I totally agree with you Trisk, if we see the NG as a non-static entity with its own story-arc it would make perfect sense that other (key) characters could have fought both for and against him.
Yeah, Trisk... It's pretty clear that people at Westeros don't actually read posts. It's such a mess of a thread after having this whole forum to play in.
Yeah, Trisk... It's pretty clear that people at Westeros don't actually read posts. It's such a mess of a thread after having this whole forum to play in.
We just don't know enough. Did the No-God rise once before in the Cuno-Inchoroi wars? Does Mekeritrig mean the Inchoroi but the No-God or Black Heavens makes a better placeholder to refer to as (for reasons we can't yet understand)? Is he referring to something like freeing Seswatha from the Wall of the Dead at Dagliash, which happened during the apocalypse. Hell, do we even have it on any authority, at all, that Mekeritrig is still a part of the Consult contemporarily?
Are you saying that people are supposed to read posts before they reply to them? ;) I wouldn't call it a mess though because those threads don't have a single topic unlike here, so everyone pretty much posts whatever they have to say. There is no need to stay on topic because there isn't one.
Yeah, it's possible that he's not even with the consult now. But if I may add one more question to your list, is it "Mekeritrig" or "Mekertrig"? or is Mekertrig the twin brother of Mekeritrig?
My book has both of those version.
Also, if this is an obvious mistake like some people claim over there... Wouldn't he just say so if someone asked him about it? I mean many authors admit they've given contradictory info between books, even when the series is not yet finished.
Perhaps this has been broached (I'd actually be surprised if it has not) but I'm new user and not very keen on reading 17pages of stuff, much predating several books.
Several times in the series it is theorized that mortal souls are but bits of the God trying to understand it's self.
The NG obviously has a deific level of power, what with the stillbirths across the known world upon it's arrival to mundis. Perhaps not that it can direct very well but it sure makes a big distortion in reality to have such an effect. Also the constant whirlwind about it, both despite being in a box covered in chorea.
Second it repeatedly asks "WHAT DO YOU SEE?"
So my thought is that the NG is a soul, somehow perverted and made (semi)aware of its godhood. The sarcophagus being the containment for the soul and/or life support for the doubtless wracked and mutilated body of whomever it was crafted from.
These posts, though they may refer to old theories, were generated within the past two years. The quoted portion is from the old rendition of this forum. All of these posts occurred after WLW.
I'm not sure that the No-God directs that "power" or if it's deific (thaumaturgical as we've been calling it round these parts) as you've highlighted.
There was a great theory on the old Three-Seas that the No-God was the trapped World-Soul (that pool of souls from which all souls are drawn and all souls return) but it had its detractors like all other theories.
Certainly possible, Inraus Ghost.
I've stated this theory numerous times ...
Regardleas, I think it's pretty clear that every ensouled being (that includes ciphrang and the gods) are indeed fragmenrs of the World Soul, a.k.a God, the Absolute, Sum of all Thought, etc. We hear this from multiple sources and there's quite a bit of evidence to suppprt it.
Regardleas, I think it's pretty clear that every ensouled being (that includes ciphrang and the gods) are indeed fragmenrs of the World Soul, a.k.a God, the Absolute, Sum of all Thought, etc. We hear this from multiple sources and there's quite a bit of evidence to suppprt it.
This kind of fits nicely into some of my thoughts, FB. Have you put to theory how Ciphrang and "gods" become whatever it is they are now vs how/why humans are what they are?
Herbert would say a soul attracts the absolutely corruptible.
Regardleas, I think it's pretty clear that every ensouled being (that includes ciphrang and the gods) are indeed fragmenrs of the World Soul, a.k.a God, the Absolute, Sum of all Thought, etc. We hear this from multiple sources and there's quite a bit of evidence to suppprt it.
This kind of fits nicely into some of my thoughts, FB. Have you put to theory how Ciphrang and "gods" become whatever it is they are now vs how/why humans are what they are?
A Soul corrupts, absolute Soul corrupts absolutely?
Meaning that the more souls one has, the more they are corrupted. The God was so corrupt that he destroyed himself....
Regardleas, I think it's pretty clear that every ensouled being (that includes ciphrang and the gods) are indeed fragmenrs of the World Soul, a.k.a God, the Absolute, Sum of all Thought, etc. We hear this from multiple sources and there's quite a bit of evidence to suppprt it.
This kind of fits nicely into some of my thoughts, FB. Have you put to theory how Ciphrang and "gods" become whatever it is they are now vs how/why humans are what they are?
And then they could build their own God :P.
But why, then, would they need to shut out the world from the outside, if their final goal was to simply change the outside? Its a good idea but it doesn't quite fit imo.
I think the Gods are reflections of the sum of early human thought, which is why they're so anthropomorphic
I think the Gods are reflections of the sum of early human thought, which is why they're so anthropomorphic
I like this but I'm just not sure about the mechanisms involved. And I would also amend this to the sum of (early?) Nonmen thought - unless, of course, only humans can affect the Outside via the World, etc.
But yes, you're correct, at least I don't believe that humans are "special", only Earwa is. Humans only become special by happening to be the dominant species on Earwa, and the gods are the way they are because of humans (or Nonmen, whatever).
Eh? It's one and the same. They want to shut the Outside so they make their own Outside via the No-God, which is one of oblivion.Hence Wutteat speaking of the 'Black Heaven' in a way that implies it's another name for the No-God. The No-God is Oblivion. An Outside with no Agencies in it to judge (impose meaning upon) your soul.
So the Consult created a 'pocket-universe,' which is apparently fictive fashion right now...
Woah, Madness, you can't promise that. Careful with throwing around advice like that! Look what happened to Moengus.QuoteI wish I had the emotional depth to bear the water.You do, dragharrow... you have only to pluck thine gaze from this world and you shall feel the water swell within you ;).
1123 - Shaeönanra, Grandvizier of the Mangaecca, claims to have rediscovered a means of saving the souls of those damned by sorcery. Mangaecca was promptly outlawed for impiety. Mangaecca abandon Sauglish and flee to Golgotterath.
So it took 1000 years, ish to summon the NG the first time.
And 2000 years have passed since.
Why would it take twice the time?
Anyway, the No God begging to know what people see makes me think his vision is too good. Plus it's a cool parallel to the blind gods.
Anyway, the No God begging to know what people see makes me think his vision is too good. Plus it's a cool parallel to the blind gods.
You say that the No God is either blind or "his vision is too good"... But actually I think it's neither.
What do you see ?
What am I ?
The No God can't see himself. Only from others can he know what he is. This reminds me of the Kellus-Akka dialog where Kellus asks Akka what he sees from a mirror... Not himself. Only his eyes. Only through others can he see himself. I think the No God questions are the same, he's trying to define himself through others.
That fits with his name too. Until he gets the answer to his questions he still remains the no god, a god of nothing or an incomplete god.
Men, Kellhus had once told her, were like coins: they had two sides. Where one side of them saw, the other side of them was seen, and though all men were both at once, men could only truly know the side of themselves that saw and the side of others that was seen—they could only truly know the inner half of themselves and the outer half of others.
At first Esmenet thought this foolish. Was not the inner half the whole, what was only imperfectly apprehended by others? But Kellhus bid her to think of everything she’d witnessed in others. How many unwitting mistakes? How many flaws of character? Conceits couched in passing remarks. Fears posed as judgements …
The shortcomings of men—their limits—were written in the eyes of those who watched them. And this was why everyone seemed so desperate to secure the good opinion of others—why everyone played the mummer. They knew without knowing that what they saw of themselves was only half of who they were. And they were desperate to be whole.
The measure of wisdom, Kellhus had said, was found in the distance between these two selves.
Only afterward had she thought of Kellhus in these terms. With a kind of surpriseless shock, she realized that not once—not once!—had she glimpsed shortcomings in his words or actions. And this, she understood, was why he seemed limitless, like the ground, which extended from the small circle about her feet to the great circle about the sky. He had become her horizon.
For Kellhus, there was no distance between seeing and being seen. He alone was whole. And what was more, he somehow stood from without and saw from within. He made whole …
Could Kellhus's ultimate goal to be to help the No-God? What would it mean for the No-God to reconcile its two selves?
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, oneeyed.
Somewhere buried in this thread Curethan and I talk about the No-God as being perceptively blind - we were trying to figure out how it might perceive when it is "hooked up" to the Weapon Races. Is it a Tekne approximation to what we think happens with the Gods and their followers, whom seem to provide nodes of perception and agency for the Gods in the world?
Kellhus, standing at the center of the Order and rallying the troops who are all crying out in rapture, exquisitely resembles the No-God surrounded by legions of screaming sranc.
This bit key to what the No-God is?
"Gods are epochal beings, not quite alive. Since the Now eludes them, they are forever divided. Sometimes nothing blinds souls more profoundly than the apprehension of the Whole. Men need recall this when they pray"
-Ajencis (beginning of chapter 13 WLW)
Kind of an ironic "be careful what you wish for". They seek to be self moving, perfect and autonomous beings through absolute domination of and understanding of everything. If one reaches that goal, they lose all ability to see/understand any meaning at all.that's just the inchoroi manner of praying.
But what was the first instance of Mog? How could the Inchoroi's tekne, a mountain of dead bodies, and the Mengecca make the No-God? (that is not the start of a bad joke :P). Those pieces don't fit into the puzzle you put together for Kellhus.
I feel like the Inchoroi themselves could collect 144k living bodies. This doesn't seem like a likely solution.
Yeah, but the fact of Mog's existence wasn't a permanent solution, was it. "The souls that encounters him passes no further".
I think the fact that the war continued after Mog rose demonstrates that there was more work to be done, otherwise they could have just waited for humans to die out naturally.
Also, there is the issue of the Scylvendi, the fact that sorcery still worked whilst Mog was about and the delivery of the Celmoman prophecy even as Mog 'tasted' the fallen king's soul.
Sticking with the idea that Mog was an improvement on the 144k thing and that critical mass was about to be achieved at Mengedda. ;)
Yeah, but the fact of Mog's existence wasn't a permanent solution, was it. "The souls that encounters him passes no further".
I think the fact that the war continued after Mog rose demonstrates that there was more work to be done, otherwise they could have just waited for humans to die out naturally.
Also, there is the issue of the Scylvendi, the fact that sorcery still worked whilst Mog was about and the delivery of the Celmoman prophecy even as Mog 'tasted' the fallen king's soul.
Sticking with the idea that Mog was an improvement on the 144k thing and that critical mass was about to be achieved at Mengedda. ;)
INTRIGUING! Do you think that all those that died during the First Apocalypse were lost in some irrevocable way? In other words, pre- and post-Mog, souls went straight to the Outside, but during the 11 years of Whirlwind, the souls departed from flesh met Mog and never traveled on?
This is even more important if those hints about reincarnation end up being true--the No-God removes souls from their loops, doing something terrible to the world.
Yeah, but the fact of Mog's existence wasn't a permanent solution, was it. "The souls that encounters him passes no further".
I think the fact that the war continued after Mog rose demonstrates that there was more work to be done, otherwise they could have just waited for humans to die out naturally.
Also, there is the issue of the Scylvendi, the fact that sorcery still worked whilst Mog was about and the delivery of the Celmoman prophecy even as Mog 'tasted' the fallen king's soul.
Sticking with the idea that Mog was an improvement on the 144k thing and that critical mass was about to be achieved at Mengedda. ;)
INTRIGUING! Do you think that all those that died during the First Apocalypse were lost in some irrevocable way? In other words, pre- and post-Mog, souls went straight to the Outside, but during the 11 years of Whirlwind, the souls departed from flesh met Mog and never traveled on?
This is even more important if those hints about reincarnation end up being true--the No-God removes souls from their loops, doing something terrible to the world.
As long as we never get a bad guy as stupid and weak looking as Kuja!
Wouldn't mind getting a few Mogs though! Moogles own.
The fact that sorcery still works leads me to believe the world wasn't shut. Maybe it was partially cut off from Outside, but there had to still be some connection.
Could be that they expected Mog to shut the world, but when the schoolmen still assaulted them they realized they had more work to do.
The No-God is a product of the psukheGiven what evidence? The Psuke didn't arise until 1000+ years after the death of Mog.
The No-God is a product of the psukheGiven what evidence? The Psuke didn't arise until 1000+ years after the death of Mog.
not sure if this one has been floated...maybe the No-God is some resurrected version of Celmomas? he is driven made with grief because of all that he has lost, esp his son. the Carapace is what augments and channels Celmomas' peculiar brand of sorrow which is on the just-right wavelength to shut the heavens. Mog's journey across Earwa is a doomed attempt to find his son? Bakker puts so much about fathers and sons in TSA, that's what got me thinking about it. it would be especially painful for Seswatha if his end goal is to murder his best friend.
if the No-God is in fact an ancient person, i wonder if we will get to read a conversation between the new No-God and Seswatha. maybe Ses will speak through Akka or Serwa. it would be a cool way for Bakker to do a big info reveal
not sure if this one has been floated...maybe the No-God is some resurrected version of Celmomas? he is driven made with grief because of all that he has lost, esp his son. the Carapace is what augments and channels Celmomas' peculiar brand of sorrow which is on the just-right wavelength to shut the heavens. Mog's journey across Earwa is a doomed attempt to find his son? Bakker puts so much about fathers and sons in TSA, that's what got me thinking about it. it would be especially painful for Seswatha if his end goal is to murder his best friend.
if the No-God is in fact an ancient person, i wonder if we will get to read a conversation between the new No-God and Seswatha. maybe Ses will speak through Akka or Serwa. it would be a cool way for Bakker to do a big info reveal
Well, the trouble with that theory is that The No-God is already risen before Celmomas is dead.
If it's someone, it's probably Nau-Cayûti, since the timelines match.
The gods are the blind brain. They don't exist but they believe they do. They are entities in the chaos of the set of all possible things. There is only void but that doesn't stop these potential entities and hungers from experiencing in a rich way. They feel without existing and they are unaware of their own nonexistence. They create the world through anosognosia just as humans create meaning through anosognosia.
But the no god is the opposite. He is an eye focused on his own nonexistence. He can see that he is the result of calculations, see that he has no soul or agency. Somehow, in doing this, he can instigate a new genesis. Thats probably why he's so desperate to know what we, the blind, do see.
Sorcery is like Wittgenstein's conception of language games except it goes beyond language. Meaning games and truth games. We like to think that when we inquire into truth we are doing something something objective but we aren't. Truth is up for grabs and we manipulate it with whatever tools are at our disposal for selfish animal reasons. Science, philosophy, religion and common sense are all the same. They are just sets of rules for the games we play with truth.
Esmenet laughed. “No, you fool. I sa—”
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
...
Somehow, he could feel her cock her head, the way she always did when struggling to articulate something that eluded her. “About the way he speaks … Haven’t you—”
I CANNOT SEE
“No,” he wheezed. “Never noticed.” He coughed violently.
...
“Anyway, Kellhus …” she continued, lowering her voice. Canvas was thin, and the camp crowded. “With everyone whispering about him because of the battle and what he said to Prince Saubon, it struck me—” TELL ME “—before falling asleep that almost everything he says is either, well … either near or far …” Achamian swallowed, managed to say, “How do you mean?” He needed to piss.
Esmenet laughed. “I’m not sure … Remember how I told you how he asked me what it was like to be a harlot—you know, to lie with strange men? When he talks that way, he seems near, uncomfortably near, until you realize how utterly honest and unassuming he is … At the time, I thought he was just another rutting dog—”
WHAT AM I?
“The point, Esmi …”
There was an annoyed pause. “Other times, he seems breathtakingly far when he talks, like he stands on some remote mountain and can see everything, or almost everything …” She paused again, and from the length of it, Achamian knew he had bruised her feelings. He could feel her shrug. “The rest of us just talk in the middle somewhere, while he … And now this, seeing what happened yesterday before it happened. With each day—”
I CANNOT SEE
“—he seems to talk a little nearer and a little farther. It makes me—Akka? You’re trembling! Shaking!”
Yeah that's a great post H, you pretty clearly outlined a lot of what I personally suspect to be the case, and the idea of the No-God as the one "eye turned upon itself" is awesome.
I almost 100% believe the "apocalypse" the series refers to is indeed semantic -- the destruction of intrinsic meaning rather than the physical world, per se. After all, we know the Inchoroi actually want to preserve Earwa itself.
You mention how the No-God strips meaning from souls. One thing I'd point out is that, in my opinion, the meaning doesn't get stripped from souls -- the souls are the meaning. They're the cosmic device that is enabling all this metaphysical shit -- gods, magic -- and ultimately the only thing that makes our universe separate from the one Bakker constructed. It's consciousness made "material", on some level, and therefore susceptible to manipulation or interaction with other things. Everything else comes from there.