World War IV

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MSJ

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« Reply #120 on: August 21, 2017, 09:53:26 pm »
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I feel that fighting in the name of Freedom and converting them to Democracy seems about the same as Deity/Religion. This is probably where we disagree most, but I'm not sure what to do about that.  :)

Well, I certainly agree that Democracy isn't for everyone or every nation. But, I can remember initially seeing the joy of liberation of tyranny in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't know what the right type of government for each is. I believe Iraq opted to have a Parliament of sorts, where all the ethnic groups had a say. And, I remember watching and reading things were alot people felt it a huge improvement over Sadaam. Unfortunately, it looks like ISIS has disrupted there government making any gains at the moment to improve. Afghanistan seems to be in a little better place. In terms of government and a military that will fight back. And good for them.

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I remember years of 'the world' chiding us for sticking our hands in places we don't belong, then years (now) of 'the world' asking us to raise arms with them again. Right now, I think the world should try and figure this one out without the US to be the scapegoat. Let the EU spend 50% of its GDP on weapons, military training, and fighting a decades long war. We literally just finished doing that, lets take a break. EU has the same economic might as we do, and probably a similar military if they added it together, if not now then if they spent the same kind of money we do.

And, therein lies the problem. We are literally damned if we do and damned if we don't. And, you know full well that the rest of the world will do shit without us. Hell, during Afghanistan, the UK was the only one to truly stand by us. Yea, other countries sent troops...100 or so. The World wants us to deal with problems so they don't have to, and all the while bitching and moaning about how we do it. Lose-lose.

I'm not delusional. I know even in Afghanistan, a war justified fully by harbori g Al-Qaeda and Bin-Laden, that we gain from war. Its a money machine and in the case of Afghanistan I'd venture to say it's why America has an opiate epidemic.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #121 on: August 21, 2017, 10:57:20 pm »
I remember years of 'the world' chiding us for sticking our hands in places we don't belong, then years (now) of 'the world' asking us to raise arms with them again. Right now, I think the world should try and figure this one out without the US to be the scapegoat. Let the EU spend 50% of its GDP on weapons, military training, and fighting a decades long war. We literally just finished doing that, lets take a break. EU has the same economic might as we do, and probably a similar military if they added it together, if not now then if they spent the same kind of money we do.
Who's the world in this case? I personally wish ISIS would be left to the Syrian army, Russia and shia militias. I just want stability, I don't really care if Iran gets increased geopolitical interest.

MSJ

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« Reply #122 on: August 21, 2017, 11:56:28 pm »
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= tleilaxu]Who's the world in this case? I personally wish ISIS would be left to the Syrian army, Russia and shia militias. I just want stability, I don't really care if Iran gets increased geopolitical interest.

So your cool with the use of chemical weapons on the people of Syria as long as it leads to stability?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #123 on: August 22, 2017, 01:15:30 am »
I'm not really cool with chemical weapons, but then again I don't see a huge difference between dying by such means and dying by a missile strike.

themerchant

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« Reply #124 on: August 22, 2017, 03:16:37 am »
Chemical weapons weren't used by the regime.

Prof Theodore Postol of MIT-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Postol

has stated after analyzing the data that it couldn't have come from the Syrian Regime. It's war propaganda.

With Richard Lloyd, an expert in warhead design at Tesla Laboratories, Postol has written about the 2013 Ghouta chemical attack.[32][33][34] Together they believe they found a number of items to be inconsistent with the US government's claims about the incident.[35][32][36]

Postol defended Maram Susli regarding her analysis of the Ghouta attack and against accusations of involvement in terrorism.[37]

Postol has also criticized the unclassified intelligence assessment released by the Trump White House blaming the air forces of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad for the April 2017 Khan Shaykhun chemical attack.[38][39] Based on his own analysis of the photographic evidence, Postol has argued that the chemical attack was not an air raid, but conducted from the ground using a multiple rocket launcher, most probably a 122mm artillery rocket tube filled with a chemical agent and detonated by an explosive charge laid on top of it.[40][41][42]

Postol has argued that none of the forensic evidence in the New York Times video[43][44] and a follow-on Times news article[45] on the alleged nerve agent attack in Khan Sheikhoun on April 4, 2017 supports the conclusions reported by the New York Times.[46]


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/new-study-refines-view-of-sarin-attack-in-syria.html

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/world/syria/Lloyd_warhead.pdf?ref=middleeast

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1006045/possible-implications-of-bad-intelligence.pdf

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #125 on: August 22, 2017, 06:51:26 am »

And, I've answered this question multiple times already, so excuse my irritation. When Obama pulled out the majority of our troops after him being elected, it caused a vacuum which gave rise to ISIS. Mind you, against the wishes of our highest military officers. It was only done because that's what he ran his campaign on. If those troops weren't pulled out and we have the Iraqi government more time to stabilize and become confident in there military and police force, ISIS wouldn't be what they are today. It was a mistake, a huge one. Iraqi officials felt betrayed because of the pullout and knew and told what was going to happen. Their military wasn't trained enough or established for that matter. Thats why we've sent more troops back over to there and Afghanistan, to try and get back the territory we ceded when we pulled out. ISIS, the Taliban were licking their chops when Obama was announcing the pullout of troops, all they had to do was wait.

ETA: and you keep insisting ISIS is worse, how so? Sadaam killed millions of his own people, mass genocide by chemical weapons over decades. No difference between the two in my mind. And, as I stated above, if we didn't pullout so quickly, ISIS wouldn't be as huge as a problem as they are now.

Fair enough. I disagree with the troop withdrawal leading directly to ISIS; I feel they were inevitable once Hussein was ousted, and our presence merely slowed, not halted, their inception. One thing about Hussein - though his methods were brutal and abhorrent, he was spectacularly good at keeping the religious and cultural tensions within Iraq from boiling over. In his absence, decades-suppressed animosity stretching back centuries was bound to flare up. Whether or not they were inevitable is largely a matter of opinion at this point, though, so we'll have to reconcile ourselves to alternate camps in the future alternative history forum wars.

As to ISIS being worse, my reasons for believing so are their fundamentalist religious doctrine (Hussein was largely a secular ruler), and their much larger tendency toward attacking outside their own borders. Hussein was no saint in this regard either, but didn't have the entire western world and middle east in fear over his next move. Again, a matter of opinion, largely.

My overriding opinion, on this and other post-WW2 military interventions by America, is that they cause more harm than good in the long run. Not because America is inherently evil, but just because culture and politics are insanely complicated, especially in regions of the world which have been pressure points for centuries on, and short-term interests and cultural bias tend to overwhelm long-term strategic thinking in foreign military action (especially when economic incentives take the wheel). We can mean the best, but when we prioritize our economic agenda and demand the situation be, above all else, convenient and easily comprehended, we take embers which have been smoldering for generations and create bonfires of international catastrophe.
Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #126 on: August 22, 2017, 06:58:16 am »
Its more a question of, what does the world agree is right and what does it/"we" justify as wrong. Or at least, a majority of people?

Why do we we fundamentally concern ourselves with what's agreed? Most people are idiots. ;)

All morality is subjective. Democratically elected morality isn't more objectively true, just more popular. We give the people's/world's consensus weight because we, the products of some form of democracy or another, are conditioned to find merit in that which adheres to the system we are ensconced in.
Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

MSJ

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« Reply #127 on: August 22, 2017, 03:05:21 pm »
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My overriding opinion, on this and other post-WW2 military interventions by America, is that they cause more harm than good in the long run. Not because America is inherently evil, but just because culture and politics are insanely complicated, especially in regions of the world which have been pressure points for centuries on, and short-term interests and cultural bias tend to overwhelm long-term strategic thinking in foreign military action (especially when economic incentives take the wheel). We can mean the best, but when we prioritize our economic agenda and demand the situation be, above all else, convenient and easily comprehended, we take embers which have been smoldering for generations and create bonfires of international catastrophe.

I agree largely with this also, yet, when the call for war comes, what are you to do? As, I think Wilshire said, I myself would also love for the rest of the world to take on more responsibility. Rather, than looking across the Atlantic and expecting us to solve the problems. They condemn us for doing nothing and then condemn us when we do. What gives?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #128 on: August 22, 2017, 05:11:32 pm »
Its more a question of, what does the world agree is right and what does it/"we" justify as wrong. Or at least, a majority of people?

Why do we we fundamentally concern ourselves with what's agreed? Most people are idiots. ;)

All morality is subjective. Democratically elected morality isn't more objectively true, just more popular. We give the people's/world's consensus weight because we, the products of some form of democracy or another, are conditioned to find merit in that which adheres to the system we are ensconced in.

I agree. But again, its a system that holds itself accountable, generally. When 'we' decide it, we should only have ourselves to blame. IMO, better to be able to punish those making poor decisions compared to decisions coming down from above (heaven, dictators, religious leaders, party selected 'democratic' demagogues, etc.).

Again, how do you remove people from the equation?

For the record, I think democracy has done a mediocre job in recent years (recent years being as far back as I have been paying attention). The system we have has been thoroughly hacked, and is functionally meaningless. I don't think giving a bunch of barely literate people, brainwashed by their chosen propaganda channels (or in today's vernacular "echo chambers"), control of the most powerful nation in the world is a good idea. The idea that everyone has a 'right' to vote is totally absurd to me.

But I have no fix for this system either. I'd love to hear suggestions though.
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themerchant

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« Reply #129 on: August 22, 2017, 05:51:21 pm »
As Winston Churchil said: The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Hiro

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« Reply #130 on: August 22, 2017, 07:07:53 pm »
As Winston Churchil said: The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Another one by Winston Churchill, although with an unknown reference:

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Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…
Mystery denotes darkness

MSJ

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« Reply #131 on: August 22, 2017, 07:12:06 pm »
Domocracy is by no means perfect, as an American, at this moment, any sane half-educated person can tell you. But, not to veer to far off topic, the Left has been asking for this. The white-male. In America has been increasingly ignored and the views and feelings not taking into consideration. Trump isn't at all what a president should be, but no one can say he's dumb. He new this about the white -male being ignored and he chise to not ignore them and they came out in droves and put him in office.

Whats better than democracy, though? A king ruling over America and we're all just his loyal subjects and pay our taxes and praise him? Nah. The simple fact is there is no perfect system. And Wilshire, i think it's a very weird statement that you think that everyone should not have the right to vote. Who do you suggest has that right? Those with 4 year degrees? Count me out. Thanks for taking that away from me. Just because I don't have college education, doesn't mean I'm not educated and try to stay up with current topics. As an American, everyone has the right to vote and should be protected. Just cause someone is not educated to your liking, doesn't mean they don't have issues they hold dear to their heart. I certainly don't want just the "elite" voting. As much as I hate the President Trump is our president, it gives me faith in the Democratic process. That when voices who have not been heard and ignored, rally and come out and vote the can change history. Just this time, in the wrong fucking way, I admit.

I'm scared as an American. After Charlottesville, President Trump should have condemned the Neo-Nazi's. Instead, he weaved around it, so as to not lose any votes for his next term. Trump isn't about a better America, he's about Trump. I hope and pray they find a way to impeach him, I truly do. But, is the VP any better? I don't think so. So, let's hold out hope we can make it another 3 and 1/2 years without WWIII or a Civil War. And, I can guarantee that Trump will not be back in office. We will see the ones he's ignored and ostracized come forth and vote to remove his dumbass. I have faith in that.

I remember saying on this very forum, that while I didn't vote for Trump, that maybe, just maybe he would do some good. Get the corruption out of D.C., not was I wrong. He's a megalomaniac that is only concerned about himself, and thats dangerous. I condemn what happened in Charlottesville, I texted families and friends of mine (Afican-American) that we need to stand together, don't let this year us apart. Its hard for them. There very scared, to say the least that our president wouldn't condemn the actions of these terrorists and that's what they are. I would stand by the Left in this instance, without a doubt. But, the Left seems to ignore another threat, Islamic extremism and the threat the pose. And, quite frankly, I am sick and tired of the political correctness in this country. Why can't we just say things are what they are. We can all see it. Is all of Islam and, no. But, we as a nation need to take both the alt-right and Islamic extremism very seriously and quit parsing words in order to not offend someone. There comes a time that when it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a fucking duck, man. I just think people need to grow some balls, if not, this country is dire straights that might be the ruin of it. Sorry for my rant. Just needed to get it off my chest.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 07:17:26 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Woden

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« Reply #132 on: August 22, 2017, 08:07:31 pm »
As I said before, why not epistocracy?

Read Brennan "Against democracy".
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

MSJ

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« Reply #133 on: August 22, 2017, 08:15:11 pm »
Woden, whats epistocracy? I'm sure I can look it up, by what makes you prefer it?

ETA: so basically voters in Democracy are not informed enough. Well, isnt that the responsibility of each voter? The thing is, is that the majority of people when voting only care about 1, maybe 2 issues at the most. The rest means nothing to them, even if educated on it.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 08:50:02 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #134 on: August 23, 2017, 01:47:15 am »
We need a soft Dûnyain system. Meritocratic, but instead of brutal eugenics we just softly eliminate genetic diseases in new generations. Also, laissez-faire capitalists will be sent to conversion camps.