The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 03:35:28 pm
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On the tin.
In an interview Scott suggests people with the wrong faith/whole nations will be damned.
But if so, why no mark?
So why is a sorcerers mark - the blood of the onta - different to, say, the Captain and how he looks under the judging eye (keep in mind Akka looks crispy fried under the JE as well)?
What if, rather like blood spilt, it's an unintentional effect?
Then again I've forgotten the Kellhus given explanations of magic, so I might have forgotten stuff. Rereading TWP now.
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My understanding was the mark was a bruise on the fabric of reality - a burn or scrape on the onta - caused by sorcery. The average joe believing in the wrong God wouldn't affect the onta. Sorcery is essentially wielding a limited range of the God's original power without the God's original intent - wielding the act of creation as a weapon. Practitioners of the Psukhe don't have a mark because they speak with the God's passion. No matter what they choose to do with it, their sorcery will always be spoken with the same beauty and earnestness as God's original act of Creation.
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Or more to the point the god can't discern the difference between Psukhe and it's own emotions, much like a cant of compulsion victim does not feel any compulsion. Cue an entry for Kellhus, etc...
But on topic, what's the thought then - with the mark that sorcerers see, vs the mark mimara sees - are they same thing seen?
Or does the mark not matter?
What if the sorcerer mark just doesn't matter, in terms of the damnation machines eternal torture? Well, apart from giving you vulnerability to chorae?
I know Mimara looked at Akka and saw the damnation machines ink upon him, but what if it's for other things? The homosexual relationship he had in college comes to mind as one thing (I mean seriously, how enlightened is the Earwa damnation machine gunna be about that?)
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I wish I had my copies of TJE, Callan, but you've highlighted it yourself - there is a moment in TJE where Mimara sees Achamian with both the Judging Eye and as one of the Few and there are marked differences between the two.
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Is there?? I've started rereading the series because of the reread threads here - but I want to go sequential, so I can't just skip to TJE!
Looking forward to reading that bit again!
It's a wacky old world, is Earwa! It's be more of an academic appreciation of complexity, if the stakes weren't so dread!
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Dread stakes.... hmm... dread steaks ;).
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my simplistic view of the situation of your original question:
3 men, A, B and C.
Man C has a knife.
Man B rather dislikes man A, and believes that if he stabs him to death the world will be a better place.
Man C same situation, but stabs the fucker DED.
Man A probably not marked, man C certainly marked.
Simply believing wrongly is too wishy-washy to deserve some kind of metaphysical mark. Its the wielder of the knife that is worth marking.
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Wilshire, but the guy with the knife doesn't get a mark like a sorcerer has a mark? Another sorcerer wouldn't be able to see he'd stabbed anyone (though Mimara would be able to, presumably, since the CCTV of Earwa is that good...)
Dread stakes.... hmm... dread steaks ;).
They are the law! ... of good eatin'!
Wow, I could have been in advertising!
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Different things, imo. The mark of damnation represents judgement, mark of sorcery is some kind of stain.
Whole nations might be damned, but Mimara's perspective reveals that redemption is for available for individuals - at least those who haven't used sorcery. (Can't see why she wouldn't share her insight with Akka otherwise...)
Does anyone else feel like she uses the chorae to absolve the lich king in TJE? And following that, in WLW she gains a deeper understanding of the mechanics of damnation.
We know that chorae cancel sorcery, effectively returning the onta to 'god's intended state of meaning', as it were.
The mark on the onta is described as childish scribbling or graffiti over reality. If a schoolman put a glamour on you, you would bear the mark but it would leave when the glamour was dispelled. And a chorae would presumably disrupt the cant but leave you unsalted.
Could it be that, by weilding sorcery, schoolmen change or remove themselves from god's reality? In effect, they seperate themselves from god - and all chance of redemption.
When a chorae removes the sorcery the onta can't 'remember' what they were supposed to be like before, so they turn into salt? Even though the Cish bear no visible mark, they get switched off by chorae as well.
eta. this could explain why the hundred can't see the big bad. Maybe they can't percieve sorcery at all. Except Ajokli. Which lends creedence to my Ajokli = demonic Seswatha crackpot.
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I agree with Bbaztek. In addition, I've understood that Bakker borrows ideas and concepts from Tolkien, and then plays with them (nonmen vs elves, Moria vs Cil-Aujas etc...). One of the differences between Tolkien's Elves and Men are that the former and bound by Fate ('the Music'), while the latter have free will in the sense that they are empowered to act beyond Fate/the Music. In the Bakkerian setting, I've seen the acts by the White Luck Warrior (with his glimpses into future developments) as something resembling the grand plan of 'the Music' of the Tolkien setting. But rather than giving Men free will (as is done in the Tolkien setting), I've got the sense that all souled creatures of Earwa are bound to 'the Music' of the divine entity/entities within Earwa up to the point that they take up sorcery (excepting the Cishaurim, who continue to act in accordance with 'the music'). Separating oneself from the plan enables acts outside of 'the Music', but result in damnation for the practitioner.
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If the Psukhe is so pure, then why do chorae kill Cish? They don't affect other non-marked people.
Note that Tirtiga had that weird mark too.
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Well, we know that sorcerens (excluding Cish) are damned, and that chorae kills sorcerers (including Cish)... Would not the rational conclusion be that the effect of chorae are related to the workings of sorcery (whether damed or not), rather than being related to damnation?
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agreed with Glabrod.
Chorae created from Aporos is a anti-sorcery mechanism, not a damnation machine.
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The point was, that if the Psukhe cannot be distinguished from God's 'music', then why would chorae affect it at all? They don't affect normal people, right?
Mimara's use of her chorae against the wight was anti-damnation, not anti-sorcery.
The use of chorae in Tsuramh's carapace indicates that the can be included in sorcererous constructions without canceling them - don't forget they are made using sorcery.
Some logic.
1. Sorcery leaves a mark.
2. Weilding sorcery causes damnation.
3. Only those who can weild sorcery can see the mark.
4. Sorcery sub-type (Psukhe) leaves no mark.
5. Those with no mark may also be damned.
6. Non-damned objects or people may carry the mark if sorcery is used on them.
Conclusions;
-the Mark does not indicate damnation (from 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6)
-weilders of the Psukhe are likely damned (from 2, 4 and 5).
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Some logic.
1. Sorcery leaves a mark.
2. Weilding sorcery causes damnation.
3. Only those who can weild sorcery can see the mark.
4. Sorcery sub-type (Psukhe) leaves no mark.
5. Those with no mark may also be damned.
6. Non-damned objects or people may carry the mark if sorcery is used on them.
Conclusions;
-the Mark does not indicate damnation (from 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6)
-weilders of the Psukhe are likely damned (from 2, 4 and 5).
I don't know that we can say "likely." We don't know enough about the aporos. The Cishaurim's "sorcery" is called such because others don't have a better word for it. But at least by some interpretations the other sorcerers are defacing the God's work/voice while the Cishaurim are channeling it.
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Chorae are kind of balls of condensed doubt. Probably sorcerers, even Cish, just get entangled by magic, becoming creatures of magic. And doubt dispells them - makes them an incredbily mundane substance - salt. Unless that salt actually has some strange properties, like that kid collecting some seemed to think.
The thing is, do we really know sorcerers are damned? Or maybe it's because they blow up dozens of guys with magic, and that's a bit of a murderous no no to the Earwa mechanism?
Perhaps the mark is just...a mark? An aesthetically ugly stain, but no more than that? Apart from making you fall apart in contact with Chorae?
Perhaps Kellhus offers redemption for sorcerers - which is more like just a basic clarification?
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Chorae are kind of balls of condensed doubt. Probably sorcerers, even Cish, just get entangled by magic, becoming creatures of magic. And doubt dispells them - makes them an incredbily mundane substance - salt. Unless that salt actually has some strange properties, like that kid collecting some seemed to think.
My theory is still that salt = chanv. If so, Iyokus is addicted to the choraed remains of his brethren. That guy is really, really screwed in Hell unless Kellhus saves him somehow.
Let's remember too that unless Madness missed it there is the fascinating detail that we have no textual evidence of Cishaurim salting. Chorae does something to them, but we don't know for sure that they salt.
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I still stand by anti-sorcery. Nothing to do with damnation or marks or metaphysics (except sorcery i guess).
The Wight may have been one of the most powerful sorcerous artifacts left over from the Nonmen. Who knows, maybe they've created armies of undead wraith things. Either way, to me its just sorcery.
Though Akka did say something about chorae not working on such things, but he probably didn't know shit about wtf was going on (he took several hits to the head at that point). Akka perspective =/= truth.
Pure, unpure, damned, saved. The Aporos doesn't care. Sorcery is all that matters.
Also, I agree with Callan's suggestions. A simple mark. A simple clarification. Kellhus has given redemtion to schoolmen because he knows that they are not damned for using it, but damned for what it causes. Murder damns, and what is sorcery but the key to death? Not much...
It is possible that the Inchoroi made up that whole thing about sorcery. It was their greatest foe's greatest weapon. Why simply stop at damning false men? Would be a better plan to to kill two birds with one tusk and prevent sorcery of any kind if at all possible? Sounds good to me.
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It is possible that the Inchoroi made up that whole thing about sorcery. It was their greatest foe's greatest weapon. Why simply stop at damning false men? Would be a better plan to to kill two birds with one tusk and prevent sorcery of any kind if at all possible? Sounds good to me.
Nice! We only have that spilling of the beans during an inteview to know about the non men thing. Doesn't have to be the only very special addition to the tusk!
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Whole nations might be damned, but Mimara's perspective reveals that redemption is for available for individuals - at least those who haven't used sorcery. (Can't see why she wouldn't share her insight with Akka otherwise...)
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Which lends creedence to my Ajokli = demonic Seswatha crackpot.
She hasn't yet had a chance to share her insight with Achamian. She only just had the experience with Galian at the climax of WLW.
+1 on the latter Nerdanel, never imagined that before.
Also, big +1 to Galbrod's "Music" analogy.
Love that the forum is moving beyond my capacity to keep track of it all - not that I was doing super awesome with that as it was.
Would not the rational conclusion be that the effect of chorae are related to the workings of sorcery (whether damed or not), rather than being related to damnation?
I'm not sure we can assume that sorcery isn't 100% related to faith/damnation/metaphysics.
It is possible that the Inchoroi made up that whole thing about sorcery. It was their greatest foe's greatest weapon. Why simply stop at damning false men? Would be a better plan to to kill two birds with one tusk and prevent sorcery of any kind if at all possible? Sounds good to me.
+1.
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@ Wilshire,
not disagreeing with you buddy. Just riffing on the mark being evidence of damnation. Chorae are made via sorcery after all, only Mimara's use of one seems to have anything to do with damnation.
As Callan says, we don't even know that sorcerers are 100% damned - Scott muddies the waters on that with Zaranthius' and Kellhus' counterclaims anyway, but then the descriptions of the mark are highly suggestive of corruption and damnation - so...
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Nice! We only have that spilling of the beans during an inteview to know about the non men thing. Doesn't have to be the only very special addition to the tusk!
i thought that there was something in either 4revalations or TFS that suggested the nonmen thing. though that could have just been added because its something that has already been 'revealed'.
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“Only the Few can see the Few.” Sorcery was violent. To speak it was to cut the world as surely as if with a knife. But only the Few—sorcerers—could see this mutilation, and only they could see, moreover, the blood on the hands of the mutilator—the “mark,” as it was called. Only the Few could see one another and one another’s crimes. And when they met, they recognized one another as surely as common men recognized criminals by their lack of a nose.
Not so with the Cishaurim. No one knew why or how, but they worked events as grand and as devastating as any sorcery without marking the world or bearing the mark of their crime.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 42). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Geshrunni had seen a Chorae touch a sorcerer once, the incandescent unravelling of flesh and bone.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 44). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Unclean. The Chronicle of the Tusk, held by the Thousand Temples to be the very word of the God, had named them thus—those Few with the learning and the innate ability to work sorcery. “Cut from them their tongues,” the holy words said, “for their blasphemy is an abomination like no other . . .”
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 58). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
In the Three Seas, Chorae were a crucial variable in the algebra of war. In so many ways the Few were like Gods compared with the masses. Only the Chorae prevented the Schools from utterly dominating the Three Seas.
“Certainly,” Achamian replied, “but Maithanet could likewise field those men against the Cishaurim. However different the Cishaurim may be, they seem to share our vulnerabilities at least.”
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 60). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
The point of all these quotes is that I think many of these questions were addressed in the first two chapters of the book.
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There is no textual explicit evidence for the Inchoroi inscribing the Tusk - the interview Callan mentions simply validated long standing speculation by the forumers of Three-Seas and Westeros on Bakker's part.
Though, of course, Wilshire, I, and others have discussed at some length about there being plenty of obvious speculation on Inchoroi/Halaroi interaction (for instance, Inchoroi must be one, or more, of the Kiunnat Gods, reflected by their time in Eanna during the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars and after).
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Also, lockesnow, I'm not sure that those quotes do anything more than highlight the ambiguity. We already know from Wilshire's attendence of the Ch. 3 excerpt that Bakker intends to explore how society amalgamated and evolved culturally under a prevalent religious premise, which is explicitly false (as far as Bakker revealed the Nonman aren't unilaterally damned as suggested by the Tusk - though, damned for other reasons is still much up for debate).
Sorcery is still very much topical. Is the Mark just a mark? Are faith and sorcery simply sides of a die? Are we onto something with this dissociation from God's Plan (the Music) and sorcerers? Are Kellhus' explanations in TTT valid or a method of control - when TTT was about to come out Bakker made some interesting comments about sorcerous infodrops, though obviously I still await Gnosis on Gnosis that isn't Ward to Cant.
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I just thought about this and wondered if it's because you could recant your wrong faith at any point? (recant it for what, who knows?). But we don't have any accounts of a sorcerer seeing someone suddenly flash with the mark as they died (though that'd be so flaggedly cool to have had that in the story from the start, yet have had no idea what the hell it was in reference to at that time?)
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That would be really interesting. I wonder what Inrau looked like as he died? Faithful servant until just before death, than a blasphemer...
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I just thought about this and wondered if it's because you could recant your wrong faith at any point? (recant it for what, who knows?). But we don't have any accounts of a sorcerer seeing someone suddenly flash with the mark as they died (though that'd be so flaggedly cool to have had that in the story from the start, yet have had no idea what the hell it was in reference to at that time?)
Like getting hit with a chorae is a 'forced recant'? Every sorcerer killed with a chorae goes to heaven? Cleansed? Perhaps Kellhus is angling to get in front of Sorweel's chorae.
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That would be pretty freaking ironic. I like it :)