[TUC Spoilers] Kelmomas, Nau-Cayuti and causality

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2017, 05:49:56 pm »
Yeah he will have a soul that's why he can see sorcery and the mark. He is one of the Few as well.

I've been wondering about Kelmomas being one of the Few and twin-souled after I went and reread TUC. What if Samarmas is one of the Few but Kelmomas isn't? They apparently continually switch places as the "dominant" soul in the body. You'd think Kellhus and/or Serwa would have noticed/mentioned the fact that Kelmomas was of the Few, but the constant switch (and Kellhus and Serwa not being around Kelmomas very often) could explain that.
I don't know if this would work with them being identical twins and all, but this is not real world genetics we're talking about. It might be possible that, when Hagitatas separated Kelmomas and Samarmas, the incomplete separation of souls (I'm presuming it was incomplete because Samarmas was left mentally handicapped rather than brain dead or something of the sort) led to Kelmomas also becoming one of the Few in an incomplete way.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2017, 09:44:05 pm »
Reminds me of that weird case of a siamese twin pair conjoined at the head that share a good bit of brain. Whenever one says "I" they're referring to the other twin, not themselves. I wonder how long it took their caretakers to figure that out.

Living like he's been living, how could he develop a conventional sense of identity?

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 03:45:17 pm »
Yeah he will have a soul that's why he can see sorcery and the mark. He is one of the Few as well.
You'd think Kellhus and/or Serwa would have noticed/mentioned the fact that Kelmomas was of the Few, but the constant switch (and Kellhus and Serwa not being around Kelmomas very often) could explain that.
You aren't marked until you perform sorcery. There is no way to tell until then. Kelmomas - maybe because of the switching - was good at hiding things. Being of the Few was just one more of these things, though it would be no easier to notice than his other mental conditions.
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geoffrobro

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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2018, 05:14:55 pm »
Sorry if this has been discussed (I haven't fully read the thread). Is there a connection between why Sorcerers aren't allowed to have families and the no-God. As far as I know only 3 sorcerers have had children. Ses, kellhus, and akka.
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 09:06:55 pm »
Well, I believe that its just not allowed. In sure there are a ton of sorcerer baby Bastards. But, they are not allowed to marry, so if they have children they are not legitimate.

I'm interested in why you think it would have a connection to the No-God, though. What made you come up with that connection?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2018, 02:32:11 pm »
Seems to me that assuming Seswatha had a son, andthat it was NC, and that there are only 3 schoolmen in history to have sons, is kind of a big stretch.
Certainly, with all the hundreds of thousands of, or millions, of people the Consult fed into the Golden Room, they would have encountered at least one other Son-Of-A-Schoolman.

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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2018, 03:48:44 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Seems to me that assuming Seswatha had a son, andthat it was NC, and that there are only 3 schoolmen in history to have sons, is kind of a big stretch.


Certainly, with all the hundreds of thousands of, or millions, of people the Consult fed into the Golden Room, they would have encountered at least one other Son-Of-A-Schoolman.

Yea, there are definitely bastard schoolmen babies running around Earwa. You can make marriage against the law for them, but not sex. And, I'm sure they fathered children. But, we just don't see it, and why should we? Its of no importance to the series.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2018, 05:00:53 pm »
Yeah he will have a soul that's why he can see sorcery and the mark. He is one of the Few as well.
You'd think Kellhus and/or Serwa would have noticed/mentioned the fact that Kelmomas was of the Few, but the constant switch (and Kellhus and Serwa not being around Kelmomas very often) could explain that.
You aren't marked until you perform sorcery. There is no way to tell until then. Kelmomas - maybe because of the switching - was good at hiding things. Being of the Few was just one more of these things, though it would be no easier to notice than his other mental conditions.

Okay, then how did Serwa get identified as one of the Few as a three-year-old? Because I might be a tad confused about that. Was she actually attempting to perform sorcery at that age? Did someone think to check using the Wathi Doll or a similar method like Akka did with Kellhus?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2018, 05:39:56 pm »
Tests can be done, like the Wathi Doll test that Akka used to test Kellhus. That's a great example because it shows that Akka couldn't identify Kellhus as being of the Few the entire time they were together, and it shows that sorcery can be done without marking an individual (albeit extremely minor).

I'm sure the Mandate had several such tests, and Kellhus could probably devise his own in the event that a child of 3 years old couldn't be coerced into saying the name of a Wathi Doll :) .

Kellmomas was never tested because Kellhus just didn't care at that point. You might also argue that he didn't test on purpose so that he wouldn't have to bother Esmenet - such a loving husband.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2018, 05:40:19 pm »
Okay, then how did Serwa get identified as one of the Few as a three-year-old? Because I might be a tad confused about that. Was she actually attempting to perform sorcery at that age? Did someone think to check using the Wathi Doll or a similar method like Akka did with Kellhus?
She might have indicated to someone that she can see the Mark, while Kelmomas never did.

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2018, 05:47:24 pm »
That's a great point. Akka, when his Eyes Opened, he saw the world in aching clarity, full of magnificent beauty. When he sees people marked, he sees a wounded world, repulsion at the scars upon reality.

A child, unable to speak but able to See, might cry hysterically when held by such a scarred monster.
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« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2018, 02:15:25 pm »
Okay, then how did Serwa get identified as one of the Few as a three-year-old? Because I might be a tad confused about that. Was she actually attempting to perform sorcery at that age? Did someone think to check using the Wathi Doll or a similar method like Akka did with Kellhus?

As we've surmised elsewhere, Achamian vaguely refers to a test done by the Mandate Pederisk which identifies children Few. It very well might be the Wathi Doll test but it could be as simple as putting three objects in front of a child and asking them to pick out the "different" (Marked) one.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2018, 03:36:07 pm »
Tests can be done, like the Wathi Doll test that Akka used to test Kellhus. That's a great example because it shows that Akka couldn't identify Kellhus as being of the Few the entire time they were together, and it shows that sorcery can be done without marking an individual (albeit extremely minor).

I'm sure the Mandate had several such tests, and Kellhus could probably devise his own in the event that a child of 3 years old couldn't be coerced into saying the name of a Wathi Doll :) .

Kellmomas was never tested because Kellhus just didn't care at that point. You might also argue that he didn't test on purpose so that he wouldn't have to bother Esmenet - such a loving husband.

I suppose that is the most likely possibility, then. :)


She might have indicated to someone that she can see the Mark, while Kelmomas never did.

Also a good point! It would be just like Kelmomas to keep that secret piece of knowledge to himself... And, like Wilshire said, it was not like Kellhus cared much at that point.


That's a great point. Akka, when his Eyes Opened, he saw the world in aching clarity, full of magnificent beauty. When he sees people marked, he sees a wounded world, repulsion at the scars upon reality.

A child, unable to speak but able to See, might cry hysterically when held by such a scarred monster.

For some reason, I am extremely amused at the mental image of Kellhus noticing how little Serwa would have a terrified reaction anytime she saw him or someone else with the Mark and thinking "okay, there might be a pattern here"...


As we've surmised elsewhere, Achamian vaguely refers to a test done by the Mandate Pederisk which identifies children Few. It very well might be the Wathi Doll test but it could be as simple as putting three objects in front of a child and asking them to pick out the "different" (Marked) one.

I had completely forgotten about the test done by the Pederisk. You're right, that was most likely what they did, or something quite similar. Especially as that was already established as being specifically used for children (unlike the Wathi Doll?).
Though the children the Pederisk tested were usually older than Serwa, right? I seem to recall Achamian mentioning he was like eight or nine by the time he was identified as being of the few (might be misremembering, though).
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Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2018, 04:13:20 pm »
Akka wasn't born with the ability to see the Onta. Seems that its something that might occur quasi randomly in a person's early life. Seems unusual that Serwe had it at the age of 3 and was identified immediately - that and her Dunyain-ness is what lead her to the heights she was able to reach at such a young age.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2018, 04:35:34 pm »
Akka wasn't born with the ability to see the Onta. Seems that its something that might occur quasi randomly in a person's early life. Seems unusual that Serwe had it at the age of 3 and was identified immediately - that and her Dunyain-ness is what lead her to the heights she was able to reach at such a young age.

I know he wasn't, but as it's unclear how early it can first manifest, I was basically musing on that.
But you're right, it's very likely that Serwa expressed that ability much earlier than would be the norm due to being half-Dûnyain. Eight-year-old Kelmomas (Samarmas?) being able to see the Onta is not out of the ordinary considering what we know from Akka, but then again, we can't know how long that had been going on.
Which just makes me wonder when Akka Jr. will express it...certainly not early enough for us to still see it in the series (that assuming he is of the Few, which seems very probable since both of his parents are).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)