[TUC spoilers] The visions - Not Ajokli?

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Yellow

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« on: August 06, 2017, 04:03:08 pm »
Guys, first up, I'm on holiday and on my phone so it's difficult to read the TWO PAGES of new content  :P So, if this is being discussed already then please somebody link me to it!

OK, from my read of the AMA, there were two direct questions regarding whether Ajokli was sending the visions. The first asked if it was Ajokli, and Bakker replied with "that would certainly seem to be a safe supposition". The second time asked if Ajokli had been talking to Kellhus since the Circumfix and the reply was "that which comes after determines that which comes before". Paraphrasing both times, sorry.

I note he does not say "yes" in either case.

I don't believe it's Ajokli at all. I'm not letting go of the Outside Kellhus theory unless it's prized from my child dead hands. Thoughts?
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Hiro

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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 05:04:17 pm »
Guys, first up, I'm on holiday and on my phone so it's difficult to read the TWO PAGES of new content  :P So, if this is being discussed already then please somebody link me to it!

OK, from my read of the AMA, there were two direct questions regarding whether Ajokli was sending the visions. The first asked if it was Ajokli, and Bakker replied with "that would certainly seem to be a safe supposition". The second time asked if Ajokli had been talking to Kellhus since the Circumfix and the reply was "that which comes after determines that which comes before". Paraphrasing both times, sorry.

I note he does not say "yes" in either case.

I don't believe it's Ajokli at all. I'm not letting go of the Outside Kellhus theory unless it's prized from my child dead hands. Thoughts?

Interesting. I read both those statements as confirmation that it *is* Ajokli.

- safe supposition ---> I take that as a gentle yes.

- that which comes after determines that which comes before ---> What comes after is Ajokli possessing Kellhus, what comes before is Ajokli sending Kellhus visions.
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Yellow

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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 05:06:22 pm »
I believe that's definitely what he *wanted* us to take from that.
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solipsisticurge

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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 07:16:54 pm »
If we assume Bakker is demonstrating excellent use of "political truth telling," who might be the author of the visions?

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Yellow

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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 07:29:38 pm »
Outside Kellhus!

I always felt the individual in the visions was calm, collected, rational. Not traits I associate with Ajokli, from what we've seen of him so far.
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Moosehunter

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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2017, 07:54:14 pm »
I felt RSB was giving us a yes on it being Ajokli. In much the way that Kelmommas was always the No God because he eventually became the NG, I believe Kellhus was always possessed by Ajokli because he was eventually possessed by Ajokli.

Still.......i never trust RSB:-)

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 10:58:03 pm »
Outside Kellhus!

I always felt the individual in the visions was calm, collected, rational. Not traits I associate with Ajokli, from what we've seen of him so far.
Seemingly calm, at times. But if Ajokli is Cnaiür I think the "legs crossed like a monk, slouched forward like an ape" (or however it went) descriptor is pretty apt imagery to sum up Cnaiür's conflict.

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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 12:11:18 am »
Quote from:  The Sharmat
Seemingly calm, at times. But if Ajokli is Cnaiür I think the "legs crossed like a monk, slouched forward like an ape" (or however it went) descriptor is pretty apt imagery to sum up Cnaiür's conflict.

I must have read that final scene different than some of you. I never took it as Cnaüir becoming Ajokli. I took it as Cnaüir being inhabited by Ajokli, then dying from the Whirlwind. So, I don't think Cnaüir is Ajokli not at all.

And, Bakker's answer to who Kellhus sees in his visions, is misdirection 100%. Thats Kellhus and Im not moving from that stance.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 01:57:12 am »
Guys, first up, I'm on holiday and on my phone so it's difficult to read the TWO PAGES of new content  :P

It's great, isn't it 8)?

Interesting. I read both those statements as confirmation that it *is* Ajokli.

- safe supposition ---> I take that as a gentle yes.

- that which comes after determines that which comes before ---> What comes after is Ajokli possessing Kellhus, what comes before is Ajokli sending Kellhus visions.

+1
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Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 04:55:10 pm »
Quote from:  The Sharmat
Seemingly calm, at times. But if Ajokli is Cnaiür I think the "legs crossed like a monk, slouched forward like an ape" (or however it went) descriptor is pretty apt imagery to sum up Cnaiür's conflict.

I must have read that final scene different than some of you. I never took it as Cnaüir becoming Ajokli. I took it as Cnaüir being inhabited by Ajokli, then dying from the Whirlwind. So, I don't think Cnaüir is Ajokli not at all.
Wait, I think we're confused, or maybe I am at least. People think Cnaiur IS Ajokli? That doesn't make any sense. Cnaiur is just crazy. Ajokli is an all seeing god that changes the laws of physics. Ajokli inhabits Cnaiur and walks into the whirlwind. For that brief moment, they are the same, but otherwise separate entities.

And, Bakker's answer to who Kellhus sees in his visions, is misdirection 100%. Thats Kellhus and Im not moving from that stance.
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 05:26:49 pm »
Ajokli is an all seeing god that changes the laws of physics. Ajokli inhabits Cnaiur and walks into the whirlwind. For that brief moment, they are the same, but otherwise separate entities.

I might contest "all seeing" but otherwise +1. As per Kellhus as well, methinks, though profgrape have debated the particulars of that to no conceded end.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 05:36:19 pm by Madness »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 05:29:04 pm »
"all seeing" then ;)
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 05:36:30 pm »
And then, Mr. Smartypants ;)?
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 07:46:10 pm »
Wait, I think we're confused, or maybe I am at least. People think Cnaiur IS Ajokli? That doesn't make any sense. Cnaiur is just crazy. Ajokli is an all seeing god that changes the laws of physics. Ajokli inhabits Cnaiur and walks into the whirlwind. For that brief moment, they are the same, but otherwise separate entities.

Not necessarily.  If Kelmomas is TNG and has always been, why can't Cnaiur be Ajokli (and have always been)?  Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, Cnaiur is 'already a Prince in Hell,' and what human hates more than Cnaiur?  Ajokli is described as sometimes a companion to the Gods, and sometimes an adversary.  Cnaiur has also been companion and adversary to the nations of men.  Trickster?  Maybe... he's clever and crazy as fuck, leading to erratic behavior.  Dunno, to me, it would make a kind of sense if Cnaiur turned out to be Ajokli, or at least could have assumed that mantle.  Kellhus' argument that their actions re-write the Outside could lend some weight to the Cnaiur is Ajokli theory. (hearty shrugs)
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 08:19:37 pm »
I think also what gets people to think Ajokli is Cnaüir is Bakkers comment that what comes after determines what comes before. Now, we know that this is true in Earwa, but is it true of all instances?

Lets see. We have Seswatha and the 1st Apocalypse preceding the Mandate. Nonmen proceeding Men and many other instances in sure I could come up with. My point though,is that what comes before does, in fact, determine what comes after in many cases in the books, in world. So, I think, that both are true. Just that what comes after is in fact true also and allows Bakker to bend the rules. Which is fine, we've speculated that this was so many times.

Let's take Kellhus for example, if what comes after is only true, then he was always possessed by Ajokli...and I don't think the text holds that up. I think somewhere along the lines of him working the Diamos is when it started, I don't agree that it was on the Circumfix.

If you look at Bakkers answers on the AMA and Q&A he is a variable Ajokli himself. When asked who Kellhus sees in his vision was Ajokli, his answer was, "Thats a good proposition."(paraphrasing). He will lead you down a path of your own liking, just like Cnaüir.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,