Seswatha (Except, notably, Kellhus).

Look at what you've started lockesnow.

+1 everyone. I think you're really onto something with these comparisons (and the idea that Mandati are Damned for sharing Seswatha's soul, Wilshire, brilliant!) Way to feed eachother's Nerdaneling :D.
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TheDeliverator

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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2013, 04:17:00 pm »
Did not RSB say that "The Four Revelations Of Cinial’jin," was a glimpse into how the consciousness\memory of Nonmen works?  If so, then perhaps a better understanding the Atrccity Tale may help in understand how an Elju functions.

Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2013, 05:45:23 pm »
Did not RSB say that "The Four Revelations Of Cinial’jin," was a glimpse into how the consciousness\memory of Nonmen works?  If so, then perhaps a better understanding the Atrccity Tale may help in understand how an Elju functions.

Yes he did, though I found Four Revelations to be confusing. It showed how  'erratic' their memories are, ebbing and flowing in time, never really anchored to one point. I don't see much of a connection to their Elju except that perhaps they would serve as an anchor to 'now'.
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Madness

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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2013, 01:09:11 pm »
+1 Wilshire - Perhaps the experience of Nonman consciousness would be different with the presence of their book...
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