The Second Apocalypse

Miscellaneous Chatter => General Misc. => Topic started by: Madness on December 20, 2017, 02:03:31 pm

Title: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Madness on December 20, 2017, 02:03:31 pm
Here be spoilers!

I suppose since I'm making the thread, I'll say what was thinking during the movie:

Mark Hamill/Carrie Fisher are/were an amazing actor/actress. Rey and Luke could easily be ported to Mimara and Achamian in TJE (as someone noted either in Quorum or in the facebook group).

Also, story-telling has gotten remarkably simplistic (or I just read into narrative far too often). Movies are allowed to be subtle. We're doing story-telling and ourselves a disservice catering to the lowest common denominator rather than raising the bar. I did spoil myself before I saw the movie but - while she was awake at least - I pretty much forecast all the major beats of the plot to the SO about a quarter of the way into the (longest ever, apparently, Star Wars) movie.

Miscellaneous aside, a lot of homages by Johnson, specifically BSG and old Samurai/Westerns (I'd have to look it up again but apparently there is a person-antecedent that both Lucas and Johnson were paying tribute to).

Also, a lot of people on the internet saying that *that* lightsaber battle is the best choreographed in the entire series and that the fight in The Phantom Menace is runner up. Sorry, Anakin and Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith is the single best piece of choreographed lightsaber battle in the whole series, thanks very much.

Looking forward (as I know FB is, without even having seen the movie) to what Johnson is going to do with a whole trilogy - Disney made a terrible decision with this new generation trilogy letting each writer/director make their own single movie arcs and not having major plot beats planned across the trilogy.

EDIT: Also, since GJ got such a laugh when I was texting him through the movie: date night at the theater was specifically planned so that the SO could have a nap away from work and the children and I could likewise have a night out. We made out, sat in the back of the theater, she fell asleep, and I drank half a mickey ;). It was great.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 20, 2017, 02:53:11 pm
I very much disliked this movie; I generally have a fatigue towards movies of this sort, but beyond that, this was a bad movie.

a) Pointless plotlines of Poe, Finn and Rose - UTTERLY pointless wastes of time that weren't even executed well.

b) Utter failure of everyone involved. The Rebels constantly fail, and the only reason they don't die off is because the First Order also fails. All our main characters fail.

c) "Fuck you" level red herrings. Remember the mysteries they introduced about Snoke and Rey's parentage in the first movie, and people spent years talking about it? Well, none of that matters, so fuck you audience. Snoke is just some guy who dies and Rey is a nobody. It's okay if this is the direction they wanted to take the series, but if so, these things shouldn't have been introduced as a mystery to begin with; as it stands, it was just poor (or no) planning.

d) Too god damn long. The movie has a climax involving Rey going to Snoke's ship, fights taking place there, and her escaping after Kylo becomes the new Supreme Leader. Then the movie has another climax on the salt planet, because let's drag this out! This has to be the first Star Wars movie where I was just waiting to be over.

Overall, bad, bad movie. I wasn't a huge fan of the Force Awakens but it was a wholesome movie that held its own. This really didn't. There are a lot of other things that didn't sit right with me, but they are nitpicky or subjective. The only thing I liked was Kylo Ren, he was sympathetic throughout the movie and had way more of a story arc than any other character. I guess I also liked Snoke's bodyguards, they were kinda cool, each being distinct, and the fight scene with them was pretty good, I wish it was longer.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: JerakoKayne on December 20, 2017, 05:01:07 pm
It's a story about the passage of generations. The new is moving forward. I think much is political, and definitely nodding toward the Millenial: all the heroes are women, the Bad Guys are white men.

It deals with many things well. The tactics many of the Rebels/Resistance use simply don't make sense; they would have been better off having not done some of the things they did.

The neutrality, and "balance" of the Force are handled better than in the now non-canonical EU.

Rey doesn't need to be a Skywalker to be a hero; in the new generation they can be heroes on their own merit, not just on their bloodline.


All this said, I don't understand why Luke Skywalker dies.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 20, 2017, 11:02:56 pm
Pretty good for a Star Wars movie. Decent humour, lots of contrived bullshit as usual but they made the characters more interesting than the idealized black white Mary Sues and evil villains that Star Wars fans want them to be.
Kylo Ren was fantastic. I liked the revelation of Rey's parents. They were nobody's who dumped her, the Force just chose her arbitrarily.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Knee that Bends on December 27, 2017, 11:11:19 am
I enjoyed the movie, it did seem there was a lot of F*** you JJ Abrams moments though. Right away, Rian Johnson destroys the main rebel base of TFA, then destroys the helmet that was the forefront of marketing for Kylo, then said F*** off to Rey being anyone special, F*** Snoke, etc. Not a bad thing, just kinda funny. I hope JJ does the same in return with episode 9. Also, I agree 100% with madness, ROTS Obi vs Ani puts the Phantom Menace duel to shame. I enjoyed the back-to-back aspect of the Rey/Kylo scene though. Very interesting combat compared to the flourish-iness of the prequel fighting. It seems less based on the five forms of saber combat, and more mixed. Loved when Rey dropped and caught her saber, that was pretty dope. I do have to say that like every Star Wars, it continued to play by the rules, no huge twists (in my opinion). And I personally think Leia should've been on board the kamikaze ship instead. I know that they couldn't really fix that after Carrie's death, but that's a shame because it would've been a really good fitting ending for her. Although, then she wouldn't be there to see Luke projection and the dice, which was a tender moment. Also, why did Holdo not just tell Poe Dameron the plan, I feel like that would've made the whole situation way easier. And couldn't the First order just flank the rebels with Tie's? Or send back up to intercept them? Or send their own ships to surround them? Instead of just waiting for them to run out of fuel....  ???
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: themerchant on December 27, 2017, 01:50:10 pm
I'm so out of touch with Star wars I don't even know what's happening.

I haven't seen the other light saber battles, but i did see the phantom menace and i really liked that fight at the end with Maul. Qui gon and Obi.

I haven't watched a Star-Trek film since Insurrection either.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Wilshire on December 27, 2017, 02:50:08 pm
Never been a huge star wars guy.
I was hoping for some plot and was disappointed. My fault, really, expecting that from an action movie.
I think I'll stop watching star wars the same way I've stopped watching super hero movies.

The movie itself was middling. Too long, bad pacing, too many fights and explosions that lead to scenes that should have been emotional just falling flat.
The the two jedi and two sith did a good job. Skywalker et al actually had some good moments discussion something that could have been deep, but its left extremely surface level and then buried under several battles too many that its difficult to really say what it was they were driving at.
As others above have mentioned, there's definitely some social commentary in there that I find more interesting than the movie.

I would think, since only the Light side has found a way to survive death, that every generation the sum total knowledge of the light side and the force would increase for the Jedi - even if there are fewer of them. Conversely, since every sith master ascends by murdering the previous one, there would be a hording of knowledge that would simply not get passed down. With this dichotomy, I'd honestly expect the dark side (which might be easier to get stronger, faster) to be so diminished at this point for lack of proper knowledge transfer, and the jedi to be so strong for their infinite life and teaching, for there to be no contest between them. The sith should be at a remarkable disadvantage.
I'm glad Rey wasn't a Skywalker. I don't think it makes sense in-universe for force powers to be heritable.
Some great moments throughout, but largely not a good movie.

Also, why did Holdo not just tell Poe Dameron the plan, I feel like that would've made the whole situation way easier. And couldn't the First order just flank the rebels with Tie's? Or send back up to intercept them? Or send their own ships to surround them? Instead of just waiting for them to run out of fuel....  ???
Badly written plot.
Felt the same thing - no reason for them to keep their plan it a secret. Nor for Poe to not simply tell people wtf she was planning.

I was hoping the 'twist' would be that  Poe was working for Snook in some capacity and betraying them all.

Its embarrassing that the solution to "wow they are fast" was "lets wait several days for them to run out of fuel" instead of "well, we know where they're going - straight - lets do a light speed jump into their path, aboutface, and attack. Oh, and lets scan known-space for any planets just in case"...Yeah, they could have done literally anything else.

Again, if Poe was an inside man, it makes more sense that they didn't want to kill her ... Kind of, ok only just barely, but at least it provides some excuse.

As for the kamikaze - stupid. Again, bad plot. If a ship of a certain size can light-speed-jump through an armada filled with literally dozens of ships bigger than itself, not to mention a ship hundreds of times larger, and destroy the whole thing ... why haven't they been doing that? Math checks out - make light speed ship, auto-pilot, blow up entire armada. Could have an xwing do it instead of the mothership, but whatever.

The series in general seems famous for deus ex machina. Almost nothing happens that isn't explicitly a contrived plot device. I, for one, am sick of utility droids hacking into enemy military tech and/or repairing literally anything with a blowtorch.

Luckily the best parts of the movie were the parts revolving around the force and the sith/jedi, which, tbh, is the only reason I showed up, so at least there's that. The fake-fight was great.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Redeagl on December 27, 2017, 05:09:27 pm
Never been a huge star wars guy.
I was hoping for some plot and was disappointed. My fault, really, expecting that from an action movie.
I think I'll stop watching star wars the same way I've stopped watching super hero movies.

The movie itself was middling. Too long, bad pacing, too many fights and explosions that lead to scenes that should have been emotional just falling flat.
The the two jedi and two sith did a good job. Skywalker et al actually had some good moments discussion something that could have been deep, but its left extremely surface level and then buried under several battles too many that its difficult to really say what it was they were driving at.
As others above have mentioned, there's definitely some social commentary in there that I find more interesting than the movie.

I would think, since only the Light side has found a way to survive death, that every generation the sum total knowledge of the light side and the force would increase for the Jedi - even if there are fewer of them. Conversely, since every sith master ascends by murdering the previous one, there would be a hording of knowledge that would simply not get passed down. With this dichotomy, I'd honestly expect the dark side (which might be easier to get stronger, faster) to be so diminished at this point for lack of proper knowledge transfer, and the jedi to be so strong for their infinite life and teaching, for there to be no contest between them. The sith should be at a remarkable disadvantage.
I'm glad Rey wasn't a Skywalker. I don't think it makes sense in-universe for force powers to be heritable.
Some great moments throughout, but largely not a good movie.

Also, why did Holdo not just tell Poe Dameron the plan, I feel like that would've made the whole situation way easier. And couldn't the First order just flank the rebels with Tie's? Or send back up to intercept them? Or send their own ships to surround them? Instead of just waiting for them to run out of fuel....  ???
Badly written plot.
Felt the same thing - no reason for them to keep their plan it a secret. Nor for Poe to not simply tell people wtf she was planning.

I was hoping the 'twist' would be that  Poe was working for Snook in some capacity and betraying them all.

Its embarrassing that the solution to "wow they are fast" was "lets wait several days for them to run out of fuel" instead of "well, we know where they're going - straight - lets do a light speed jump into their path, aboutface, and attack. Oh, and lets scan known-space for any planets just in case"...Yeah, they could have done literally anything else.

Again, if Poe was an inside man, it makes more sense that they didn't want to kill her ... Kind of, ok only just barely, but at least it provides some excuse.

As for the kamikaze - stupid. Again, bad plot. If a ship of a certain size can light-speed-jump through an armada filled with literally dozens of ships bigger than itself, not to mention a ship hundreds of times larger, and destroy the whole thing ... why haven't they been doing that? Math checks out - make light speed ship, auto-pilot, blow up entire armada. Could have an xwing do it instead of the mothership, but whatever.

The series in general seems famous for deus ex machina. Almost nothing happens that isn't explicitly a contrived plot device. I, for one, am sick of utility droids hacking into enemy military tech and/or repairing literally anything with a blowtorch.

Luckily the best parts of the movie were the parts revolving around the force and the sith/jedi, which, tbh, is the only reason I showed up, so at least there's that. The fake-fight was great.
To be fair, it's supposed to be a children/young adult movie. So a deep plot is not something you should expect ;) . I personally don't like SW too, btw.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Wilshire on December 27, 2017, 05:21:34 pm
To be fair, it's supposed to be a children/young adult movie. So a deep plot is not something you should expect ;) . I personally don't like SW too, btw.
Yeah I know. First thing I said was that it was my fault lol.
If I went in expecting brightly colored garbage I probably would have been pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 27, 2017, 07:04:12 pm
To be fair, it's supposed to be a children/young adult movie. So a deep plot is not something you should expect ;) . I personally don't like SW too, btw.
Yeah I know. First thing I said was that it was my fault lol.
If I went in expecting brightly colored garbage I probably would have been pleasantly surprised.
Wait, are you saying you don't expect brightly colored garbage when watching ANY Star Wars movie?
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Wilshire on December 27, 2017, 07:57:22 pm
To be fair, it's supposed to be a children/young adult movie. So a deep plot is not something you should expect ;) . I personally don't like SW too, btw.
Yeah I know. First thing I said was that it was my fault lol.
If I went in expecting brightly colored garbage I probably would have been pleasantly surprised.
Wait, are you saying you don't expect brightly colored garbage when watching ANY Star Wars movie?
IS IT SO WRONG TO HOPE!
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Redeagl on December 27, 2017, 10:15:59 pm
To be fair, it's supposed to be a children/young adult movie. So a deep plot is not something you should expect ;) . I personally don't like SW too, btw.
Yeah I know. First thing I said was that it was my fault lol.
If I went in expecting brightly colored garbage I probably would have been pleasantly surprised.
Wait, are you saying you don't expect brightly colored garbage when watching ANY Star Wars movie?
IS IT SO WRONG TO HOPE!
Huh?  Aren't you the guy who was saying that TUC may not be ever released, back at April when it was all but out?  :P
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Wilshire on December 28, 2017, 02:28:43 pm
 ;)

:'(
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Francis Buck on January 01, 2018, 01:28:17 am
Honestly, the more I think about it the more disappointed I become.

I've loved Star Wars since childhood, was the perfect age when the prequels came out (was probably 8 or 9 when The Phantom Menace hit) in that I was able to enjoy them just for being SW movies and was not old enough to detect the flaws -- though I started feeling it by the time Revenge of the Sith came out. Regardless, this series looms larger in my life/memory than perhaps any other popular media, in terms of nostalgia and so forth. And there are certain things even from the prequels (Duel of the Fates) that to this day can give me goosebumps like nothing else. So yeah, I'm a pretty big fan, if perhaps not quite a "fanboy" or whatever.

When news that a new trilogy with the old cast was being made, it was borderline tear-inducing. As was the first teaser for TFA. For whatever reason, I'd just assumed that it would never happen and that I'd never see Luke Skywalker played by Mark Hamil on the big screen again. When TFA I came out I went in with measured hype, having been through enough of such experiences to be keep my expectations in check. Somewhat to my surprise, TFA exceeded my expectations -- it wasn't a perfect movie by any means, and it definitely stuck a bit too close to the ANH formula, but it otherwise succeeded handsomely in what is was trying to achieve. It actually FELT like a Star Wars movie, I liked all the new cast members, and Kylo Ren in particular was already the most nuanced villain in a Star Wars movie thus far. I went out of the theater genuinely satsifed and very excited to see where things would go from here. That was only amplifie when I learned that Rian Johnson, literally one of my favorite directors, was announced to do TLJ. Beforehand, were you to ask me who I'd like to direct it, I'd probably have said RJ. It was a dream come true, so I thought...

In contrast to how I felt walking out of TFA, or I walked out of TLJ wondering what exactly I'd just seen. I knew that I wasn't feeling it, but it was a long movie with a lot of scenes and I was still (and still am) absorbing it. But later that night as I kept thinking about it, I realized that I actually don't really even care that much about the next movie. I'll certainly see it, and I'd love to be surprised by how it turns out, but TLJ in my opinion did more damage to the series than any of the prequels (though I would not say that this was a worse movie than them).

There are many issues I have with the film, almost all of them regaring character development and the incoherence of the plot, as well some of the "expansions" to the lore and worldbuilding, but honestly it all comes down to Luke and Rey. I'm utterly baffled at the decisions made to the depiction of Luke -- I mean, I think I get what the premise was for the character at his stage, but the execution of it was so sloppy and off-putting that it ruins what potential was there, which is actually the case for almost everything about the movie. I think the film is brimming with great ideas, yet almost none of them hit the mark. The only characters I felt were actually well done with a coherent arc and journery are Poe, Leia, and to some extent Kylo, who remains IMO the most compelling new element of the entire trilogy. Furthermore, there's such a palpable sense of dissonance between where TFA left off, and where this movie decided to go, that it gives the impression that there is not, in fact, any sort of game plan for the series at all (which to my knowledge is not actually the case).

My biggest issue aside from Luke's depiction and characterization is that this film BARELY progressed the characters past where they were in TFA. Finn for example, who was probably the second most compelling character in TFA for me, had almost no meaningful development whatsoever. It's almost like you could learn everything you need to know from the opening text crawl of the next movie without feeling lost at all.

I do agree with what many have said, which is that it seems like the movie was preoccupied with going in unexpected directions for the series (a sentinment I'm 100% on board with, by the way) that it forgot to make sure those directions led to satisfying conclusions, nor even produce a competent film in general. It feels like a collection of wasted oppurtunities and good ideas that are not properly executed.

I'm actually more excited for whatever Rian Johson's other SW trilogy is going to be (assuming he still gets the job) than I am for the next film. I think that if the trilogy is fully separated from the main series (perferably by being something akin to KotoR, set in the ancient history of the SW universe), then they could be great. I already know RJ is an excellent director and writer, and TLJ is the only movie of his I don't love, so I still have hopes for getting good stories in the SW universe, even if I'm mildly heartbroken about this installment.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: themerchant on January 01, 2018, 06:13:28 pm
"I've loved Star Wars since childhood, was the perfect age when the prequels came out (was probably 8 or 9 when "

This sentence just made me feel really old , literally stopped me in my tracks when reading your post. I think it was cause i had anticipated you were going to say the original ones and i was getting ready to agree and be like me too!
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Bolivar on January 05, 2018, 10:59:05 pm
There are a lot of things I really liked about the movie but a lot of things about it I really hated, which kinda compounded with my general dislike for what Disney has done to the film franchise.

I liked TFA when it first came out but it really lost favor for me on rewatches, so I liked how TFA kinda threw a lot of it out. As Knee that Bends wrote, Snoke mocking Ren's helmet felt like a big middle finger to the slavish imitation of TFA and its uninspiring new contributions. Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder and Rey's parents being nobody were both such bold subversions of peoples expectations that they had been building up for years. I liked the length of the movie, the action, and the drama, it just felt like the really big operatic science fantasy film that I've been waiting for from this new trilogy.

That said, the villains are trash. The forced campy humor is irredeemably bad. Holdo standing around Resistance soldiers with her pink hair and flowing dress is the most out of place character in the entirety of the series, and that's saying a lot for a space drama with aliens.  I don't think clueless creepy Uncle Luke really works or does justice to what this character means to American culture. I feel so bad for Mark Hamill because he's probably been looking forward to reprising this role for the majority of his life and in interviews he said that this is basically an alternate universe version of Luke that does not capture his understanding of the character at all. It's just incredibly sad to me.

Ultimately, my larger problems are with the way this series was positioned at large. Instead of showing the rebuilding of the Republic, they just did a rehash that would pander to the nostalgia of fans of the original trilogy. It's just more Empire vs. Rebels, more X-Wings and Tie Fighters, another Darth Vader. Starting with Empire, these were essentially the biggest independent films but now their creative purpose has been discarded to instead play it safe and reestablish the good will of the brand, so the corporation that now owns it can continue making money off of it.

Like Athorn "FB" Gallizur, I was the perfect age for the prequels when they first came out but as I grew older I saw the flaws and more or less wrote them off like everybody else. This new sequel trilogy really made me appreciate what George was trying to do with them, to tell a new story, with new characters, planets, and starships, with different themes and plot lines in a largely different setting. I also think they have much better action, too!

(https://j.gifs.com/E96vyK.gif)
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Knee that Bends on January 08, 2018, 08:20:50 pm
Very well put, Bolivar. I was always a little let down how little they strayed from the OT in TFA. Not just how there was a lot of allusions (I.e. sandy planet, death star, etc.) but more that they didn't seem to surprise me at all. The prequel trilogy was George rehashing a lot of the same motifs, but with a whole new story, and with new assets. I thought TLJ was a little better in that aspect than TFA. Rian Johnson genuinely wanted to surprise us. There was definitely more plot twists, and more new ships, characters, creatures, weapons, etc. than TFA, which is surprising, seeing how TFA was the first in a new series. I loved all the stuff they added. Especially the redguards' weird sabers, how they didn't feel gimmicky *cough* *cough* Rebels TV show *cough*  and the new big-ass-bunker-buster-cannon-of-death-and-destruction that almost rekt our favorite stormtrooper. It all seemed new and exciting, but it still felt Star Wars. You could say the same about the plot. Also, I thought they should've finished up with the old characters' storylines before throwing in new ones we didn't care about yet. For example, I would've been more attached to Mrs. Purple rebel if she was introduced in this movie as a background character, then brought to life in the next movie after Leia's death, taking her place as captain. This idea does NOT apply to Luke. I wanted more from Luke for sure. If they had done a scene like the Reylo back-to-back scene but with Rey and Luke? Bad FUCKING ass. We haven't seen two jedi fight side-by-side other than the prequels. It's so cool watching master and apprentice fight against a common foe. It really makes their relationship more meaningful. Especially in the case of Ani/Obi where you know they're going to have to fight each other eventually. That made Mustafar much more meaningful imo.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Bolivar on January 09, 2018, 03:36:10 am
Yeah, I really wish we got one last lightsaber fight from Luke.

This is the same way I felt about TAG, enjoyed it when I left the theater but the more I think about it...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Francis Buck on January 10, 2018, 04:52:26 am
I actually thought I mentioned that in my post but apparently I forgot -- the lack of a proper Luke lightsaber battle is fucking criminal. Instead we get this weird cocktease with a damn slow-mo Matrix-dodge. I have nothing against slow-mo in movies whatsoever, but it's not something I ever wanted in Star Wars. Call me a purist, but I like that the series has (had) little idiosyncracies that became "how Star Wars movies are". Even the flashback ruffled my feathers, though I think I could have dealt with that if served more than feeling like a shoe-horned twist.

And here's the thing -- I actually would have been FINE with the lack of a Luke vs Someone lightsaber battle if they had actually approached Luke's character in a different/better way. For example I'm one of the people who (retrospectively) dislikes that Yoda ever used a lightsaber, as it seemed beneath his character. But given the plot we did actually get, a good Luke vs Kylo fight (even if it ended with Luke doing the Obi-Wan-Kenobi "strike me down" trick) would've been...well, something.

@Wilshire
Your point about only light side users being capable of Force ghosting is interesting and along with the Sith-culture stuff is really the kind of shit I was hoping to see more of -- specifically, the lack any actual "Sith training" is an insane missed oppturtunity IMO, and could've been a cool way to flesh out the Sith and/or Dark side in general, while also serving as a sort of inverted version of Luke and Yoda in TESB.

I was also one of the people who (before the rumor was dispelled) would've actually not minded a Snoke-as-Plagueis twist. Despite the prequels being generally very poor movies, I do feel like there should be a little more continuity between trilogies. Beyond that, the notion of a reincarnating/immortal Force user whose been manipulating the galactic society for decades Dunyain-style has some potential in my mind (assuming it had, like, good writing and not another cackling, cartoonishly evil Big Bad), and it could've even helped handwave some of the series extant weird plot holes and/or lazy worldbuilding such as the similarity of the First Order to the Empire, or even why Kylo would decide to be trained by such an individual, given his Vader fanboyism.

Speaking of villains, the portrayal of Hux was borderline character assassination. I mean he wasn't anything amazing in TFA per se, but again, like Finn (or Rey, or Snoke) the character had plenty of potential for growth. Instead he became a receptacle for corny humor (because there wasn't enough of that already).
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Madness on January 10, 2018, 10:49:57 pm
Random interjection on reading FB's latest but, despite even the random love for Poe, the misuse so far of Oscar Isaac and, but especially, Domhnall Gleeson, is fucking criminal.

Edit: Even John Boyega, ffs.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Bolivar on January 12, 2018, 07:43:38 pm
Agree on all three of those. Hux is such a horrible waste of a character, it would have been like relegating Grand Moff Tarkin to comedy relief. Unforgivable.

I think Boyega is the best out of the new main cast but they had him going off to a casino town to free the animals for most of his time in the film.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: H on January 15, 2018, 12:35:43 pm
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Wilshire on January 15, 2018, 01:06:02 pm
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
Nostalgia wore off and you've realized its a children's story - moreso now that Disney owns it. So, yeah, I'd say you probably are :/
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: H on January 15, 2018, 06:29:46 pm
Nostalgia wore off and you've realized its a children's story - moreso now that Disney owns it. So, yeah, I'd say you probably are :/

I am not sure if nostalgia is worn off, but rather I no long have an appetite for fantastical moral clarity.  It's just not interesting.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: TLEILAXU on January 15, 2018, 07:01:40 pm
Nostalgia wore off and you've realized its a children's story - moreso now that Disney owns it. So, yeah, I'd say you probably are :/

I am not sure if nostalgia is worn off, but rather I no long have an appetite for fantastical moral clarity.  It's just not interesting.
Isn't that ironically what makes TLJ a bit more interesting than its predecessors though? I personally felt the movie was a bit more grey, e.g. when Kylo says he didn't hate his dad.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: H on January 15, 2018, 07:06:18 pm
Isn't that ironically what makes TLJ a bit more interesting than its predecessors though? I personally felt the movie was a bit more grey, e.g. when Kylo says he didn't hate his dad.

I guess, but Kylo Ren still only seems to give the appearance of depth, rather than actually having it.  Or so it seems to me.  But I would rank any of the newer movies over the old-old ones.  Not even a bit.

What make TFA more appealing than TLJ was honestly pacing though.  There was no real reason for that to be 2.5 hours.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Wilshire on January 15, 2018, 08:15:10 pm
but rather I no long have an appetite for fantastical moral clarity.  It's just not interesting.
Yup. Seems to cheapen the experience.

Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: H on January 15, 2018, 08:58:37 pm
but rather I no long have an appetite for fantastical moral clarity.  It's just not interesting.
Yup. Seems to cheapen the experience.

Not to mention, there is no depth to any of the characters, moral clarity or not.  Does anyone find any of the characters actually interesting?
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Bolivar on January 17, 2018, 06:46:38 pm
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
Try to find out. When I go back to watch the OT, I'm finding new reasons to appreciate them more and more. I know this makes me psychotic but I also feel like the prequels have aged better in light of how derivative the new films have been.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Wilshire on January 17, 2018, 07:09:36 pm
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
Try to find out. When I go back to watch the OT, I'm finding new reasons to appreciate them more and more. I know this makes me psychotic but I also feel like the prequels have aged better in light of how derivative the new films have been.
Lucas had a brilliant idea and a clear vision for the original trilogy. He basically pioneered a whole industry and invented the means to ensure his vision was executed with extreme precision.

The next three were middling compared to what he did at the start, but at least followed in the big footsteps left before by the original.

Disney has done away with all that and turned it into a cookie cutter action flick - distracting the audience with flashy lights and bringing them in with nothing but the Star Wars logo.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: H on January 18, 2018, 11:57:26 am
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
Try to find out. When I go back to watch the OT, I'm finding new reasons to appreciate them more and more. I know this makes me psychotic but I also feel like the prequels have aged better in light of how derivative the new films have been.

I have watched the originals with the kids and I still feel like the originals had a much tighter storyline and the dialogue was simply better.  The prequels failed to deliver that level and the newer ones even less so.  I think that is the real issue I have with them.

Consider, Lord of the Rings doesn't have deep moral complexity, or a complex "realistic" story.  What it has is depth and style.  The original series had that, or the appearance of such.  The latter ones fail to really deliver anything on that level, in my opinion.  They try, but when you hit a home run on the first swing, you set the bar pretty high.
Title: Re: [!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi
Post by: Madness on January 19, 2018, 05:11:06 pm
Something else on Wilshire and H's posts, look at the (former) EU. The original trilogy engendered all those imaginings specifically because every little thing wasn't spelled out in the OT, which - as per Bakker - is one of the mistakes story-tellers make, eventually cheapening their stories.

I have watched the originals with the kids and I still feel like the originals had a much tighter storyline and the dialogue was simply better.

I did this semi-recently too for ANH and ESB with the younger three. Despite the fact that they didn't even pay attention to a good portion of the middle of each and were running around playing while the SO and I laid in the table/blanket fort we made for them, even the four and (now) six year old were quoting portions of the movies to me over the next couple weeks.