Who actually liked TUC?

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Artsuhtaraz

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« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2017, 02:03:04 am »
It subverts the Epic Fantasy Grand Finale just as well as the characters and story have so far subverted every trope and cliche in fantasy writing.
I do recognize that there are several significant subversions of fantasy tropes, but not "every."  (This is not as much a criticism of Bakker's work as a criticism of the hyperbole surrounding it.)  This applies to his "Epic Fantasy Grand Finale," too, since TUC isn't the end.  Every series has reversals of fortune.  If you'd stopped reading after Morgoth stole the Silmarils, you could say the same thing about Tolkien.  So we don't have enough information yet to determine if this is actually as subversive as you're claiming.     

What I will say is, TUC suffers far more being the second half of a split novel than TGO suffered being the first half. You can positively feel the absence in places. (Probably less impactful if you've read TGO obsessively numerous times, or had opportunity for a re-read shortly before TUC's release.) The one ridiculously long novel would have been better, financial realities of modern publishing be damned.

I didn't feel the splitting of two novels as much for TUC as for TGO.  The episodic feeling of the latter can't be a criticism of the former, since it's the finale.  It would have ended at the same place regardless (I assume) and thus suffered exactly the criticisms being levied now. 


Would have liked a bit more time with the New Consult, Kellhus and the Mutilated waxing philosophical about their opposing agendas, rather than a curt, "Whatcha gonna do? Gnosis goes one way, Tekne the other!" analysis of the differences.
I agree.
 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 02:07:11 am by Artsuhtaraz »

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2017, 10:59:59 pm »
I do recognize that there are several significant subversions of fantasy tropes, but not "every."  (This is not as much a criticism of Bakker's work as a criticism of the hyperbole surrounding it.)  This applies to his "Epic Fantasy Grand Finale," too, since TUC isn't the end.  Every series has reversals of fortune.  If you'd stopped reading after Morgoth stole the Silmarils, you could say the same thing about Tolkien.  So we don't have enough information yet to determine if this is actually as subversive as you're claiming.

Fair enough. It feels like the ending, and was the intended one at some point (though I'm assuming certain details about the World, its metaphysics, etc. would have been made clearer by this point if it had remained the final installment. And, yes, I am perhaps a touch hyperbolic in my praise at times, though I do still contend he takes at least most of the most overutilized tropes (the wise old sage, the unknowing descendant of kings and heroes coming from a secluded existence to save the world, the noble savage, etc.) and runs circles around them.

Quote
I didn't feel the splitting of two novels as much for TUC as for TGO.  The episodic feeling of the latter can't be a criticism of the former, since it's the finale.  It would have ended at the same place regardless (I assume) and thus suffered exactly the criticisms being levied now.

You just said it wasn't the finale. Make up your damn mind! ;)

My criticism of the separation into two volumes was aimed at the book as a whole, not so much the ending itself (which, yes, would be unaltered whether it was one volume or thirteen). Oft-criticized segments such as the Great Ordeal's Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust, I think, would carry more weight were the descent into madness not so seemingly sudden as the carving into two novels makes it feel in the absence of a re-read immediately prior.
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Artsuhtaraz

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« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2017, 01:07:33 am »
You just said it wasn't the finale. Make up your damn mind! ;) 

Ha! You're right.  I really shouldn't post after a few beers.  (I drink some pretty strong ales.)  My point was that TUC had resolution (which even portions of a story can have, before the end).  TGO, on the other hand, didn't feel like it had any resolution whatsoever, just a point where the narrative stopped.

Oft-criticized segments such as the Great Ordeal's Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust, I think, would carry more weight were the descent into madness not so seemingly sudden as the carving into two novels makes it feel in the absence of a re-read immediately prior.
I didn't realize these were oft-criticized.  I loved those segments.   

Nil Sertrax

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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2017, 02:36:13 pm »
I think the criticism is generally the length and repetitiveness of these sections which, some believe, could have been shortened without losing their impact.  Some would have preferred additional words dedicated to describing events like Sorweel, Serwa and Moe's escape from Ishterebinth or a lengthier conclusion section inside the Golden Room. 

Personally, I have no problem with the sodomy cannibal holocaust as written but would have enjoyed a lengthening of the book to include those additional parts mentioned above.
 

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2017, 11:00:27 am »
I am very disappointed with TUC. That's all I want to say.

Monkhound

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« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2017, 11:18:40 am »
Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust

Just saying: I'm loving this denomination. It could be a black metal band  ;D
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2017, 12:05:49 pm »
Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust

Just saying: I'm loving this denomination. It could be a black metal band  ;D
Kinda sounds like an Impiety song title.

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2017, 06:19:54 pm »
Cannibal Holocaust is a classic snuff horror film from decades back. Actors legitimately thought the director was going to murder them. Bakker and his wife would love it, if they haven't seen it yet.

And everything's better with sodomy, of course.

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« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2017, 10:18:43 pm »
Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust

Just saying: I'm loving this denomination. It could be a black metal band  ;D

Thanks for that, solipsisticurge.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2017, 12:30:01 am »
Cannibal Holocaust is a classic snuff horror film from decades back. Actors legitimately thought the director was going to murder them. Bakker and his wife would love it, if they haven't seen it yet.

And everything's better with sodomy, of course.

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I was honestly disappointed by Cannibal Holocaust. It wasn't nearly as extreme as I'd imagined it. Sweet theme though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf1Vt6r-sj8

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2017, 12:49:24 am »
Cannibal Holocaust is a classic snuff horror film from decades back. Actors legitimately thought the director was going to murder them. Bakker and his wife would love it, if they haven't seen it yet.

And everything's better with sodomy, of course.

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I was honestly disappointed by Cannibal Holocaust. It wasn't nearly as extreme as I'd imagined it. Sweet theme though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf1Vt6r-sj8
I watched it with my old roommate and her boyfriend at the time. I'm not a huge fan of snuff horror in general, too desensitized to care about the gore and not sadistic enough to revel in it. Give me psychological dread and existential doubt over blood and guts any day.

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NronFisher

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« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2017, 06:26:43 am »
*points to himself*

I loved TUC, and I have enjoyed all of his books (not all are great, aka TWLW).

I know you hate it but you know what's great? You FELT something. How many books have you read that you just thought, "Meh" and forgot it after you put it down. How many pop songs have you heard that reverberate in your brain and never make you feel anything or inspire you? So much of the artistic medium is devoted to appealing to the most common denominator in order to hit all those same pleasure-receptors in your brain long enough for you to buy that stupid shit. Meanwhile originality gets suppressed and you live in a bubble never having to feel or think anything new. So it turns out you hated this work, but you know what? A work of art that can make you hate it is better than something that doesn't make you feel at all.

Srancy

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« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2017, 11:52:12 am »
Loved it

TaoHorror

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« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2017, 02:33:37 pm »
*points to himself*

I loved TUC, and I have enjoyed all of his books (not all are great, aka TWLW).

I know you hate it but you know what's great? You FELT something. How many books have you read that you just thought, "Meh" and forgot it after you put it down. How many pop songs have you heard that reverberate in your brain and never make you feel anything or inspire you? So much of the artistic medium is devoted to appealing to the most common denominator in order to hit all those same pleasure-receptors in your brain long enough for you to buy that stupid shit. Meanwhile originality gets suppressed and you live in a bubble never having to feel or think anything new. So it turns out you hated this work, but you know what? A work of art that can make you hate it is better than something that doesn't make you feel at all.

Well said, nFisher - you articulated the point much better than I could. Though I'm hampered by the fact I loved all of the books ( including TWLW - not sure how that was called out as not great ), so I don't identify with those who "hate" the story/books. So much of it was exciting and Bakker's descriptions of horror resonate richly for me ... some of this stuff really scared me, which is awesome.
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2017, 08:14:14 pm »
*points to himself*

I loved TUC, and I have enjoyed all of his books (not all are great, aka TWLW).

I know you hate it but you know what's great? You FELT something. How many books have you read that you just thought, "Meh" and forgot it after you put it down. How many pop songs have you heard that reverberate in your brain and never make you feel anything or inspire you? So much of the artistic medium is devoted to appealing to the most common denominator in order to hit all those same pleasure-receptors in your brain long enough for you to buy that stupid shit. Meanwhile originality gets suppressed and you live in a bubble never having to feel or think anything new. So it turns out you hated this work, but you know what? A work of art that can make you hate it is better than something that doesn't make you feel at all.

Well said, nFisher - you articulated the point much better than I could. Though I'm hampered by the fact I loved all of the books ( including TWLW - not sure how that was called out as not great ), so I don't identify with those who "hate" the story/books. So much of it was exciting and Bakker's descriptions of horror resonate richly for me ... some of this stuff really scared me, which is awesome.

I agree with both your points.  Bakker is on record as saying that the task of the fantasy author is to give meaning to something meaningless (or something similar).  The ending of TUC left me feeling numb on the inside.  No book has done that before.  It took me about an hour and a half to shake it off.  It fuckin meant something :o :'( :)
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