[TGO SPOILERS] Momemn

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Blackstone

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« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2016, 03:53:06 pm »

While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Wow! I totally missed that. I'd guess one of the two:
1) Samarmas can take control, at least to some degree, of the body they share and hurt Kelmomas--which would appear to be self-hurt from the outside. The problem I see with this is that Kel experiences it as a bite on the neck, which isn't impossible, and I don't think Kel would interpret a scratch (which is possible)) as a bite...

Which leads to 2) perhaps this is some manifestation of Ajokli, in which case, the voice Kel hears is actually Ajokli. But IIRC he has been hearing the voice since long before the sacrificed the beetle.

As it's written though, I don't see where Esmenet is, except under the falling vault.  Granted, we don't see her after it's said that Kel shouts to them and Kellhus takes a step, but that is all we get, except seeing Kellhus walking alone toward the throne.  It's said the vault falls where he was, which would be where Esmenet was too, but again, it is unclear where she was at that point.
I totally agree. But it makes more sense for the story arc for them to meet up again at some point.
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profgrape

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« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2016, 04:01:01 pm »
While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

I've gone back and forth.  Currently, I'm leaning toward the former.  It seems like with Kelmomas, we're getting a POV from a Dunyain "defective"; he has the Strength but also suffers from mental illness.  I suspect that Kellhus would have done away with the kid had he noticed what was happen.  Or maybe he did but didn't act because of Esme.

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« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2016, 03:24:42 am »
To be clear, when I said 'retrieve his little monster' I meant Kelmomas.

I thought you were clear :).


While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Wow! I totally missed that. I'd guess one of the two:
1) Samarmas can take control, at least to some degree, of the body they share and hurt Kelmomas--which would appear to be self-hurt from the outside. The problem I see with this is that Kel experiences it as a bite on the neck, which isn't impossible, and I don't think Kel would interpret a scratch (which is possible)) as a bite...

Which leads to 2) perhaps this is some manifestation of Ajokli, in which case, the voice Kel hears is actually Ajokli. But IIRC he has been hearing the voice since long before the sacrificed the beetle.

As it's written though, I don't see where Esmenet is, except under the falling vault.  Granted, we don't see her after it's said that Kel shouts to them and Kellhus takes a step, but that is all we get, except seeing Kellhus walking alone toward the throne.  It's said the vault falls where he was, which would be where Esmenet was too, but again, it is unclear where she was at that point.
I totally agree. But it makes more sense for the story arc for them to meet up again at some point.

While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

I've gone back and forth.  Currently, I'm leaning toward the former.  It seems like with Kelmomas, we're getting a POV from a Dunyain "defective"; he has the Strength but also suffers from mental illness.  I suspect that Kellhus would have done away with the kid had he noticed what was happen.  Or maybe he did but didn't act because of Esme.

Yeah, Som, I share your intrigue here.

I don't have any decent rationale for the biting though...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 07:27:19 pm by Madness »
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Wic

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« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2016, 03:37:10 am »
Fun little aside as I was rummaging through WLW, from chapter 5:
Quote from: Theliopa
I'm not sure surprise-surprise is a passion I can feel, Mother.
TGO, chapter 16, emphasis mine:
Quote
Theliopa stumbled, looked up in pallid alarm, then vanished in slumping shadows of stone brick debris.
A part of me hopes that deep down, she was pleased to put that question to rest.

Blackstone

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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2016, 05:11:14 pm »
Fun little aside as I was rummaging through WLW, from chapter 5:
Quote from: Theliopa
I'm not sure surprise-surprise is a passion I can feel, Mother.
TGO, chapter 16, emphasis mine:
Quote
Theliopa stumbled, looked up in pallid alarm, then vanished in slumping shadows of stone brick debris.
A part of me hopes that deep down, she was pleased to put that question to rest.
Poor Theli.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Walter

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« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2016, 08:14:14 pm »
"Just someone who was hear when it happened."

-shudder.

locke

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« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2016, 08:29:18 am »
it's 1:29am, I haven't the time to read the whole thread yet.

Kellhus v Meppa was pretty awesome.

But there's a niggling thing about it I don't like.

It feels like fan-service.

I wonder if in an earlier draft Esmenet really did kill Meppa.

But that agency was taken away from her to give fans more Kellhus kicking ass moments? To forestall decades of "who wins in a fight type debates."

I got a little bit of the same vibe off the clumsy line of Kellhus thinking, "I'm more powerful than Titirga." It sounds more like answering fan questions than a natural thought progression.

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« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2016, 11:35:28 am »
It feels like fan-service.

I'm interested in your thoughts rereading the thread, locke. The consensus and debate seem to revolve around why did Kellhus keep Meppa around at all, despite the limited screen-time of Fanayal, Meppa, and Psatma in TAE, who are otherwise dead.

I got a little bit of the same vibe off the clumsy line of Kellhus thinking, "I'm more powerful than Titirga." It sounds more like answering fan questions than a natural thought progression.

Hmm...

It's an interesting crux. Bakker has... six or seven long time draft readers, one of whom I'm fairly sure has been Eichorn since TDTCB. I don't know how closely any of them pay attention to fan continuity - certainly not with the scrutiny that those debating online do.

I thought the whole draft was publishable and it's been really enlightening regarding my own (lack of) writing practice to perceive the differences between the draft and the ARC. Specifically, in that section of the draft, I found the limited peripheral reference to Titirga appealing, which is obviously more overt now. Probably, I would assume, that the other long-time draft readers or his agent made suggestions about that portion being vague to newcomers.

We're like "damn, you could have left that at one pronoun for that character, we have a story already" and newcomers are like "who the fuck is Titirga?" after a full two pages of exposition or whichever.
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locke

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« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2016, 05:01:59 am »
the halos are not sorcerous in nature.

If they were, Malowebi would not have noted that the halos are ABSENT any _mark_. A glamour produced by Kellhus would leave an obvious mark of sorcery giving the game away, for the same reason that skin spies are not glamoured and presumed to be the work of the cishaurim.

That probably indicates they are not the light of delusion.

Given the 1.4 iteration of the Celmomian prophecy in this book, the halos are probably divine in origin as they indicate that Kellhus is "god entangled" with the god that speaks in the vision (Ajokli, Gilgaol, or Tsurumah). This is why they are not marked. they're like sorweel's storks.

profgrape

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« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2016, 02:21:14 pm »
the halos are not sorcerous in nature.

If they were, Malowebi would not have noted that the halos are ABSENT any _mark_. A glamour produced by Kellhus would leave an obvious mark of sorcery giving the game away, for the same reason that skin spies are not glamoured and presumed to be the work of the cishaurim.

That probably indicates they are not the light of delusion.

Given the 1.4 iteration of the Celmomian prophecy in this book, the halos are probably divine in origin as they indicate that Kellhus is "god entangled" with the god that speaks in the vision (Ajokli, Gilgaol, or Tsurumah). This is why they are not marked. they're like sorweel's storks.

Love the term "god entangled", locke.  That state seems perplex Kellhus, even after years of pondering...

locke

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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2016, 04:37:12 pm »
the halos are not sorcerous in nature.

If they were, Malowebi would not have noted that the halos are ABSENT any _mark_. A glamour produced by Kellhus would leave an obvious mark of sorcery giving the game away, for the same reason that skin spies are not glamoured and presumed to be the work of the cishaurim.

That probably indicates they are not the light of delusion.

Given the 1.4 iteration of the Celmomian prophecy in this book, the halos are probably divine in origin as they indicate that Kellhus is "god entangled" with the god that speaks in the vision (Ajokli, Gilgaol, or Tsurumah). This is why they are not marked. they're like sorweel's storks.

Love the term "god entangled", locke.  That state seems perplex Kellhus, even after years of pondering...
straight out of the book, sorweel even has a new word for the phrase god entangled, but I couldn't remember it.

locke

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« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2016, 07:49:52 pm »
fuck me I think I figured out the haloed hands on the skin spy.

Kellhus is God entangled, which generates the halos.

The Gods cannot perceive the skin spies, unlike sranc which have no consciousness in their brains, the skin spies are "keepers of the inverse fire" and for unknown reasons this makes the gods blind to them.

But what happens when the Gods encounter a skin spy via the perception of other people they are not blind to?

The gods see the person the skin spy is imitating. The gods then automatically "fill in the blank" that the thing they cannot perceive but now perceive via someone they can perceive is in fact obviously of course the thing the person they perceive is perceiving.

In other words, because Serwe can see the-thing-called-kellhus, the gods can see it. The gods can't see it otherwise. But when the gods see the thing-called-kellhus via serwe they suffer an inner contradiction. They know they can perceive kellhus. they know serwe is currently perceiving him, and they know they cannot be wrong. So therefore of course the thing-called-kellhus must be kellhus.

And as a result, halos appear on the skin spy while it is being perceived by serwe, because of the limits of the gods comprehension and their inability to accept they may be in error.

so for a brief moment, the skin spy is also god entangled, as kellhus is, because the gods are idiots.

profgrape

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« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2016, 12:04:33 am »
Hot damn, Locke.  That is freaking brilliant.

The Gods can only see the work of the Consult via the belief-tainted perspectives of Men. 

Wic

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« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2016, 12:18:29 am »
Holy shit, locke.

ETA: Ok, so we have Serwe, who believes, even when it's a skinspy, and Malowebi, who (we assume) does not believe.

(also, does anyone know when Sorweel first sees them?  Because the halos aren't described the first time he encounters Kell.)

Taking in what locke said, what triggered this belief from the Outside? Serwe's pure innocence?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 12:55:24 am by Wic »

locke

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« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2016, 11:40:27 pm »
the gods can't conceive of skin spies existing, but can conceive of humans existing.

This is actually probably why skin spies were invented, not to spy on the mandate, but to give the consult agents invisible to the gods and thus be able to thwart the white luck and other manifestations of the will of the gods (or subvert or adopt it to their own ends).

***
speaking of, the interaction of Samarmus, Inrilitus, Maithanet, Kelmomas, Esmenet and Theliopa is crucial to crafting an outcome wherein the white luck warrior is "surprised" by Kelmomas, thus thwarting the White Luck's assassination of Kellhus.

Did Kellhus sacrifice three of his children, and craft Kelmomas into a monster in order to save Esmenet?