Poll

Provided there is more story coming, do you think there is a time skip forward of a few years, or do you think the story continues from the end of TUC

Story jumps forward a significant period of time
7 (46.7%)
Story continues from basically the end of TUC
8 (53.3%)

Total Members Voted: 15

[TUC SPOILERS] After this...

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2017, 04:35:44 pm »
I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.

In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.

We're on the same page. PoN seemed to make better use of its narrative arcs with an explosion of convergence both in each book and through to the end and final scene. TUC suffers from not having that same kind of coherence - little is done to make it all fit together in a satisfying way - at least compared to TTT.
I still loved TUC and I think it ended exactly as the story demanded, but there could have been better execution. Besides, I'm bias as well, been playing in this game too long to make objective judgments.

Wasn't that Bakker's point from the beginning?  The anti-trope fantasy epic?  There is no satisfying end.  Nothing is wrapped up neatly.  It's the anti-LotR.  Everything just falls apart.

That certainly seems to be the case.

That sounds like more of an excuse than anything else.
Yes, that is the point, but telling a story poorly was not.  That was still the point in PoN right? And if you ask me, that story ended up better than TAE.

Also, how deep do you want to go with that? Lets start down at the bottom of the rabbit hole instead of taking each step: Why write a story at all? The most anti-story would be no story at all.
If you're going to tell a story, tell it well.

Or not at all?  That could be said for probably 99% of everything ever written.  There's always some aspect that, as a reader, you wished was different or better.  Do I have criticisms?  Absolutely.  Do I think the story was written poorly?  No.  It's just my opinion, I guess, but that's all I have.
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Hiro

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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2017, 04:39:24 pm »
If you read bakker's other stuff, admittedly I can't handle his nonfiction, he seems to be always pressing upon the same points. I think that his fiction is mostly used as and exposé for his philosophy, and I think it does a marvelous job making clear what TPB makes entirely unapproachable. I'm hoping for a short afterward essay when TDTSNBN concludes, explaining how it all ties together (much like at the end of his short story Crash Space).

Fair enough Wilshire. I think the point of an anti-story is not so much in ultimately not writing it, but rather reacting to said fantasy tropes.

While I sympathize with the worries that TUC wrought, I can also say that I felt the power of fiction, of storytelling coming through loud and clear. Thinking and feeling while reading it: 'wow, that language can *do* this...' I'd rather read something like this, with a ton of ambition, while not perfect, than standard rehearsals of tropes or timid ones.

Besides the execution, there is something here, I mean the unnamed 3rd series. I can imagine that this anti-story or anti-trope did bring Bakker to a place where a vital question arose:

Whither humanity?

Which could mean an exploration of the search for meaning in a seemingly hostile universe, an 'enhanced' version of our own predicament. That's my wish for the continuation of this saga.

Don't get me wrong, something about TSA and the story we've got is compelling and glorious. TUC was a great book by itself as-is.
Many of these complaints, I think, stem from Bakker's own idiosyncrasies - like spending 20 years implying TUC was the end when really its at best 2/3s of the way there. His unwillingness to interact with his readers in a way that the modern world simply demands. Etc. etc.

The greater exploration of the mind, the self, the universe, religion, society, etc., is somewhere at the heart of the story and I think that's where its greater importance lies. Taking a step closer though, its still a unique story, thats done extremely well (if you're asking me ;) ).

After all, this is the TSA forum.  ;D
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2017, 01:14:38 pm »
I think there will be a gap between TAE and the final series, but likely not as large as the the one between PON and TAE.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Walter

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« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2017, 01:49:13 pm »
You think Mimara's kid and the Crab-Hand will be adults in the next series, or not so much?

Wilshire

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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2017, 01:54:45 pm »
You think Mimara's kid and the Crab-Hand will be adults in the next series, or not so much?

That's my biggest conflict with a time jump. Most of the main characters are old. Isn't akka like 70? I think Cnaiur was >70, Kellhus was in his 50's or 60's, so is esmenet. Skip forward just another 10 years and those guys, especially Akka, will be a bit to old to be slogging through the world (already felt that with Akka in WLW).

On the other hand, Crabicus, Akka Jr., Kelmomas, Moe Jr, even Mimara, are young enough that a solid 20 year jump would make for an interesting band of new characters. Without the jump, especially the first few I mentioned, those players are pretty young and don't seem to fit well into the story.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2017, 03:13:55 pm »
You think Mimara's kid and the Crab-Hand will be adults in the next series, or not so much?

I keep going back and forth on that, to be honest. Maybe it would work with "Akka Jr.", the youngest of them, as a teenager (we had some POVs in this age range in TAE, after all), maybe not...

We don't know how old the Boy/Crab-Hand is, but probably around Kelmomas' age, as it has been said. He wouldn't need a 20-year timeskip to be an adult in the next series.
"Akka Jr." being just born at the end of TUC would necessitate a longer timeskip, but on the other hand, a 20+ year-long one would mean Akka would have likely died in the meantime (he was 47 in PON, so would be in his late 60s during TUC), so it depends if Bakker wants to keep him around (as a Seswatha-type figure) or only in flashbacks/memories. Esmenet is younger (31 in PON, so it's unlikely she'd have died of old age after a 20-year gap, she'd be in her 70s).



That's my biggest conflict with a time jump. Most of the main characters are old. Isn't akka like 70? I think Cnaiur was >70, Kellhus was in his 50's or 60's, so is esmenet. Skip forward just another 10 years and those guys, especially Akka, will be a bit to old to be slogging through the world (already felt that with Akka in WLW).

On the other hand, Crabicus, Akka Jr., Kelmomas, Moe Jr, even Mimara, are young enough that a solid 20 year jump would make for an interesting band of new characters. Without the jump, especially the first few I mentioned, those players are pretty young and don't seem to fit well into the story.

Exactly, Akka is 47 and Cnaïur 45 in PON if I remember correctly, and if those ages were given for the beginning of that series (4109), that would make them 70 and 68 in TUC. I personally think Cnaïur is dead (at least as Cnaïur, he might come back as a Ciphrang or something), but a 90-year old Akka might not be able to do much (if he's even still alive by then). Unless the qirri had lifespan-prolonging effects as chanv did, as it was pointed out in the TSA podcast, Iyokus was still active at 120+ years old.
Esmenet isn't as old as Akka or Cnaïur as I said above (31 in PON), so it'd still be believable to have her around after 20 years.
Mimara was born in 4095 as per the TTT glossary (I always thought Bakker made her a bit too old, but that's just my opinion) and would be 57 20 years post-TUC, so it also works for her.
Moënghus was born in (late) 4111, so he'd be in his early 40s. Kelmomas would be 28 (not that it matters much as the No-God). The Boy would be around that same age.
So the main reason you'd need a 20 year time jump (or longer) would be for the newborn "Akka Jr.", a shorter one (15 years? 10?) could work for the others, even the Boy. But like I said above, maybe it would work to have him as a teenager? Sorweel was 16 in this series, Serwa not much older, and they still had important roles to play.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2017, 03:24:28 pm »
Thanks for that breakdown ThoughtsOfThelli, very helpful.

Yeah in that case, 20 years seems reasonable, and its the timeframe I'd expect.
Akka starting a heavy chanv addiction to sate his desire for qirri could easily prolong him to 120+. I'd be OK with a 90+ year old Akka as long as he's doing mostly sitting and flying (also creates a nice thematic juxtoposition of Akka becoming Iyokus - who he likely hates more than anyone except maybe Kelhus). Slogging back through the mop may be a bit too much, he's no Cleric, but its at least not without precedence in the story

.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2017, 03:36:38 pm »
Thanks for that breakdown ThoughtsOfThelli, very helpful.

You're welcome, ages and timelines are something that interests me, so I tend to remember. :)


Yeah in that case, 20 years seems reasonable, and its the timeframe I'd expect.
Akka starting a heavy chanv addiction to sate his desire for qirri could easily prolong him to 120+. I'd be OK with a 90+ year old Akka as long as he's doing mostly sitting and flying (also creates a nice thematic juxtoposition of Akka becoming Iyokus - who he likely hates more than anyone except maybe Kelhus). Slogging back through the mop may be a bit too much, he's no Cleric, but its at least not without precedence in the story.

I wonder if he does manage to get access to chanv in a now-apocalyptic chaotic world, but it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility - maybe we'll finally find out where chanv comes from?
Interesting point with Akka becoming more like Iyokus, I hadn't thought of that much besides the precedent for living past 100 while being fairly active. I hope this is the case now, I would like very much for Akka to still be around for the last series.

Now I also wonder how long a chanv user can live barring other causes of death, Iyokus really seemed like he could have easily lasted several more decades.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Walter

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« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2017, 05:22:24 pm »
The big question is how on earth Earwa survives 20 more years.

Like, I want there to be a time skip, but it really seems like the obvious move for the No-God is to just roll down on the 3 Seas and kill everyone before a new generation of the Few/soldiers can be born.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2017, 05:37:01 pm »
The big question is how on earth Earwa survives 20 more years.

Like, I want there to be a time skip, but it really seems like the obvious move for the No-God is to just roll down on the 3 Seas and kill everyone before a new generation of the Few/soldiers can be born.

Under Resumption, literally there will be no new generation born.  Too late for that already.
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Walter

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« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2017, 05:48:51 pm »
I was meaning more that the children of the present would grow up to be useful vs. the Consult.  Like, the supply of new soldiers/magicians won't dry up for ten 15 or so years.

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2017, 06:02:33 pm »
Another possibility is that the new series itself will span a long amount of time, without a time jump between TAE and the new series.

Wilshire

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« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2017, 08:23:54 pm »
I was meaning more that the children of the present would grow up to be useful vs. the Consult.  Like, the supply of new soldiers/magicians won't dry up for ten 15 or so years.

Took a long time for the North and the Three Seas to fall the last time the no god walked, though I don't think it was 20 years.

That said, presumably Zeum is the main opponent here since its been untouched by the happenings of the last 30 years. Kellhus rebuilt the mountain crossing fortress, and it lies on the other side of a desert. It may take an extraordinary amount of time to break into that half of the continent. Then there's still all that land to cross before whatever capital city itself.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2017, 09:10:30 pm »
I think the No-God was 'alive' for 11 years the first time.
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2017, 07:07:43 pm »
I think the No-God was 'alive' for 11 years the first time.

There is surely less resistance this time though, as the North no longer exists as an opponent for the No-God and is now just distance to be crossed.  OK, Atrithau and Sakarpus are still there, but I don't see them as significant as Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard looted by the Ordeal, and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery. 
The Three Seas can probably raise one or more significantly large armies, given its high population, but most of its military leadership has just been obliterated at Golgotterath, as has most if not all of the sorcerous schools.  Additionally the administrative centre of the Empire has been devastated by earthquake and flood.  Soldiers have to be trained, sorcerors have to be taught, they all have to be supplied.
Which leaves us with Zeum (we don't know what their military capabilities are)
and the Scylvendi
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.