The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: obstinate on July 30, 2017, 11:54:00 am
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Is Kelmomas the No God because he is a twin souled sociopath? Or is he a twin souled sociopath because he is the No God? Was Nau-Cayuti the No God because of some fact of Anusumbrior genetics, or merely because Kelmomas eventually would be?
Is Kelmomas invisible to the gods because he is the No-God? Or is he the No-God because he's invisible to the gods?
Depending on the direction of the arrow of causality, it's interesting to note that Kelmomas was always doomed to become the No-God. If he is invisible to the gods because he is the No-God, then he was necessarily the No-God. If he wasn't, then the White Luck would have killed Kellhus several different times.
Is Kellhus unable to anticipate Kelmomas in the Golden Room because he's the No-God, or because it's too improbable?
I'm saddened by the way these books ended. I mean, I'm not disappointed. The ending is classic Bakker and jives very well with my expectations, which is a point I intend to make in another thread. (Only I thought that Kellhus would become the No-God. Close!) It's fitting that my most-hated character would become the engine of the Great Ordeal's destruction, and likely that of the world. But I wanted better for my sweet Drusases and Mimaras of the world.
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But I wanted better for my sweet Drusases and Mimaras of the world.
I'm sure they or others like them will continue to strive against their monstrous circumstances.
EDIT: Welcome back, obstinate.
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I think being a sociopath definitely has something to do with it. We saw that Nau-Cayuti didn't feel fear, right?
I'm not so sure Kelmomas actually has two souls though, or whether he just believes he does. The fact that he doesn't notice that he and his alter constantly change places is bisarr. And Kellhus says that he isn't sure if there is even someone to kill when referring to Kelmomas, so I don't think we can be sure either. I would posit an alternative interpretation: That Kelmomas actually has no soul.
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I'm not so sure Kelmomas actually has two souls though, or whether he just believes he does.
I'd say the is more than sufficient evidence that Kel has two souls. Plus, with him being the namesake to Celmommas, its pretty much a given.
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I'd say the is more than sufficient evidence that Kel has two souls. Plus, with him being the namesake to Celmommas, its pretty much a given.
How so?
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Well all of the evidence in TJE and TWLW. And, the two-soul thing has been made into a big deal in this series. I just dont see why it would be a red-herring. I mean i can set here and take all day and quote all the evidence, but you read the books too. I think its goes without question that Kel is two-souled.
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Are you referring to the parts with Kelmomas point of view? i agree that it really seems like he has two souls when viewing things form his perspective, but the revelation that they change places threw a big monkey wrench in that (seemingly obvious) interpretation for me. If they are really two people, how could they not keep each other apart?
I think Kelmomas two souls are more like the two metaphorical souls Serwa talks about.: An Anasûrimbor is born with two souls, one that acts and one that observes. I think kelmomas condition is what happens when you don't have an actual soul to unify these two parts.
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Didn't RSB say in the q&a it was more to do with a lack of identity rather than a surfeit?
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Didn't RSB say in the q&a it was more to do with a lack of identity rather than a surfeit?
Yeah, a soul lacking an identity. Kellhus said something about how the darkness ruled him. Maybe that's it? Maybe Kel's soul is so damaged that he in some way has become the darkness before him, collapsing subject and object, becoming the No-God.
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I think you inserted the "soul" part yourself. Here is the quote (in context).
edit: Oh, and the entire time I thought Kelmomas was supposed to be twin-souled, was he actually meant to represent non-conscious human thought via bicameralism?
Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.
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I think that Cel has two souls but maybe not and he's just crazy as fuck and has multiple personality like Gollum/Smeagol.
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I think you inserted the "soul" part yourself. Here is the quote (in context).
edit: Oh, and the entire time I thought Kelmomas was supposed to be twin-souled, was he actually meant to represent non-conscious human thought via bicameralism?
Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.
He has to have a soul though, since the carapace needs a soul to revive the No-God AFAIK.
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Yeah he will have a soul that's why he can see sorcery and the mark. He is one of the Few as well.
I'll have to re-read but i got the idea from Kellhus when he retrieved Proyas for a bit and gave him an info-dump. That actions outside everything, change the whole in a way everyone inside is unaware if, will go get the quote.
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I'm not so sure Kelmomas actually has two souls though, or whether he just believes he does.
I'd say the is more than sufficient evidence that Kel has two souls. Plus, with him being the namesake to Celmommas, its pretty much a given.
I agree. It seems a given that Kel has two souls.
Didn't RSB say in the q&a it was more to do with a lack of identity rather than a surfeit?
Yeah, a soul lacking an identity. Kellhus said something about how the darkness ruled him. Maybe that's it? Maybe Kel's soul is so damaged that he in some way has become the darkness before him, collapsing subject and object, becoming the No-God.
I'm not sure that has anything to do with him becoming the No-god. My interpretation was that it was the actual magnitude of the soul that animated the carapace. Nau-Cayuti was a soul of great magnitude, and he animated the carapace. If I recall, there was nothing indicating that NC was twin souled. I assumed the same of Kelmomas (or if it had come to it, Kellhus).
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themerchant, that's true. I kind of forgot that he is one of the few. So yes, he must have a soul.
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Yeah he will have a soul that's why he can see sorcery and the mark. He is one of the Few as well.
I've been wondering about Kelmomas being one of the Few and twin-souled after I went and reread TUC. What if Samarmas is one of the Few but Kelmomas isn't? They apparently continually switch places as the "dominant" soul in the body. You'd think Kellhus and/or Serwa would have noticed/mentioned the fact that Kelmomas was of the Few, but the constant switch (and Kellhus and Serwa not being around Kelmomas very often) could explain that.
I don't know if this would work with them being identical twins and all, but this is not real world genetics we're talking about. It might be possible that, when Hagitatas separated Kelmomas and Samarmas, the incomplete separation of souls (I'm presuming it was incomplete because Samarmas was left mentally handicapped rather than brain dead or something of the sort) led to Kelmomas also becoming one of the Few in an incomplete way.
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Reminds me of that weird case of a siamese twin pair conjoined at the head that share a good bit of brain. Whenever one says "I" they're referring to the other twin, not themselves. I wonder how long it took their caretakers to figure that out.
Living like he's been living, how could he develop a conventional sense of identity?
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Yeah he will have a soul that's why he can see sorcery and the mark. He is one of the Few as well.
You'd think Kellhus and/or Serwa would have noticed/mentioned the fact that Kelmomas was of the Few, but the constant switch (and Kellhus and Serwa not being around Kelmomas very often) could explain that.
You aren't marked until you perform sorcery. There is no way to tell until then. Kelmomas - maybe because of the switching - was good at hiding things. Being of the Few was just one more of these things, though it would be no easier to notice than his other mental conditions.
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Sorry if this has been discussed (I haven't fully read the thread). Is there a connection between why Sorcerers aren't allowed to have families and the no-God. As far as I know only 3 sorcerers have had children. Ses, kellhus, and akka.
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Well, I believe that its just not allowed. In sure there are a ton of sorcerer baby Bastards. But, they are not allowed to marry, so if they have children they are not legitimate.
I'm interested in why you think it would have a connection to the No-God, though. What made you come up with that connection?
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Seems to me that assuming Seswatha had a son, andthat it was NC, and that there are only 3 schoolmen in history to have sons, is kind of a big stretch.
Certainly, with all the hundreds of thousands of, or millions, of people the Consult fed into the Golden Room, they would have encountered at least one other Son-Of-A-Schoolman.
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Seems to me that assuming Seswatha had a son, andthat it was NC, and that there are only 3 schoolmen in history to have sons, is kind of a big stretch.
Certainly, with all the hundreds of thousands of, or millions, of people the Consult fed into the Golden Room, they would have encountered at least one other Son-Of-A-Schoolman.
Yea, there are definitely bastard schoolmen babies running around Earwa. You can make marriage against the law for them, but not sex. And, I'm sure they fathered children. But, we just don't see it, and why should we? Its of no importance to the series.
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Yeah he will have a soul that's why he can see sorcery and the mark. He is one of the Few as well.
You'd think Kellhus and/or Serwa would have noticed/mentioned the fact that Kelmomas was of the Few, but the constant switch (and Kellhus and Serwa not being around Kelmomas very often) could explain that.
You aren't marked until you perform sorcery. There is no way to tell until then. Kelmomas - maybe because of the switching - was good at hiding things. Being of the Few was just one more of these things, though it would be no easier to notice than his other mental conditions.
Okay, then how did Serwa get identified as one of the Few as a three-year-old? Because I might be a tad confused about that. Was she actually attempting to perform sorcery at that age? Did someone think to check using the Wathi Doll or a similar method like Akka did with Kellhus?
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Tests can be done, like the Wathi Doll test that Akka used to test Kellhus. That's a great example because it shows that Akka couldn't identify Kellhus as being of the Few the entire time they were together, and it shows that sorcery can be done without marking an individual (albeit extremely minor).
I'm sure the Mandate had several such tests, and Kellhus could probably devise his own in the event that a child of 3 years old couldn't be coerced into saying the name of a Wathi Doll :) .
Kellmomas was never tested because Kellhus just didn't care at that point. You might also argue that he didn't test on purpose so that he wouldn't have to bother Esmenet - such a loving husband.
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Okay, then how did Serwa get identified as one of the Few as a three-year-old? Because I might be a tad confused about that. Was she actually attempting to perform sorcery at that age? Did someone think to check using the Wathi Doll or a similar method like Akka did with Kellhus?
She might have indicated to someone that she can see the Mark, while Kelmomas never did.
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That's a great point. Akka, when his Eyes Opened, he saw the world in aching clarity, full of magnificent beauty. When he sees people marked, he sees a wounded world, repulsion at the scars upon reality.
A child, unable to speak but able to See, might cry hysterically when held by such a scarred monster.
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Okay, then how did Serwa get identified as one of the Few as a three-year-old? Because I might be a tad confused about that. Was she actually attempting to perform sorcery at that age? Did someone think to check using the Wathi Doll or a similar method like Akka did with Kellhus?
As we've surmised elsewhere, Achamian vaguely refers to a test done by the Mandate Pederisk which identifies children Few. It very well might be the Wathi Doll test but it could be as simple as putting three objects in front of a child and asking them to pick out the "different" (Marked) one.
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Tests can be done, like the Wathi Doll test that Akka used to test Kellhus. That's a great example because it shows that Akka couldn't identify Kellhus as being of the Few the entire time they were together, and it shows that sorcery can be done without marking an individual (albeit extremely minor).
I'm sure the Mandate had several such tests, and Kellhus could probably devise his own in the event that a child of 3 years old couldn't be coerced into saying the name of a Wathi Doll :) .
Kellmomas was never tested because Kellhus just didn't care at that point. You might also argue that he didn't test on purpose so that he wouldn't have to bother Esmenet - such a loving husband.
I suppose that is the most likely possibility, then. :)
She might have indicated to someone that she can see the Mark, while Kelmomas never did.
Also a good point! It would be just like Kelmomas to keep that secret piece of knowledge to himself... And, like Wilshire said, it was not like Kellhus cared much at that point.
That's a great point. Akka, when his Eyes Opened, he saw the world in aching clarity, full of magnificent beauty. When he sees people marked, he sees a wounded world, repulsion at the scars upon reality.
A child, unable to speak but able to See, might cry hysterically when held by such a scarred monster.
For some reason, I am extremely amused at the mental image of Kellhus noticing how little Serwa would have a terrified reaction anytime she saw him or someone else with the Mark and thinking "okay, there might be a pattern here"...
As we've surmised elsewhere, Achamian vaguely refers to a test done by the Mandate Pederisk which identifies children Few. It very well might be the Wathi Doll test but it could be as simple as putting three objects in front of a child and asking them to pick out the "different" (Marked) one.
I had completely forgotten about the test done by the Pederisk. You're right, that was most likely what they did, or something quite similar. Especially as that was already established as being specifically used for children (unlike the Wathi Doll?).
Though the children the Pederisk tested were usually older than Serwa, right? I seem to recall Achamian mentioning he was like eight or nine by the time he was identified as being of the few (might be misremembering, though).
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Akka wasn't born with the ability to see the Onta. Seems that its something that might occur quasi randomly in a person's early life. Seems unusual that Serwe had it at the age of 3 and was identified immediately - that and her Dunyain-ness is what lead her to the heights she was able to reach at such a young age.
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Akka wasn't born with the ability to see the Onta. Seems that its something that might occur quasi randomly in a person's early life. Seems unusual that Serwe had it at the age of 3 and was identified immediately - that and her Dunyain-ness is what lead her to the heights she was able to reach at such a young age.
I know he wasn't, but as it's unclear how early it can first manifest, I was basically musing on that.
But you're right, it's very likely that Serwa expressed that ability much earlier than would be the norm due to being half-Dûnyain. Eight-year-old Kelmomas (Samarmas?) being able to see the Onta is not out of the ordinary considering what we know from Akka, but then again, we can't know how long that had been going on.
Which just makes me wonder when Akka Jr. will express it...certainly not early enough for us to still see it in the series (that assuming he is of the Few, which seems very probable since both of his parents are).
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I don't think Akka Jr. will be of much interest from a plot perspective, but I could be wrong.
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I don't think Akka Jr. will be of much interest from a plot perspective, but I could be wrong.
Probably not, given the timeline we have stated out for TNG. I'm still curious because as far as we know, he's the only character whose parents are both of the Few, and I really wanted to know how that would work out.
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Akka wasn't born with the ability to see the Onta.
Considering how tied to language sorcery is, it wouldn't surprise me if the abilities of the Few manifested themselves with the maturation of the language part of the brain.
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I don't think Akka Jr. will be of much interest from a plot perspective, but I could be wrong.
I think it could - me thinks the baby being born in Golgotterath is significant beyond metaphor.
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I think it could - me thinks the baby being born in Golgotterath is significant beyond metaphor.
How so? (not disagreeing, just curious)
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I think it could - me thinks the baby being born in Golgotterath is significant beyond metaphor.
How so? (not disagreeing, just curious)
I don't know what exactly, but the mountain of description of the dread of the place, nothing grows there, etc - seems it would have an impact on the newborn of some kind. I know this was vetted as incorrect in another thread, but I'm sticking with my original read that the second baby was stillborn as TNG kicked in between births. The whole thing seems dripping with significance beyond now they have a child and race away for their lives.
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If the No-God series is going to be the new Sagas, then we need to consider it potentially spanning years in-universe. It was twelve years last time an Apocalypse happened, as far as I remember.
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I don't know what exactly, but the mountain of description of the dread of the place, nothing grows there, etc - seems it would have an impact on the newborn of some kind. I know this was vetted as incorrect in another thread, but I'm sticking with my original read that the second baby was stillborn as TNG kicked in between births. The whole thing seems dripping with significance beyond now they have a child and race away for their lives.
I see, it could end up being the case. You never know.
I think the timing with the birth of the second baby was never definitely proven as happening before the No-God's activation. So that doesn't completely disprove your theory.
If the No-God series is going to be the new Sagas, than we need to consider it potentially spanning years in-universe. It was twelve years last time an Apocalypse happened, as far as I remember.
Very true. I had been thinking so much about how TNG is going to begin a few weeks after the end of TUC that I forgot to think beyond that.
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I think it could - me thinks the baby being born in Golgotterath is significant beyond metaphor.
How so? (not disagreeing, just curious)
I don't know what exactly, but the mountain of description of the dread of the place, nothing grows there, etc - seems it would have an impact on the newborn of some kind. I know this was vetted as incorrect in another thread, but I'm sticking with my original read that the second baby was stillborn as TNG kicked in between births. The whole thing seems dripping with significance beyond now they have a child and race away for their lives.
I don't mean to say the child isn't extremely important form a world-building perspective. Just that given what Bakker has said about the start of the next book being weeks after we left off, and that the other book will be the Crabikiad, I think the baby will just be a baby.
If there is a post-TNG world with significant time jumps, or I guess if TNG itself includes time jumps to make the baby a relevant age, then it'll be extremely important. I'm just not sure that in the limited timeline that I think is going to be TNG, that the baby will be old enough to be vital to the plot.
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I think it could - me thinks the baby being born in Golgotterath is significant beyond metaphor.
How so? (not disagreeing, just curious)
I don't know what exactly, but the mountain of description of the dread of the place, nothing grows there, etc - seems it would have an impact on the newborn of some kind. I know this was vetted as incorrect in another thread, but I'm sticking with my original read that the second baby was stillborn as TNG kicked in between births. The whole thing seems dripping with significance beyond now they have a child and race away for their lives.
I don't mean to say the child isn't extremely important form a world-building perspective. Just that given what Bakker has said about the start of the next book being weeks after we left off, and that the other book will be the Crabikiad, I think the baby will just be a baby.
If there is a post-TNG world with significant time jumps, or I guess if TNG itself includes time jumps to make the baby a relevant age, then it'll be extremely important. I'm just not sure that in the limited timeline that I think is going to be TNG, that the baby will be old enough to be vital to the plot.
Maybe - Bakker did say this next series will be "discovery" writing, so he could change his mind on what he's said in Q&A. I still feel sick I couldn't join while he was live here, I hadn't finished the book by then.
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Baby is of the utmost importance. Last child born before the rise of the No-God. I don't find it likely, but the baby Kellhus theory does stand on its own two feet.
I think that we will see a redemption of mankind. I don't thinknthe baby will matter much in that, but will be utterly important to the future of Earwa.
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Was the "two weeks after TUC" something he said here? He must have reiterated it at ZDC. On that note, at ZDC he definitely was unsure of the exact style of at least one of the TNG books, so its very possible it ends up being very much like an Earwan-Contemporary Sagas, and actually covers the entirety of Resumption up through to the end of the world (or the descrution of the NG/Consult, however it goes).
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I don't mean to say the child isn't extremely important form a world-building perspective. Just that given what Bakker has said about the start of the next book being weeks after we left off, and that the other book will be the Crabikiad, I think the baby will just be a baby.
If there is a post-TNG world with significant time jumps, or I guess if TNG itself includes time jumps to make the baby a relevant age, then it'll be extremely important. I'm just not sure that in the limited timeline that I think is going to be TNG, that the baby will be old enough to be vital to the plot.
He doesn't even need to get to adolescence or adulthood to actually play an important role as a character. In TAE we had 8-year-old Kelmomas play a major role. Granted, Akka Jr. isn't Dûnyain or even half-Dûnyain, but there's still the unknown effects qirri might have had on him while in the womb...
Baby is of the utmost importance. Last child born before the rise of the No-God. I don't find it likely, but the baby Kellhus theory does stand on its own two feet.
I think that we will see a redemption of mankind. I don't thinknthe baby will matter much in that, but will be utterly important to the future of Earwa.
Playing devil's advocate/being nitpicky here, we don't know if he was the very last born before the No-God rose. Eärwa is a big place, after all... (Please don't take this as a slight on your theory, MSJ, I'm just pointing out this possibility.)
But yes, it's possible the symbolism of the birth might have relevance in the future.
Was the "two weeks after TUC" something he said here? He must have reiterated it at ZDC. On that note, at ZDC he definitely was unsure of the exact style of at least one of the TNG books, so its very possible it ends up being very much like an Earwan-Contemporary Sagas, and actually covers the entirety of Resumption up through to the end of the world (or the descrution of the NG/Consult, however it goes).
Did Bakker actually specified "two weeks" as opposed to a more vague "a few weeks"? I can't even remember what was said about that back in July/August anymore...
It's definitely possible he will change his plans on the outline/timeline of TNG, or at least concerning the non-Crabicus part of it.
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The whole thing seems dripping with significance beyond now they have a child and race away for their lives.
Kelmomas was a jarring reminder of families and home for the Ordeal at the Last Whelming. I'm sure a newborn could serve as potent motivation for the retreating Ordeal.
Was the "two weeks after TUC" something he said here?
"The next installment picks up several weeks after the disaster at Golgotterath. (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg35988;topicseen#msg35988)"