Modern Day Times With A Dunyain

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2018, 10:30:32 am »
Thanks for taking the time.
It was my pleasure.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2018, 08:34:28 pm »
First of all, I think this was a great post, SmilerLoki, and sorry if I'm not commenting on most of the points you brought up, but I a) don't really have much to add and b) am sure those are subjects about which you have more knowledge anyway.


Returning to language, there is also the question of practice. You very well can understand a language, but not be able to speak it correctly (a requirement of sorcery, I must note) because your muscles aren't used to making the movements necessary. So it's also about muscle memory, which is acquired by training.

I'm fairly sure Bakker is proficient only in his native language, thus lacking the experience of learning another one (or more) and then comparing your level of proficiency in it to your native one. Otherwise he would've been more realistic in his description. Basically, he not only contradicts my (layman) knowledge, he also contradicts my personal experience. For those yet unaware, English is not my native language (Russian is), and I additionally have a cursory knowledge of two more languages (French and Japanese) in the sense that with ample time and a dictionary I can understand 80% of the texts written in them.

I had to comment on this part because I agree with you 100%, the speed at which Dûnyain learn languages is indeed something only possible in the domain of fantasy. I always had that little whisper in the back of my mind whenever this came up in the books, but let my mind attribute it to some supernatural factor (Nonman blood or something) so that it wouldn't break my suspension of disbelief too much. Like you, I am someone who has English as their second language. I have some knowledge of other languages, French and German in my case (had classes for 3 years in my teens in the former case, for 1 year in my early-mid 20s in the latter). I think this point you made might be something that it is more apparent for someone who has at least reached a level of proficiency in one other language than not their native one. And there's the fact that (I think) a vast majority (or a significant amount, at least) of the people in this community only speak English. Not that this means most people in this forum will not think Dûnyain learn languages way too quickly, of course, but I think you can understand what I mean.
We actually know for a fact that Bakker doesn't think much of learning new languages (as seen here). And it definitely shows in this part of the story.
And I remember correctly, didn't every single Dûnyain in Ishuäl grow up speaking one single language, that had been the only one anyone in that community spoke for thousands of years? They didn't even have a minimum of exposure to any other language, which makes the whole thing even more unbelievable...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 08:38:11 pm by ThoughtsOfThelli »
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2018, 09:40:18 pm »
First of all, I think this was a great post
Thank you! I had a distinct feeling you would understand me better than most, precisely because of the fact that you're a non-native speaker (I surmised that from some of your posts) who utilizes English at a native speaker level. I can imagine the amount of time and effort that took.

Not that this means most people in this forum will not think Dûnyain learn languages way too quickly, of course, but I think you can understand what I mean.
Of course!

We actually know for a fact that Bakker doesn't think much of learning new languages (as seen here). And it definitely shows in this part of the story.
It might sound strange, but I actually agree with him. Unfortunately, some things are what they are. In today's world you have to know English, that's not an option, it's a requirement. Learning languages is thinking wide instead of thinking deep, but translations often become so extremely inconvenient that you simply have to delve into the language or lose crucial pieces of information.

And I remember correctly, didn't every single Dûnyain in Ishuäl grow up speaking one single language, that had been the only one anyone in that community spoke for thousands of years? They didn't even have a minimum of exposure to any other language, which makes the whole thing even more unbelievable...
You are absolutely correct. They spoke Dunyanic. I was considering bringing this point up, but then thought it would be kinda hard to showcase why it's important.

A short example for the sake of others, though. Some time ago the Moscow subway (it's called the Moscow Metro) started to provide announcements in English in addition to Russian (probably something to do with this year's soccer World Championship), and I always wondered about the effectiveness of that idea. Let's say you're a tourist from an English-speaking country, never heard Russian in your life, and want to visit a famous museum, Третьяковская галерея (Tretyakov Gallery). The subway station you need for it is called, unsurprisingly, Третьяковская (Tretyakovskaya). Now, that might not look too bad, but, unfortunately, there is no way to write how it actually sounds using English alphabet (you can listen to it here). I really have no inkling how should an English speaker even pick out that word in an announcement when looking for their stop. Pronouncing it correctly... Well, good luck with that, but don't feel bad when you fail, and fail, and fail again. English just doesn't have those sounds, it's literally unpronounceable without a huge amount of training.

Also, yes, you should use subway in Moscow. It's much more convenient than a car in 60% of cases at the very least.

So, the point is, knowing what a word means or how it's written is not the same as speaking it.

MSJ

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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2018, 09:43:20 pm »
The ideas and thoughts that SmilerLoki, ToT, Tao, TLEILAXU, and all new member bring have been just outstanding. I for one appreciate it. You too, BFK!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2018, 02:03:17 pm »
First of all, I think this was a great post
Thank you! I had a distinct feeling you would understand me better than most, precisely because of the fact that you're a non-native speaker (I surmised that from some of your posts) who utilizes English at a native speaker level. I can imagine the amount of time and effort that took.

Not that this means most people in this forum will not think Dûnyain learn languages way too quickly, of course, but I think you can understand what I mean.
Of course!

We actually know for a fact that Bakker doesn't think much of learning new languages (as seen here). And it definitely shows in this part of the story.
It might sound strange, but I actually agree with him. Unfortunately, some things are what they are. In today's world you have to know English, that's not an option, it's a requirement. Learning languages is thinking wide instead of thinking deep, but translations often become so extremely inconvenient that you simply have to delve into the language or lose crucial pieces of information.

And I remember correctly, didn't every single Dûnyain in Ishuäl grow up speaking one single language, that had been the only one anyone in that community spoke for thousands of years? They didn't even have a minimum of exposure to any other language, which makes the whole thing even more unbelievable...
You are absolutely correct. They spoke Dunyanic. I was considering bringing this point up, but then thought it would be kinda hard to showcase why it's important.

A short example for the sake of others, though. Some time ago the Moscow subway (it's called the Moscow Metro) started to provide announcements in English in addition to Russian (probably something to do with this year's soccer World Championship), and I always wondered about the effectiveness of that idea. Let's say you're a tourist from an English-speaking country, never heard Russian in your life, and want to visit a famous museum, Третьяковская галерея (Tretyakov Gallery). The subway station you need for it is called, unsurprisingly, Третьяковская (Tretyakovskaya). Now, that might not look too bad, but, unfortunately, there is no way to write how it actually sounds using English alphabet (you can listen to it here). I really have no inkling how should an English speaker even pick out that word in an announcement when looking for their stop. Pronouncing it correctly... Well, good luck with that, but don't feel bad when you fail, and fail, and fail again. English just doesn't have those sounds, it's literally unpronounceable without a huge amount of training.

Also, yes, you should use subway in Moscow. It's much more convenient than a car in 60% of cases at the very least.

So, the point is, knowing what a word means or how it's written is not the same as speaking it.


The link you provided gives me a page written entirely in Cyrillic. My non-Dunyanic brain is having trouble parsing a language I don't even have a baseline understanding off. What button do I even push to satisfy my curiosity? We non-Dunyain need a little actual help from those we are trying to learn from.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2018, 02:36:26 pm »
The ideas and thoughts that SmilerLoki, ToT, Tao, TLEILAXU, and all new member bring have been just outstanding. I for one appreciate it. You too, BFK!
Thanks so much!

The link you provided gives me a page written entirely in Cyrillic. My non-Dunyanic brain is having trouble parsing a language I don't even have a baseline understanding off. What button do I even push to satisfy my curiosity? We non-Dunyain need a little actual help from those we are trying to learn from.
There is a button there that looks like a standard sound indicator. Here's a picture of it:
https://imgur.com/a/JQJRs

Click it to hear the pronunciation.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2018, 03:03:09 pm »
Thank you! I had a distinct feeling you would understand me better than most, precisely because of the fact that you're a non-native speaker (I surmised that from some of your posts) who utilizes English at a native speaker level. I can imagine the amount of time and effort that took.

Well, you were right. :)
It took around 10 years of study in a language school to actually get the highest degree available there. But I did start young (around age 7) and watching cartoons (no dubbing, no subtitles) at a even younger age also helped (even if that might sound silly to some). I'm guessing it was harder for you as you had to switch to a completely new alphabet.


It might sound strange, but I actually agree with him. Unfortunately, some things are what they are. In today's world you have to know English, that's not an option, it's a requirement. Learning languages is thinking wide instead of thinking deep, but translations often become so extremely inconvenient that you simply have to delve into the language or lose crucial pieces of information.

Aside from English being a requirement, I think I do not agree with the general sentiment Bakker expresses there because, to me, learning new languages is never a mistake or a waste of time. But that might be just because it is something I always had an interest in (even if I only learned one foreign language to a degree of fluency).


You are absolutely correct. They spoke Dunyanic. I was considering bringing this point up, but then thought it would be kinda hard to showcase why it's important.

That's the thing, your average Dûnyain should have an even harder time exposed to any language spoken in the Three Seas than your average English speaker (that doesn't speak any other language) exposed to, say, Russian, like in your example below. I'd guess that most English-speaking people have at least heard a couple of Russian words during their lives. For a Dûnyain leaving Ishuäl, everything should have been completely unknown. Kellhus should have found other languages nearly as strange as the existence of sorcery and Nonmen, not have the capacity to learn them at superhuman speed.


Let's say you're a tourist from an English-speaking country, never heard Russian in your life, and want to visit a famous museum, Третьяковская галерея (Tretyakov Gallery). The subway station you need for it is called, unsurprisingly, Третьяковская (Tretyakovskaya). Now, that might not look too bad, but, unfortunately, there is no way to write how it actually sounds using English alphabet (you can listen to it here). I really have no inkling how should an English speaker even pick out that word in an announcement when looking for their stop. Pronouncing it correctly... Well, good luck with that, but don't feel bad when you fail, and fail, and fail again. English just doesn't have those sounds, it's literally unpronounceable without a huge amount of training.

That's an interesting example. And the funny thing is, after I listened to the word spoken aloud, I realized you could try to phonetically spell it in Portuguese and it would be far closer to the original than anything you could try and do with English (a greater similarity of sounds between the two languages, maybe?).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2018, 03:57:45 pm »
It took around 10 years of study in a language school to actually get the highest degree available there. But I did start young (around age 7) and watching cartoons (no dubbing, no subtitles) at a even younger age also helped (even if that might sound silly to some). I'm guessing it was harder for you as you had to switch to a completely new alphabet.
It might have been slightly harder for me, but not by much, I don't think. I vaguely remember learning English alphabet as a child, but I don't actually remember not knowing it. So, from my perspective, I could always read English, though, obviously, not always correctly. Fortunately, Latin script is taught in Russia almost universally, because at least one foreign language is a mandatory part of the standard curriculum. That said, make no mistake, there is absolutely no way to gain even remotely workable knowledge of any language from an average Russian school (however harsh it might sound, that includes Russian). But some of the basics are covered, if nothing else.

I started learning English in earnest in my early twenties, gaining more or less my current level of proficiency around 28. That was all by myself, since I'm not a fan of educational systems (that's more about my personal qualities than leveling critique against them, though there is a healthy bit of the latter, too). Any troubles notwithstanding (and alleviated by dictionaries and textbooks), I read books in English, watched movies and TV in it, and generally used English the way I would my native language. To date, I have taken no exams that would confirm my level of knowledge.

Since I basically learned English to have access to information and entertainment, and that goal was successfully achieved, I never had a need to.

Aside from English being a requirement, I think I do not agree with the general sentiment Bakker expresses there because, to me, learning new languages is never a mistake or a waste of time. But that might be just because it is something I always had an interest in (even if I only learned one foreign language to a degree of fluency).
I see where you're coming from, but that's part of why I agree with Bakker, though for personal reasons. Languages come easy to me, so it seems like a constant repetition of things I already do well. There are other fields where I struggle, and overcoming those struggles offers more to pushing my intellectual limits.

That's the thing, your average Dûnyain should have an even harder time exposed to any language spoken in the Three Seas than your average English speaker (that doesn't speak any other language) exposed to, say, Russian, like in your example below. I'd guess that most English-speaking people have at least heard a couple of Russian words during their lives. For a Dûnyain leaving Ishuäl, everything should have been completely unknown. Kellhus should have found other languages nearly as strange as the existence of sorcery and Nonmen, not have the capacity to learn them at superhuman speed.
Exactly what I meant!

That's an interesting example. And the funny thing is, after I listened to the word spoken aloud, I realized you could try to phonetically spell it in Portuguese and it would be far closer to the original than anything you could try and do with English (a greater similarity of sounds between the two languages, maybe?).
For sure. I don't know a lick of Portuguese, but I've heard it enough times to recognize the way it sounds (thank you, poorly dubbed Brazilian soap operas, I guess?). I can concur, it sounds way closer to Russian than English. I'm quite often able to tell when someone speaks Portuguese, and the same goes for Spanish and Italian, which I also don't know at all, but listened to frequently.

I also feel learning Japanese is easier for a speaker of Russian than a speaker of English. There are just a few sounds in Japanese that don't exist in Russian, and those can still be approximated almost seamlessly.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2018, 04:59:45 pm »
First of all, I think this was a great post
Thank you! I had a distinct feeling you would understand me better than most, precisely because of the fact that you're a non-native speaker (I surmised that from some of your posts) who utilizes English at a native speaker level. I can imagine the amount of time and effort that took.

Not that this means most people in this forum will not think Dûnyain learn languages way too quickly, of course, but I think you can understand what I mean.
Of course!

We actually know for a fact that Bakker doesn't think much of learning new languages (as seen here). And it definitely shows in this part of the story.
It might sound strange, but I actually agree with him. Unfortunately, some things are what they are. In today's world you have to know English, that's not an option, it's a requirement. Learning languages is thinking wide instead of thinking deep, but translations often become so extremely inconvenient that you simply have to delve into the language or lose crucial pieces of information.

And I remember correctly, didn't every single Dûnyain in Ishuäl grow up speaking one single language, that had been the only one anyone in that community spoke for thousands of years? They didn't even have a minimum of exposure to any other language, which makes the whole thing even more unbelievable...
You are absolutely correct. They spoke Dunyanic. I was considering bringing this point up, but then thought it would be kinda hard to showcase why it's important.

A short example for the sake of others, though. Some time ago the Moscow subway (it's called the Moscow Metro) started to provide announcements in English in addition to Russian (probably something to do with this year's soccer World Championship), and I always wondered about the effectiveness of that idea. Let's say you're a tourist from an English-speaking country, never heard Russian in your life, and want to visit a famous museum, Третьяковская галерея (Tretyakov Gallery). The subway station you need for it is called, unsurprisingly, Третьяковская (Tretyakovskaya). Now, that might not look too bad, but, unfortunately, there is no way to write how it actually sounds using English alphabet (you can listen to it here). I really have no inkling how should an English speaker even pick out that word in an announcement when looking for their stop. Pronouncing it correctly... Well, good luck with that, but don't feel bad when you fail, and fail, and fail again. English just doesn't have those sounds, it's literally unpronounceable without a huge amount of training.

Also, yes, you should use subway in Moscow. It's much more convenient than a car in 60% of cases at the very least.

So, the point is, knowing what a word means or how it's written is not the same as speaking it.
Not sure I see the problem. The pronunciation just seems to be "Tretyakovska". I mean, it might be a bit tricky for e.g. an American who only knows one language, but it should be doable.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2018, 05:23:07 pm »
Not sure I see the problem. The pronunciation just seems to be "Tretyakovska". I mean, it might be a bit tricky for e.g. an American who only knows one language, but it should be doable.
Knowing other languages without a doubt offers significant help here.

The problem is with the soft sounds. Russian "е" is not at all like English "e", which would be equivalent to the letter "э" in Russian. The letter "я" has only an approximation in the combination "ya" (it's also pretty close to the vowel sound in the word "young", for example), but it's not quite there, which would be extremely noticeable when trying to pronounce it. The way consonants are softened by adding the letter "ь" after them (that letter is literally translated as "the soft sign") has no analogue in English whatsoever.

And the name is also pronounced fast (it's noticeably slowed down in the example I gave). Not Japanese kind of fast, but enough to blur some syllables to an untrained ear.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2018, 05:58:01 pm »
Not sure I see the problem. The pronunciation just seems to be "Tretyakovska". I mean, it might be a bit tricky for e.g. an American who only knows one language, but it should be doable.
Knowing other languages without a doubt offers significant help here.

The problem is with the soft sounds. Russian "е" is not at all like English "e", which would be equivalent to the letter "э" in Russian. The letter "я" has only an approximation in the combination "ya" (it's also pretty close to the vowel sound in the word "young", for example), but it's not quite there, which would be extremely noticeable when trying to pronounce it. The way consonants are softened by adding the letter "ь" after them (that letter is literally translated as "the soft sign") has no analogue in English whatsoever.

And the name is also pronounced fast (it's noticeably slowed down in the example I gave). Not Japanese kind of fast, but enough to blur some syllables to an untrained ear.
I see. I still think that knowing the transliteration should provide enough information to infer the correct stop being announced on the speakers, but I might be biased since I'm not a monoglot or whatever you call that  :)

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2018, 06:07:04 pm »
I see. I still think that knowing the transliteration should provide enough information to infer the correct stop being announced on the speakers, but I might be biased since I'm not a monoglot or whatever you call that  :)
It's not like it's strictly impossible, it's just going to be hard. Like, legitimately hard. It's subway, there is noise, and many Russian names would blend together for a foreigner even if they are perfectly distinguishable for a native (which they aren't in those circumstances, but the stations are marked by huge letters spelling out their names in, you guessed it, Russian).

Welcome to Moscow.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2018, 06:12:41 pm »
I see. I still think that knowing the transliteration should provide enough information to infer the correct stop being announced on the speakers, but I might be biased since I'm not a monoglot or whatever you call that  :)
It's not like it's strictly impossible, it's just going to be hard. Like, legitimately hard. It's subway, there is noise, and many Russian names would blend together for a foreigner even if they are perfectly distinguishable for a native (which they aren't in those circumstances, but the stations are marked by huge letters spelling out their names in, you guessed it, Russian).

Welcome to Moscow.
ват иф аи кан рид кыриллик?

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2018, 06:17:07 pm »
ват иф аи кан рид кыриллик?
Зен ю ар ин лак!

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2018, 06:29:01 pm »
ват иф аи кан рид кыриллик?
Зен ю ар ин лак!
:D! Аи ню ит вуд кам ин хзнди ван дзи...