[TUC Spoilers] Kelmomas, Nau-Cayuti and causality

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obstinate

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« on: July 30, 2017, 11:54:00 am »
Is Kelmomas the No God because he is a twin souled sociopath? Or is he a twin souled sociopath because he is the No God? Was Nau-Cayuti the No God because of some fact of Anusumbrior genetics, or merely because Kelmomas eventually would be?

Is Kelmomas invisible to the gods because he is the No-God? Or is he the No-God because he's invisible to the gods?

Depending on the direction of the arrow of causality, it's interesting to note that Kelmomas was always doomed to become the No-God. If he is invisible to the gods because he is the No-God, then he was necessarily the No-God. If he wasn't, then the White Luck would have killed Kellhus several different times.

Is Kellhus unable to anticipate Kelmomas in the Golden Room because he's the No-God, or because it's too improbable?

I'm saddened by the way these books ended. I mean, I'm not disappointed. The ending is classic Bakker and jives very well with my expectations, which is a point I intend to make in another thread. (Only I thought that Kellhus would become the No-God. Close!) It's fitting that my most-hated character would become the engine of the Great Ordeal's destruction, and likely that of the world. But I wanted better for my sweet Drusases and Mimaras of the world.

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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 03:23:57 pm »
But I wanted better for my sweet Drusases and Mimaras of the world.

I'm sure they or others like them will continue to strive against their monstrous circumstances.

EDIT: Welcome back, obstinate.
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Dunkelheit

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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 05:49:26 pm »
I think being a sociopath definitely has something to do with it. We saw that Nau-Cayuti didn't feel fear, right?

I'm not so sure Kelmomas actually has two souls though, or whether he just believes he does. The fact that he doesn't notice that he and his alter constantly change places is bisarr. And Kellhus says that he isn't sure if there is even someone to kill when referring to Kelmomas, so I don't think we can be sure either. I would posit an alternative interpretation: That Kelmomas actually has no soul.

MSJ

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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 06:17:34 pm »
Quote from:  Dunkeheilt
I'm not so sure Kelmomas actually has two souls though, or whether he just believes he does.

I'd say the is more than sufficient evidence that Kel has two souls. Plus, with him being the namesake to Celmommas, its pretty much a given.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 06:21:27 pm »
I'd say the is more than sufficient evidence that Kel has two souls. Plus, with him being the namesake to Celmommas, its pretty much a given.

How so?

MSJ

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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 06:37:11 pm »
Well all of the evidence in TJE and TWLW. And, the two-soul thing has been made into a big deal in this series. I just dont see why it would be a red-herring. I mean i can set here and take all day and quote all the evidence, but you read the books too. I think its goes without question that Kel is two-souled.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2017, 06:51:14 pm »
Are you referring to the parts with Kelmomas point of view? i agree that it really seems like he has two souls when viewing things form his perspective, but the revelation that they change places threw a big monkey wrench in that (seemingly obvious) interpretation for me. If they are really two people, how could they not keep each other apart?

I think Kelmomas two souls are more like the two metaphorical souls Serwa talks about.: An Anasûrimbor is born with two souls, one that acts and one that observes. I think kelmomas condition is what happens when you don't have an actual soul to unify these two parts.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 07:59:01 pm by Dunkelheit »

Yellow

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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 07:44:49 pm »
Didn't RSB say in the q&a it was more to do with a lack of identity rather than a surfeit?
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2017, 08:10:41 pm »
Didn't RSB say in the q&a it was more to do with a lack of identity rather than a surfeit?
Yeah, a soul lacking an identity. Kellhus said something about how the darkness ruled him. Maybe that's it? Maybe Kel's soul is so damaged that he in some way has become the darkness before him, collapsing subject and object, becoming the No-God.

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 09:36:49 pm »
I think you inserted the "soul" part yourself. Here is the quote (in context).

edit: Oh, and the entire time I thought Kelmomas was supposed to be twin-souled, was he actually meant to represent non-conscious human thought via bicameralism?

Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.

Woden

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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 09:40:55 pm »
I think that Cel has two souls but maybe not and he's just crazy as fuck and has multiple personality like Gollum/Smeagol.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2017, 01:48:01 am »
I think you inserted the "soul" part yourself. Here is the quote (in context).

edit: Oh, and the entire time I thought Kelmomas was supposed to be twin-souled, was he actually meant to represent non-conscious human thought via bicameralism?

Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.
He has to have a soul though, since the carapace needs a soul to revive the No-God AFAIK.

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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2017, 02:11:27 am »
Yeah he will have a soul that's why he can see sorcery and the mark. He is one of the Few as well.

I'll have to re-read but i got the idea from Kellhus when he retrieved Proyas for a bit and gave him an info-dump. That actions outside everything, change the whole in a way everyone inside is unaware if, will go get the quote.

Blackstone

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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2017, 02:24:25 am »
Quote from:  Dunkeheilt
I'm not so sure Kelmomas actually has two souls though, or whether he just believes he does.

I'd say the is more than sufficient evidence that Kel has two souls. Plus, with him being the namesake to Celmommas, its pretty much a given.

I agree. It seems a given that Kel has two souls.

Didn't RSB say in the q&a it was more to do with a lack of identity rather than a surfeit?
Yeah, a soul lacking an identity. Kellhus said something about how the darkness ruled him. Maybe that's it? Maybe Kel's soul is so damaged that he in some way has become the darkness before him, collapsing subject and object, becoming the No-God.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with him becoming the No-god. My interpretation was that it was the actual magnitude of the soul that animated the carapace. Nau-Cayuti was a soul of great magnitude, and he animated the carapace. If I recall, there was nothing indicating that NC was twin souled. I assumed the same of Kelmomas (or if it had come to it, Kellhus).
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Dunkelheit

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« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2017, 07:39:38 am »
themerchant, that's true. I kind of forgot that he is one of the few. So yes, he must have a soul.