[TUC Spoilers] Ishual

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TheCulminatingApe

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« on: July 16, 2017, 07:58:16 pm »
Has anybody read the Glossary entry for Engus?  The mention of a cursed valley in the Demua Mountains, and piles of Sranc bones, seems to suggest that there was something 'wrong' with Ishual, long before the Dunyain got there. 
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

H

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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 10:56:17 am »
Has anybody read the Glossary entry for Engus?  The mention of a cursed valley in the Demua Mountains, and piles of Sranc bones, seems to suggest that there was something 'wrong' with Ishual, long before the Dunyain got there. 

While interesting, I still contend that Ishuäl, with it's Ihrimsû name and decidedly Nonman architecture, predates any humans at all though.  I think the chances are that Celmomas somehow found a place the Nonmen had forgotten and made it his own.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 02:18:41 pm »
Has anybody read the Glossary entry for Engus?  The mention of a cursed valley in the Demua Mountains, and piles of Sranc bones, seems to suggest that there was something 'wrong' with Ishual, long before the Dunyain got there. 

While interesting, I still contend that Ishuäl, with it's Ihrimsû name and decidedly Nonman architecture, predates any humans at all though.  I think the chances are that Celmomas somehow found a place the Nonmen had forgotten and made it his own.

Pretty difficult to build a castle in the mountain thousands of miles away from any quarry/mine and trade routes to get to towns with access to the required tools and master craftsman needed to build such a place. On top of that, doing it all in secret without a soul knowing about it. I don't think so. Yeah, he could have made a chain gang of prisoners or whoever and just murdered them all once it was finished... but if you're talking about the entire construction of a citadel - thats a huge engineering undertaking and would involves a huge number of important people well beyond laborers. Killing off all of them would have been pretty devastating to the intellectual capacity of the entire three seas, let alone covering it all up.

 And back to logistics, all that hewn stone, slogged across still sranc infested forests in secret? Keeping the sranc from eating all the workers on site? Celmomas would have had to secretly send an entire army up there to protect them, and again, kill them on once finished.



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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 07:58:16 pm »
Then why have the entry for Engus?  It is unbelievably obscure, and doesn't seem to relate to anything else at all.  It has no bearing on the wider history of the North or the build-up to the First Apocalypse.

We don't know how secret Ishual was - the Dunyain managed to find it, and must surely have gone looking for it.  I would suggest that the people who did know either died in the Apocalypse, or died of plague afterwards.
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

Walter

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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2017, 08:05:22 pm »
This might be another case of overestimating the Consult's intelligence.

Like, they live in the Ark and are surrounded by Sranc.  They don't have skin spies back in the past.  So if a mighty king sends out some guys to build a castle and tells everyone that it is a secret...maybe they just don't hear about it?  Like, every person in town may know, but the Consult as it was back then might not have had any spies.  Operation SEKRIT CASTLE might have succeeded just because nobody was looking.

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2017, 08:09:21 pm »
But the Mandate didn't know about it, which I find very strange, considering they are basically the foremost proprietors of history in TTS. No text, anywhere, suggesting that Ishual exists, not even the name, other than on a single map sealed away in a super vault. So not only did the Consult not know about it, but no written historical text of any kind survived that had its name even written.

I will agree that the Dunyain stumbling upon it by accident seems contrived, and I suspect that there are a lot of things about the creation of the Dunyain that we don't know about.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 04:29:34 pm »
Then why have the entry for Engus?  It is unbelievably obscure, and doesn't seem to relate to anything else at all.  It has no bearing on the wider history of the North or the build-up to the First Apocalypse.

We don't know how secret Ishual was - the Dunyain managed to find it, and must surely have gone looking for it.  I would suggest that the people who did know either died in the Apocalypse, or died of plague afterwards.

I had been thinking about this, and when I went and looked back, the story of Engûs was briefly mentioned in TGO. This is likely the reason why it is in the TUC glossary, and not for reasons of foreshadowing.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 04:37:43 pm »
Has anybody read the Glossary entry for Engus?  The mention of a cursed valley in the Demua Mountains, and piles of Sranc bones, seems to suggest that there was something 'wrong' with Ishual, long before the Dunyain got there. 

To go back to your original question:  I honestly think it's a mistake.  The Demua mountains are all the way across the Istyuli Plains and the Aumris River valley away from Meorn and Sakarpus.  It's probably meant to be the Osthwai Mountains or Hethanta Mountains, not Demua.  Doesn't make much sense for the Sakarpi to have 'legends' of something so far away from themselves.  Things far away tend to lose their potency, so something close seems more likely.  Which is why I thinks it's just a mistake. (shrugs)
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CondYoke

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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 05:03:05 pm »
But the Mandate didn't know about it, which I find very strange, considering they are basically the foremost proprietors of history in TTS. No text, anywhere, suggesting that Ishual exists, not even the name, other than on a single map sealed away in a super vault. So not only did the Consult not know about it, but no written historical text of any kind survived that had its name even written.

I will agree that the Dunyain stumbling upon it by accident seems contrived, and I suspect that there are a lot of things about the creation of the Dunyain that we don't know about.

Indeed, because, according the Akka's dreams, seswatha did know about Ishual, but the rest of the mandate do not have that dream, just Akka.

Woden

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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 05:07:09 pm »
Has anybody read the Glossary entry for Engus?  The mention of a cursed valley in the Demua Mountains, and piles of Sranc bones, seems to suggest that there was something 'wrong' with Ishual, long before the Dunyain got there. 

To go back to your original question:  I honestly think it's a mistake.  The Demua mountains are all the way across the Istyuli Plains and the Aumris River valley away from Meorn and Sakarpus.  It's probably meant to be the Osthwai Mountains or Hethanta Mountains, not Demua.  Doesn't make much sense for the Sakarpi to have 'legends' of something so far away from themselves.  Things far away tend to lose their potency, so something close seems more likely.  Which is why I thinks it's just a mistake. (shrugs)

I thought the same reading it, but who knows. After the end of TUC I live in the darkness (that comes before).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 05:12:03 pm by Woden »
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CondYoke

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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2017, 12:30:34 am »
I thought the same reading it, but who knows. After the end of TUC I live in the darkness (that comes before).

So,you're in the darkness that comes after (reading TUC), right?   ;) me too.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tags.]
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 07:16:48 pm by Madness »

Woden

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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 06:13:54 am »
Totally in the darkness. I'm not dunyain, I can't foresee this end, lol.
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