[TUC spoilers] The visions - Not Ajokli?

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Sausuna

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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2017, 03:53:08 pm »
@H - I think that raises an interesting question as to whether or not beings of others worlds take the shape of Men or not. Always wondered if the origin of life would ever be explored (given what interesting tidbits there are for the origin of Non-men). Or if aliens also shared the same gods (given we know the Inchoroi creators had a form of worship and were damned). Either way, somehow both Nau Cayuti and Kelmomas shared something beyond blood in regards to their minds that made them suitable. As I said, I just struggle to see what that might be, given they vary greatly in several regards.

Yeah, perhaps my question wasn't as succinct as it could have been.  It's plausible that this means the Kel was near to Nau, but I thought I by framing it inside a question of "other worlds" it would mean more about the pre-Eärwa insertents, however, that might not be a Bakker took it.
Considering that the Dunsult refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis" of the Ark, and the Ark itself had functioned fully before the Earwan crash-landing, it can't be said with certainty that the No-God existed pre-Earwa.
Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside and the Inchoroi (or was it that one Wracu) note how they reduced several worlds before. Wouldn't that imply they must have used the No-God in those attempts?

H

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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2017, 04:06:33 pm »
Considering that the Dunsult refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis" of the Ark, and the Ark itself had functioned fully before the Earwan crash-landing, it can't be said with certainty that the No-God existed pre-Earwa.

Well, something like it must have, because Ark is dead, yet something must still be able to read the code-flash in the 144k solution (otherwise the whole plan is pointless).  So, either Ark did before (via unknown mechanism) or the Sarcophagus did all along, just as a part (not separate) from Ark itself.  My hunch was the the thing we know of was more probable (but indeed, we can't know).
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2017, 05:02:20 pm »
Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside
For them, in their current situation. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was so before, when the Ark was operational.

and the Inchoroi (or was it that one Wracu) note how they reduced several worlds before.
That was Wutteat at the end of TWLW.

So, either Ark did before (via unknown mechanism) or the Sarcophagus did all along, just as a part (not separate) from Ark itself.  My hunch was the the thing we know of was more probable (but indeed, we can't know).
While a very big fan of the Law of Conservation of Detail, I just don't see why would they then specifically refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis". With the Ark being dead, the System doesn't work the way it did. This whole "using souls to complete the No-God's circuit" thing seems decidedly ad hoc to me. Even more so, it's described as ad hoc, at the end requiring the cunning of Men (the original Consult) to be completed.

This, in turn, raises the question of what the Ark actually is. Or was (?).

Sausuna

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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2017, 05:18:16 pm »
Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside
For them, in their current situation. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was so before, when the Ark was operational.
Perhaps. I think the question remains one way or another, what unique aspect of even Nau-Cayuti, allowed him (and later Kelmomas) to become the No-God where those thrown in for over a thousand years were insufficient. I can buy the idea that Ark served the function of the No-God and they didn't have one before. But it still doesn't answer what about Nau-Cayuti worked.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2017, 05:31:39 pm »
Perhaps. I think the question remains one way or another, what unique aspect of even Nau-Cayuti, allowed him (and later Kelmomas) to become the No-God where those thrown in for over a thousand years were insufficient. I can buy the idea that Ark served the function of the No-God and they didn't have one before. But it still doesn't answer what about Nau-Cayuti worked.
In the recent AMA Bakker was talking - very vaguely, I must note - about Kelmomas's lack of identity. The problem with that notion for me resides in the fact that Kelmomas wasn't behaving like someone who has no self. He was narrow-minded, possibly schizophrenic, but still a person with his own desires and aspirations. That's why I'm loath to discuss this aspect of the series. It very well might be that Bakker has some point in mind (which is logically structured, if obfuscated, in the narrative), but I just don't see it because my understanding of fundamental things defining human behavior differs from his.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2017, 12:02:51 am »
Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside
For them, in their current situation. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was so before, when the Ark was operational.
Perhaps. I think the question remains one way or another, what unique aspect of even Nau-Cayuti, allowed him (and later Kelmomas) to become the No-God where those thrown in for over a thousand years were insufficient. I can buy the idea that Ark served the function of the No-God and they didn't have one before. But it still doesn't answer what about Nau-Cayuti worked.

+1.  Those other victims were surely brutalized in the same way as Nau Cayuti.

In the interest of provoking more discussion it might be worth noting that the only confirmation of the Mutilated's assertion that it was NC in NoGod1.0 is Akka's dream. We still don't have the vaguest clue where that information comes from ... and we know that they have contradicted themselves before - when Anaxophus did not use the Heron Spear ... and so the DreamsFromTheSheath may not be trustworthy. No idea where to take this train of thought from here, but...

Celmomas has got a lot more similarities with his (K) namesake, twinsouled, dead-brother, direct lineage. Perhaps he is the key here.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2017, 12:15:44 am »
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2017, 12:35:22 am »
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).

Well, I read through both of those and must've missed that.

Perhaps this is what you mean?

Quote
Quote
Quote from: H on July 29, 2017, 06:57:10 am
I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark.  It was my presumption that the No-God apparatus (the sarcophagus) functioned differently before Ark-fall.  My supposition would be then that while Ark was fully functional, the souls of the Progenitors would have been contained therein, meaning that on other worlds, it would have been unnecessary to find a suitable surrogate.  Of course, the presumption then would be that what makes a soul a suitable alternative is not specifically Anisûrimbor blood, but rather similarity to the Progenitors.  Could this be an accurate summation?


Plug and play, basically. Having lost the original store of circuits, the Consult had no choice but to keep rummaging through the heap the World provided. The Anasurimbor, for whatever reason, have proven apt historically.

Doesn't seem that cut and dried to me.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 12:40:25 am by Cüréthañ »
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Yellow

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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2017, 06:24:49 am »
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).

I would modify this slightly in that he said an original insertant, not the original insertant, so I don't think there was only one of them.

EDIT - fixed the tag.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 08:40:38 am by Yellow »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2017, 08:05:36 am »
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).
The full quote is as follows:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
The Consult was obsessed because of Moenghus's discovery of their skin-spies. No part of Earwa's native population enjoys any 'technological advantage' in any gunpowdery sense. And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
It doesn't reference Arkfall or Ark in any way.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2017, 08:32:59 am »
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).

I would modify this slightly in that he said an[/] original insertant, not the original insertant, so I don't think there was only one of them.
Yes

Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).
The full quote is as follows:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
The Consult was obsessed because of Moenghus's discovery of their skin-spies. No part of Earwa's native population enjoys any 'technological advantage' in any gunpowdery sense. And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
It doesn't reference Arkfall or Ark in any way.
The quote quoted by Curethan
Quote
Quote
Quote from: H on July 29, 2017, 06:57:10 am
I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark.  It was my presumption that the No-God apparatus (the sarcophagus) functioned differently before Ark-fall.  My supposition would be then that while Ark was fully functional, the souls of the Progenitors would have been contained therein, meaning that on other worlds, it would have been unnecessary to find a suitable surrogate.  Of course, the presumption then would be that what makes a soul a suitable alternative is not specifically Anisûrimbor blood, but rather similarity to the Progenitors.  Could this be an accurate summation?


Plug and play, basically. Having lost the original store of circuits, the Consult had no choice but to keep rummaging through the heap the World provided. The Anasurimbor, for whatever reason, have proven apt historically.
This original store of circuits must've been lost during Arkfall. At least that's the way I see it.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2017, 08:49:57 am »
This original store of circuits must've been lost during Arkfall. At least that's the way I see it.
I've read it as the No-God itself being the ad hoc replacement for those circuits, hence the insertants with less than obvious properties.

[edit] Oh, another consideration just came to me. The Sarcophagus is human-shaped, while the Inchoroi aren't, and had been even less initially.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 08:57:39 am by SmilerLoki »

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2017, 09:15:50 am »
Thanks for the quote, Tleilaxu, I did miss that one. Your speculation makes a lot more sense now. :)
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codebread

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« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2017, 02:42:05 am »
I wonder if System Resumption would have happened if Kellhus has actually gotten inside. For all we know he might have died like the majority of those who are tossed in.

Jorram

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« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2017, 02:30:31 pm »
Being one of the two whose questions on the AMA are referenced in the OP, my take, for what it's worth, is that the Vision (at least the one in GTO) is not Ajokli. I rather feel that the Vision is an outlet for Kellhus' actual being a Prophet and that he chose, for whatever reasons, to ignore and mistrust this experience and to do some demon negotiations instead.

The entity that I believe was actually Ajokli in the text, is "the most crocodilian of the Sons".

That said, a couple of related inconsistencies/questions are present, some of which have been partly addressed in this topic:

- Nau-Cayuti is not a direct ancestor of Kellhus (unless he meant that in a more general way)

- Bakker does at one point claim that Anasurimbors are important as circuits, but in another place claims that not the bloodline but the identity-ambiguity is important. Certainly not all of the Anasurimbors were identity-ambigious and if we trust Akka's dreams not even Nau-Cayuti had any such condition (this is not to say that Akka's dreams should be taken at face value of course).

- More importantly though, what at all is the entire reasoning, motivation and connection to reality of the Celmomian prophecy? Again, if we take Akka's dreams as somewhat authoritative, then it comes from either Gilgaol or Ajokli. Gilgaol can't perceive the No-God and the Apocalypse, meaning it sounds pointless for him to send any such prophecies about the end of the world. Ajokli has SOME motivation to set this entire charade up, since he's in the present and in the past at the same time, but then why the hell do the Mutilated take this seriously at all? If Akka's dreams are not authoritative and something entirely else is going on with the Celmomian prophecy, then why don't we know about it? Narrative wise it would make better sense to let us in the know, no?
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