[Madness]

Does it matter though? If we are all deceived anyway, why not pick a delusion that hurts no one, and can make you less aggressive and hostile towards others.

+1. Or the one that facilitates the most 'good' (which is a powder-keg of an argument).

That your brain is making you believe you have gained some "inner truth" might be true. Does it matter though? If we are all deceived anyway, why not pick a delusion that hurts no one, and can make you less aggressive and hostile towards others.

I think Bakker gets into this very question with the Dunyain. If all is deception, why does one deception matter more than another? Why does truth matter...is there meaning in a deluding life?

Well, what if meaning itself is an illusion?

I look at people finding grand truths in drug use the same way I look at people still working on philosophical justifications for dualism - if nothing is true then Truth itself is a questionable goal so let these people indulge themselves.

Not to mention the possibility that people do find Truth via drugs or dualism.

What does 'Truth' even mean in this context, sci? How do you establish 'objective' existent outside ourselves 'truth,' if the only meaning humans are capable of apprehending is utilitarian and subjective?

EDIT: In this context, the only thing drug cocktails (o'natural or otherwise) might establish is a more 'functional' perspective that creates less 'subjective-obstacles' when interacting with the social and physical realities.

[sciborg2]

That your brain is making you believe you have gained some "inner truth" might be true. Does it matter though? If we are all deceived anyway, why not pick a delusion that hurts no one, and can make you less aggressive and hostile towards others.

I think Bakker gets into this very question with the Dunyain. If all is deception, why does one deception matter more than another? Why does truth matter...is there meaning in a deluding life?

Well, what if meaning itself is an illusion?

I look at people finding grand truths in drug use the same way I look at people still working on philosophical justifications for dualism - if nothing is true then Truth itself is a questionable goal so let these people indulge themselves.

Not to mention the possibility that people do find Truth via drugs or dualism.

What does 'Truth' even mean in this context, sci? How do you establish 'objective' existent outside ourselves 'truth,' if the only meaning humans are capable of apprehending is utilitarian and subjective?

EDIT: In this context, the only thing drug cocktails (o'natural or otherwise) might establish is a more 'functional' perspective that creates less 'subjective-obstacles' when interacting with the social and physical realities.

Yeah, that's part of the challenge facing skeptics clamoring for increasing acceptance of materialism. It offers objective truths but what can if bring to the discussion of subjective first person experience...the qualia of "Truth"?

I guess what I was getting at is I don't see the problem with someone being "deceived" into thinking there are DMT elves so long as they aren't harming others. Just pushing back against the, IMO silly, notion that increased numbers of skeptical materialists will make the world better somehow.

[Madness]

I'm not straight on the specifics of 'skeptical materialists' or the 'qualia of Truth' but I was asking after "the possibility of finding Truth via drugs" as well (you somewhat addressed the "one deception over the other").

[sciborg2]

I'm not straight on the specifics of 'skeptical materialists' or the 'qualia of Truth' but I was asking after "the possibility of finding Truth via drugs" as well (you somewhat addressed the "one deception over the other").

I guess in simplified form I don't see how drugs can fake subjective feelings of Truth if all feelings are ultimately illusory from the third person objective framework of science.

It's also problematic, to me anyway, to deny someone their personal feeling of gnosis if they aren't harming anyone. I have a friend who shed his depression after an ayuhuasca trip wherein he contacted the goddess Sophia.

Now, I don't believe in Sophia (or Zeus/Allah/Shiva/etc) but I don't know if there's a huge problem with someone else believing in what I and science consider an illusion.

[Madness]

I think you are trying to say that all Truth is relative but that all relative Truth has the potential to be 'good' for an individual - like your friend?

The original discrepancy arose here:

I look at people finding grand truths in drug use the same way I look at people still working on philosophical justifications for dualism - if nothing is true then Truth itself is a questionable goal so let these people indulge themselves.

Not to mention the possibility that people do find Truth via drugs or dualism.

Those two sentences seemed somehow incompatible to me.

[sciborg2]

Yeah, that pretty much captures what I was getting at.

Sorry for the confusion. Lack of sleep, long hours.

[Madness]

No apologies necessary, Sci, it is a non-issue.

Take care of yourself, brethren.

[Royce]

Now, I don't believe in Sophia (or Zeus/Allah/Shiva/etc) but I don't know if there's a huge problem with someone else believing in what I and science consider an illusion.

Again, if we are all deceived anyway, this should not be a problem. Many people use psychedelics to have a mystical experience(as you describe with your friend). This experience may give individuals a renewed sense of meaning in their lives. Like religion does for others actually.

I do not care what people believe, as long as it does not harm others. I think the difference between having a mystical experience through psychedelics VS religion, is that it is not written down in a book, it does not have strict rules you have to follow. In other words it is not organized and based on profit and lies.

I am glad that it now seems to be more acceptance for the use of psychedelics in therapy and otherwise. That the state should tell us what is good for our health by spreading lies about psychedelics, and at the same time throwing alcohol,nicotine and caffeine in our faces is just absurd.

[Madness]

Well, we already have a rudiment understanding of which types of drugs best facilitate 'good' experiences as we've highlighted in the last few posts (and the majority of the thread really) and which types of drug are most likely to cause acute harm or 'bad' experiences - as per the thread title.

However, even despite doing all kinds of terrible and great things to my body and my brain through ignorance growing up, I still don't know how much I condone facilitating these kinds of therapies over non-chemical alternatives.

Though, of course, if there was a collection of research done, the popular conceptions would be overturned, we'd be selling ourselves packages of modernized cocktail version shrooms and LSD.

[Royce]

However, even despite doing all kinds of terrible and great things to my body and my brain through ignorance growing up, I still don't know how much I condone facilitating these kinds of therapies over non-chemical alternatives.

Well, you should not  take (at least not high doses) when your young. You have no idea what you are getting into. It seems we have both experienced what certain drugs can do to a undeveloped mind.

It is something else when you are an adult. I know people who would rather spend a little money on a "heroic dose" of psilocybin, instead of spending a lot of time and money with a psychiatrist or psychologist.

For me it was an amazing experience. It changed me in many ways, all of them good. Made me more humble, less cocksure, much more
caring to everything.

Either way I do not know if I recommend it, because it was also extremely unpleasant during the start of the trip, and people react very
differently to these kinds of drugs. Psychedelics is also just one of many ways to achieve these goals. Since I am lazy, it was natural for
me to do it, instead of spending years to learn yoga or meditation at very high levels. You must go deep to compete with a high dose of psychedelics.

[Madness]

Since I am lazy, it was natural for
me to do it, instead of spending years to learn yoga or meditation at very high levels. You must go deep to compete with a high dose of psychedelics.

Lol - this was really where I ended my last post, Royce. There is no reason to assume that every generation, or even all peoples, need to see sustained practice as a dichotomy of laziness. I'd much rather see us review our perspectives of meditation and 'trips' and clothe the latter in the supposed ritual of the first (cause honestly, breathing: you're doing it anyways - attention makes meditation).

It's the ignorance that gets me. Luckily, there were three of us at each other's backs and there were no instances of innate biology and exogenous chemicals interacting with damage. But we ranged in our drug use and did really dangerous, ill-informed things to ourselves.

Plus arguing between the level of specificity, intensity, duration, of drugs now (then) and drugs to come is still just offering people two versions of roulette and probably the natural occurrences are less safe (I realize you were only "soft-advocating" the point).

[Royce]

It's the ignorance that gets me. Luckily, there were three of us at each other's backs and there were no instances of innate biology and exogenous chemicals interacting with damage. But we ranged in our drug use and did really dangerous, ill-informed things to ourselves.

Yes, and this is why I am for drug education instead of war on drugs. Kids will explore drugs no matter what, so why not take that
seriously, and educate them instead of screaming NO to their faces.

[Madness]

Haha. Did you know that there were statistical analyses done of the "success" of Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign?

More people ended up trying drugs because of being introduced to the concept of drugs, who otherwise would not have been exposed to them; this outweighed the negligible (small) number of people who actually said "no" because of seeing the advertisements.

[Royce]

Yeah, I have seen him promoting crack on TV, it is ridiculous.

Say "just say know" instead of "just say no"

[Madness]

Yeah, I have seen him promoting crack on TV, it is ridiculous.

Say "just say know" instead of "just say no"

Lmao. I will assume you are thinking of Joe Rogan?

I was referring to Nancy Reagan .

But I agree with your slogan. If arming yourself with more information doesn't help, I'm not sure what will.