[H]

Prologue:

"Scalper!" the lone traveller cried out. His voice possessed the gravel of an old officer's bawl.

A clue as to the identity of the traveler perhaps?

The one the secret voice had told him to drive away.

If he fails, the secret voice said, he will die.

Anasûrimbor Kelmomas smiled what seemed his first true smile of the day.

The voice is probably one of the biggest mysteries that I honestly don't have a grasp on.  I don't think it is Kellhus, or the Consult.  My best guess would be one of the gods, but there is the possibility that is really is Samarmas.  I doubt this though, I think that the twin's death simply left Kel open to the influence of the Outside.

Only managed to make it through the prologue, but we've began the true Slog!

[Madness]

Lol - it's rewarding to see a thread in the TAE Almanac.

[themerchant]

The voice is Moe.

Moe is everything that we cannot explain.

[MSJ]

He suspects, the secret voice whispered. Suspects what? That you are make-believe.

Trying to make sense of this just has my mind going in circles. Who or what the voice is? What in the world does this even mean? I have no clue who the voice is truly, I have always leaned towards it being Sammy though...

The revelation of adultery was significant in its own right—and it stung the old Wizard for reasons he dare not ponder. But the possibility that Seswatha might be Nau-Cayûti’s father? Not all facts are equal. Some hang like leaves from the branching of more substantial truths. Others stand like trunks, shouldering the beliefs of entire nations. And a few—a desperate few—are seeds.

As you know,  I'm of the opinion that Akka's dream are unfiltered truths straight from Seswatha.  I believe Nayu is Ses's son and this is merely Seswatha providing Akka with little truths to get him to follow the dreams. Akka is the direct hand of Seswatha in these events.  I also don't see where this makes him at odds with Kellhus.

I’m no conqueror.” He paused as though to frown at the very notion. “As mad as it sounds, I really have come to save Mankind.”“Lies,” the Prince murmured through his confusion. “Liar."

So...... is he a liar? The million dollar question,  no? After his exchange with Moe, I truly believe that whatever Kellhus is trying to accomplish, he believes is truly best for Mankind. Now, as Locke has pointed out many times, Kellhus is not always correct in his assumptions. So, what he thinks is best, might not be.

ETA: one reason why I believe Kellhus here. He always talks about controlling the souls of others with Truths.

[Odium]

I was not very loquacious throughout the PoN half of the slog. I'll try to put forward more thoughts as we advance through this one.

Eyes rolling, they stared in lust and apprehension...

Men.

Perhaps it's the amount of Michael Haneke's cinema I've been consuming lately, but something about the very beginning of TJE gives me the initial impression that the Sranc are, in many ways, a grotesque distortion of the negative qualities in Men. Afterwards, the anonymous traveler reflects on how the scalpers are like animals. I feel the passage I've quoted and what immediately follows, including the tone throughout the scene with the traveler, do suggest that there are many parallels between the Skin Eaters and their prey. I'll even stick my fingers into the pot of wild speculation and say that afterwards, Bakker might be deliberately mentioning other typical conceits of violent men when he states that Ironsoul is as jealous of his voice as he is of his women and his blood.

(edit: to clean up my thoughts there a bit, what I mean here is that re: the feminism threads, another key concept in the series is Bakker's portrayal of this objectively, metaphysically hypermasculine world and all the terrible shit that involves, which would be the reason behind a juxtaposition of Men and Sranc to begin with)

Regarding the traveler's identity, I don't think he's anything more than the secondary character he appears to be. A red herring if he was intentionally meant to sow the question of who he is. Mostly I think he's just a convenient vehicle for the scene and, authorially, an easy way of introducing us to changes in the setting since the end of TTT.

Regarding Kelmomas' voice, I've reviewed the theories that have been suggested on the forum and the one I like the most is that the voice is Ajokli. I feel like I read another quote somewhere (besides, obviously, the prologue) that really put me behind the idea... besides, I think it fits into the framework of the other ways we've seen the subtle influence of the Hundred: Cnauir, Sorweel, and Psatma.

Regarding MSJ's points:

As you know,  I'm of the opinion that Akka's dream are unfiltered truths straight from Seswatha.  I believe Nayu is Ses's son and this is merely Seswatha providing Akka with little truths to get him to follow the dreams. Akka is the direct hand of Seswatha in these events.  I also don't see where this makes him at odds with Kellhus.

Later on, we receive in-universe confirmation that all of Akka's dreams have secondary interpretations relating to their contexts and other secondary meanings. Here I believe we are glimpsing the suggestion that not only did Seswatha father Nau-Cayuti, but potentially that he created the Dunyain and consequently Kellhus.

This ties deeply into my interpretation of some of the biggest questions in the series, among them the No-God itself. I believe Nau-Cayuti's fate-worse-than-death is suggested in the [ex-TUC] excerpt, and that it was to become the No-God, the first self-moving soul that deconstructs the soul itself by dissolving its 'meaning' on a metaphysical level. I arrived at this conclusion after contemplating the series and what I understand of Bakker's philosophy as written on his blog, so your mileage may vary wildly.

So...... is he a liar? The million dollar question,  no? After his exchange with Moe, I truly believe that whatever Kellhus is trying to accomplish, he believes is truly best for Mankind. Now, as Locke has pointed out many times, Kellhus is not always correct in his assumptions. So, what he thinks is best, might not be.

Along the same line as my previous thought, I feel there are multiple Nau-Cayuti / Kellhus parallels. I believe he was unknowingly turned into the No-God, and that Kellhus is on his way to Golgotterath because he truly believes he can harness the power of the No-God in a better way. IMO the narrative definitely indicates that Kellhus believes himself a genuine savior, basically re: everything relating to "The trial has broken you."

Also, per the influence of the gods, it was mentioned here on this very forum that Scott once dropped a comment about the Womb Plague & Yatwer being tied by irony. I believe Wilshire is spot on when he suggests that the irony here is the Womb Plague being an ironic byproduct of immortality and Yatwer ironically trying to murder Kellhus, the only being capable of stopping the rise of the No-God, because the gods are blind to the No-God's existence.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts so far.

[H]

I was not very loquacious throughout the PoN half of the slog. I'll try to put forward more thoughts as we advance through this one.

Eyes rolling, they stared in lust and apprehension...

Men.

Perhaps it's the amount of Michael Haneke's cinema I've been consuming lately, but something about the very beginning of TJE gives me the initial impression that the Sranc are, in many ways, a grotesque distortion of the negative qualities in Men. Afterwards, the anonymous traveler reflects on how the scalpers are like animals. I feel the passage I've quoted and what immediately follows, including the tone throughout the scene with the traveler, do suggest that there are many parallels between the Skin Eaters and their prey. I'll even stick my fingers into the pot of wild speculation and say that afterwards, Bakker might be deliberately mentioning other typical conceits of violent men when he states that Ironsoul is as jealous of his voice as he is of his women and his blood.

(edit: to clean up my thoughts there a bit, what I mean here is that re: the feminism threads, another key concept in the series is Bakker's portrayal of this objectively, metaphysically hypermasculine world and all the terrible shit that involves, which would be the reason behind a juxtaposition of Men and Sranc to begin with)

I think it runs deeper than that.  I presented the idea back somewhere (probably based off someone else's idea that I can't recall) that both the Inchoroi and the Nonmen are actually allegories to the dangers of trans-humanism.  Indeed, this doesn't end there though, since the Sranc are even further debased Nonmen, I think what you say is essentially true.  The Sranc are basically the worst of Nonmen and Men put together.

As you know,  I'm of the opinion that Akka's dream are unfiltered truths straight from Seswatha.  I believe Nayu is Ses's son and this is merely Seswatha providing Akka with little truths to get him to follow the dreams. Akka is the direct hand of Seswatha in these events.  I also don't see where this makes him at odds with Kellhus.

Later on, we receive in-universe confirmation that all of Akka's dreams have secondary interpretations relating to their contexts and other secondary meanings. Here I believe we are glimpsing the suggestion that not only did Seswatha father Nau-Cayuti, but potentially that he created the Dunyain and consequently Kellhus.

While I do think that Akka's "new" Dreams are truthful, I think that what Scott has done to essentially "throw us off" is to mix the truth with still more propaganda, so that we can never be sure, really, of how to square any of them off with the others.  We are left to try to piece together the truthful aspects with what is really just more window-dressing and misdirection.

Made it through Chapter 1:

upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

[MSJ]

Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

Tell me, why couldn't the Consult conquer Sarkapus? The chorae hoard? Is this why Kellhus hand is salting when he meets Sorweel?

[H]

Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

Tell me, why couldn't the Consult conquer Sarkapus? The chorae hoard? Is this why Kellhus hand is salting when he meets Sorweel?

Yeah, we've talked about it before and the two places spared the Apocalypse were Sakarpus and Atrithau.

Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard and Atrithau is on Anarcane Ground.  My speculation was that the No-God could be blind to these places, because of this.  An alternative theory could be that without being able to use sorcery, it was not worth the effort for the Consult to take these places.

Both seem pretty plausible.  Kellhus demonstates that neither of these things effect him particularly (but yeah, he probably is salting from all the Chorae that are around but more probably Sorweel's).

[Odium]

I can't imagine conventional strategy applying much to the armies of the Weapon Races. Just judging from the Sranc/Bashrag it seems they kind of war with overwhelming numbers. I have a hard time imagining that the Consult would just spare two cities because of the resources necessary to conquer them. I'm sure there is some deeper significance to Atrithau and Sakarpus enduring the No-God, and what we know of them strongly suggests it has something to do with the disadvantages for sorcery at both locations. The Consult employed sorcery to create the No-God - maybe, paradoxically, it depends on it in some way.

[H]

I can't imagine conventional strategy applying much to the armies of the Weapon Races. Just judging from the Sranc/Bashrag it seems they kind of war with overwhelming numbers. I have a hard time imagining that the Consult would just spare two cities because of the resources necessary to conquer them. I'm sure there is some deeper significance to Atrithau and Sakarpus enduring the No-God, and what we know of them strongly suggests it has something to do with the disadvantages for sorcery at both locations. The Consult employed sorcery to create the No-God - maybe, paradoxically, it depends on it in some way.

Well, I had a theory that the Carapace was made so that the No-God could not see itself, but even more so that it is appart from it's own nature.  In other words, it is not only blind to itself, but it is unaware of the very nature of it's existence.  It knows nothing of it's own boundaries, it knows nothing of what it is even doing.

I liken it to awaking up with your memory wiped in a sensory derivation tank.  You can't see, you can't feel anything, you can't even know if you are really moving, or where to even if you were.  We know what the No-God is doing in Earwa, but it doesn't.  We know that it can unify the will of Sranc, but I would venture that the No-God knows nothing of it.  It simply does this by existing.

In this way, the fact that Sakarpus and Atrithau are blind spots makes sense, just as it is it's own blind spot.

Made it through chapters 2 and 3 today:

Not all facts are equal. Some hang like leaves from the branching of more substantial truths. Others stand like trunks, shouldering the beliefs of entire nations. And a few—a desperate few—are seeds.

The mention of seeds in relation to Celmomas.  Coincidence?  Doubtful.  Implication though?  That is less clear.  Perhaps drawing us forward to the Slog and for Ishual, the place of seeds.

Theliopa, her eldest daughter by Kellhus, bowed in a stiff curtsy as they approached. Perhaps she was the strangest of her children, even moreso than Inrilatas, but curiously all the more safe for it. Theliopa was a woman with an unearthly hollow where human sentiment should be. Even as an infant she had never cried, never gurgled with laughter, never reached out to finger the image of her mother's face. Esmenet had once overheard her nursemaids whispering that she would happily starve rather than call out for food, and even now she was thin in the extreme, tall and angular like the God-her-father, but emaciated, to the point where her skin seemed tented over the woodwork of her bones. The clothes she wore were ridiculously elaborate—despite her godlike intellect, the subtleties of style and fashion utterly eluded her—a gold-brocaded gown fairly armoured in black pearls.

Am I the only one who thinks of her name as Theliopia?  I know it's wrong, but it has a better ring to it to me.  Anyway, she is probably my favorite of all Kellhus' kids, Inrilatas aside.  She is weird and creepy, but like my enjoyment of Aurang, she never pulls punches.  Just the facts mam, just the facts.

Twenty years ago, Fanayal had ranked among the most cunning and committed foes of the First Holy War. Though the heathen Empire of Kian had been the first to topple at the Aspect-Emperor's feet, Fanayal had somehow managed to avoid his nation's fate.

It is pretty interesting that will all of Kellhus' power, he still lets Fanayal live.  Certainly this was a full choice.  Perhaps because he knew that while he was gone, an external enemy was needed to keep the empire together?

His name was Hagitatas, famed among the Conriyan caste-nobility as a healer of troubled souls. Somehow, through tenderness, wisdom, and incalculable patience, he managed to pry her two little darlings apart, to give them the interval they required to draw their own breath, and so raise the frame of individual identities. Such was her relief that even the subsequent discovery of Samarmas's idiocy seemed cause for celebration.

I wonder if this separation is somehow the source of Kel's voice?

[Alia]

Regarding the traveler's identity, I don't think he's anything more than the secondary character he appears to be. A red herring if he was intentionally meant to sow the question of who he is. Mostly I think he's just a convenient vehicle for the scene and, authorially, an easy way of introducing us to changes in the setting since the end of TTT.

As I've already written somewhere on this forum, I think traveller is Sarl. First of all, his voice is the only one described in the book (several times) as "gravelly". Secondly, Ironsoul's only companion in prologue is a cowled figure (Cleric). Later Sarl tells Achamian that he's been with Kosoter for many years, but of course he can be lying.

[H]

Regarding the traveler's identity, I don't think he's anything more than the secondary character he appears to be. A red herring if he was intentionally meant to sow the question of who he is. Mostly I think he's just a convenient vehicle for the scene and, authorially, an easy way of introducing us to changes in the setting since the end of TTT.

As I've already written somewhere on this forum, I think traveller is Sarl. First of all, his voice is the only one described in the book (several times) as "gravelly". Secondly, Ironsoul's only companion in prologue is a cowled figure (Cleric). Later Sarl tells Achamian that he's been with Kosoter for many years, but of course he can be lying.

Interesting.  I think I do recall you saying that.

It would make sense, since we know that the Consult knows of the Skin-Eaters and of Akka and Mimara.

[Camlost]

When the grimaced, their blank and beautiful faces were clenched like crumpled silk, becoming expressions of ancient and inbred men

I can't even recall why, but after my first reading I was left with the impression that the Sranc might not have originally be a product of the Techne. This phrase just reminded me of it. Maybe more evidence will arise to persuade me I'm not completely off on this one. I doubt it though

    "Scalper!" the lone traveller cried out. His voice possessed the gravel of an old officer's bawl.


A clue as to the identity of the traveler perhaps?

As I've already written somewhere on this forum, I think traveller is Sarl. First of all, his voice is the only one described in the book (several times) as "gravelly". Secondly, Ironsoul's only companion in prologue is a cowled figure (Cleric). Later Sarl tells Achamian that he's been with Kosoter for many years, but of course he can be lying.

I thought I'd weigh in with a few more details to obfuscate everyone's reading a little more.

"Veteran," the traveller said, bowing his head in due respect....
"How did you find us?" the man asked in his native tongue....
The traveller did not care. Men prized what they would.
"We find everyone."

Sarl seems to be older than the Captain by my interpretation, likely making him a Veteran as well. I thought it worth noting that the traveller speaks Ainoni. I feel like this wouldn't be mentioned if the shift in language were not meant to signify something; perhaps a fluency for language in this case? Lastly, the traveller muses "Men" as something different from himself.

   

He suspects, the secret voice whispered. Suspects what? That you are make-believe.

Trying to make sense of this just has my mind going in circles. Who or what the voice is? What in the world does this even mean? I have no clue who the voice is truly, I have always leaned towards it being Sammy though...

I'm still holding my verdict on the voice. I can't recall quite where (I'll try to dredge it up later), but there is a comment along the lines that the Gods don't happen all at once. Between the two series there is a distinct transition from the oft mentioned Gilgaol (whether by lieu of our perspective in PoN) to Yatwer in this series. At the moment I'm consider that Kel is a broken vessel and one of the Gods is trying to push some influence on the Inside by giving the impression they are Sammy

[citizensnips]

Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

Tell me, why couldn't the Consult conquer Sarkapus? The chorae hoard? Is this why Kellhus hand is salting when he meets Sorweel?

Yeah, we've talked about it before and the two places spared the Apocalypse were Sakarpus and Atrithau.

Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard and Atrithau is on Anarcane Ground.  My speculation was that the No-God could be blind to these places, because of this.  An alternative theory could be that without being able to use sorcery, it was not worth the effort for the Consult to take these places.

Both seem pretty plausible.  Kellhus demonstates that neither of these things effect him particularly (but yeah, he probably is salting from all the Chorae that are around but more probably Sorweel's).

I can't remember where this came from, but wasn't one of the books of the Tractate devoted to something along the lines of "the strange story of how Sakarpus survived the Apocalypse"?

Am I the only one who thinks of her name as Theliopia?  I know it's wrong, but it has a better ring to it to me.  Anyway, she is probably my favorite of all Kellhus' kids, Inrilatas aside.  She is weird and creepy, but like my enjoyment of Aurang, she never pulls punches.  Just the facts mam, just the facts.

Dude, I just now realized there's no i at the end of her name reading that. Also, I wonder where her name comes from? All the rest of the kids seem to have familial or historical based names.

[H]

When the grimaced, their blank and beautiful faces were clenched like crumpled silk, becoming expressions of ancient and inbred men

I can't even recall why, but after my first reading I was left with the impression that the Sranc might not have originally be a product of the Techne. This phrase just reminded me of it. Maybe more evidence will arise to persuade me I'm not completely off on this one. I doubt it though

I'm not sure I'll really buy that.  We know that the Sranc spontaneously came out of the Ark, at the Black Furnace Plain, after the Second Watch.  Chances are good that most of the Second Watch was spent creating the design that would become Sranc.  Although, if you are implying that they were more bread then created, I could sort of buy in to that, but I still would think that the Tekne was involved somehow.

I thought I'd weigh in with a few more details to obfuscate everyone's reading a little more.

"Veteran," the traveller said, bowing his head in due respect....
"How did you find us?" the man asked in his native tongue....
The traveller did not care. Men prized what they would.
"We find everyone."

Sarl seems to be older than the Captain by my interpretation, likely making him a Veteran as well. I thought it worth noting that the traveller speaks Ainoni. I feel like this wouldn't be mentioned if the shift in language were not meant to signify something; perhaps a fluency for language in this case? Lastly, the traveller muses "Men" as something different from himself.

I like that, good catch.  I am feeling like it is more and more probable that it was Sarl.

I'm still holding my verdict on the voice. I can't recall quite where (I'll try to dredge it up later), but there is a comment along the lines that the Gods don't happen all at once. Between the two series there is a distinct transition from the oft mentioned Gilgaol (whether by lieu of our perspective in PoN) to Yatwer in this series. At the moment I'm consider that Kel is a broken vessel and one of the Gods is trying to push some influence on the Inside by giving the impression they are Sammy

I think it's plausible that the voice is a god that gained influence when the twins were split, somehow.

I can't remember where this came from, but wasn't one of the books of the Tractate devoted to something along the lines of "the strange story of how Sakarpus survived the Apocalypse"?

It's the Saga, but yes:

“The Annal Sakarpa,” or “The Refugee’s Song” as it is sometimes called, the strange account of the city of Sakarpus during the Apocalypse.

I would love if Bakker ever wrote something like the Sagas or the Isûphiryas as Atrocity Tales, so we could learn more about them.

Dude, I just now realized there's no i at the end of her name reading that. Also, I wonder where her name comes from? All the rest of the kids seem to have familial or historical based names.

It's a good question, one I never really found a good answer too.  Once upon a time, I came up with the following while trying to break the name apart:

In the Sepher Yetzirah, Samael or Satan is also called Theli, (Hebrew) meaning The Dragon. This is the initiatory force of darkness, wherein the Fallen Angel, Ahriman, or Satan enters the coils of Leviathan to empower and exist as an immortal spirit, although as a Druj or Lie, changes continually which can be compared to the symbolism of the motion of the serpent.

The mystery of Theli as the Dragon is found in taking away merely one Hebraic letter, Th being Tau,

which adds to 400 which leaves LI which equals 40 being Mem, referring to Water. To enter the Coils of Leviathan, the possibility of spiritual immortality and the mastery of the flesh while living, calls to the distinction between mere ‘ritualism’ and actual “Adepthood” by entering the Waters of the Subconscious. Leviathan is an essential aspect of initiation, until the Spirit enters the coils of Leviathan, then the Dragon awakens completely. The Grimoire of Awakening is found in these very pages, the Qlippoth itself.

Theli:

(Or ThLi, Thele, Teli, TLI, Tali) is the name of the great fish-like dragon according to the Sefer Yetzirah of Hebrew mythology. It is said to hold its tail in its mouth, and it is constantly seeking a way to gain entry into heaven. His whole body envelopes the universe. This Serpent sounds similar to the Ouroboros. (See also under "O").

Theliopa as the Savior?