Dreams followed. Dark tunnels, weary earth.
A ridge, curved like a sleeping woman’s hip, against the night sky.
And upon it two silhouettes, black against clouds of stars, impossibly bright.
The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest.
And a tree with branches that swept up and out, forking across the bowl of the night.
And about the Nail of Heaven, the stars revolved, like clouds hurried across winter skies.
And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move. The firmament cycled, as though night after night passed without day.
Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth …
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast.
TELL ME …
Whole worlds wailed in terror.
This is an excerpt from when Kellhus is bound to the Circumfix. I remember how intriguing it was for me when he started learning the Gnosis. I don't remember us getting a glimpse of how Kellhus acts (since reacts is not a word he's very much capable of) and assess Seswatha's dreams.
The tree here and the Nail of Haven - is that the tree under which he finds Moenghus (can't remember)? Is that the idea of Moenghus mixed with the No-God, or is it simply... the No-God (crazy I know). Also, the interesting part obviously is reserved for the new trilogy which I haven't read. Who's voice is he hearing? Is he communicating with the God or the No-God or both?
This Vision is perplexing.
Oh, Bhaal. Firstly, I recommend you read the Aspect-Emperor books, so far - if you wait till the next book's release to read them all at once, your head may explode from the awesome ;).
The one thing I can offer is that I don't think Kellhus dreams the Dreams - The Grasping is a ritual that involves Seswatha's Heart and complicated Cants. It is the reason the Mandate dream the Dreams.
Oh yeah, true that about the Grasping. So have I partially correctly suspected that the answers are to be found in the Aspect-Emperor books? Or at least hints...
Quote from: BhaalThe figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest.Like a fallen angel meeting a rising ape (http://noophy.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/its-almost-hogswatch.html).
...
The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast.
I think Kellhus is realising that being a perfectly rationalist-materialist Dunyain is not enough.
Man, I love Pratchett's writing. Its a damn shame about his Alzheimer's.
Bhaal, you can't ask us such questions :P. All & none of your queries are answered in the Aspect-Emperor - in that order ;).
Btw, Duskweaver, I like the sig.
That description is rather confusing to me.
"Dreams followed. Dark tunnels, weary earth."
So wondering around (inside i guess) golgoterath...
"A ridge, curved like a sleeping woman’s hip, against the night sky."
Now we're outside it, and the curved hip nonsense is just a hill right? Not exactly talking about the arc, but rather where its at
"And upon it two silhouettes" ...
The horns.
"...black against clouds of stars, impossibly bright."
Uh the horns are black and the "clouds of stars" are bright. That confused me for a while
"The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest."
So there is some fella sitting near/above/between/in front of the big ship?
"And a tree with branches that swept up and out, forking across the bowl of the night."
Since when where there trees. I thought there where no trees there.
"And about the Nail of Heaven, the stars revolved, like clouds hurried across winter skies."
Shit ton of stars spinning around the Nail. Got that much already.
"Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth …"
Clear No-God reference.
"WHAT DO YOU SEE?"
blah
"The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast."
So this time the silhouette is not Golgotterath but the fella that was sitting like a monkey-priest. Now his arms are priestly (was going to say monkly but that would be confusing) and his legs are the beast [reminds me of sranc a bit]. I guess I can appreciate that inversion but its confusing.
"TELL ME …"
blah blah
"Whole worlds wailed in terror."
Worlds plural. Interesting. [Back, and to the left, there must have been a second spitter.]
Anyone care to tell me if that was about right?
+1. You might have also highlighted the fact that Kellhus' fixed perspective is mentioned.
Quote from: Madness+1. You might have also highlighted the fact that Kellhus' fixed perspective is mentioned.:?:
"And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move."
You broke everything else down so nicely, excepting: seems to me that Kellhus can be neither tree nor monk-like figure.
indeed I did.
"And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move. The firmament cycled, as though night after night passed without day."
Figure.. same guy as before.
Whats with the tree. Oh maybe its back to reality with the tree nonsense. He is seeing the tree that he is hanging from... that could make sense.
Night after night.... could be his repeated waking up at night IRL and always dreaming of the night whilst asleep. So he is spinning around the tree watching the night stars spin around him, and in his dreams the sky continues to turn although (dreaming) he is not moving.
I like the idea of his experience's being shaped by the perspective of his physical vantage.
Quote from: WilshireWhats with the tree.
I figured its thematic reference. Touchs off associations with Yydrigsal and the branching of fate - referencing back to warring for space in his dunyain blade training.(click to show/hide)
Oh ok, I'll write it off as one of those literary things.
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Ooh, don't write it off, homie. +1 for Literary Thing & Thematic Reference. Isolating the narrative's canon connotations is crucial with this one.
We have the twig at the beginning in TDTCB, Prologue. We have plenty of metaphors likening Tusks and Trees - all of them dead, methinks. They all connect directly to Kellhus and indirectly to a number of other Pronouns.
Sorry, Wilshire, I edited in the spoiler tag. I realize Bhaal'd mentioned finishing the series but I've been slacking and falling into bad habits. We, at least, have to try and maintain spoilers relevant to chronological subforums.
D'oh. Sorry!
No worries, Curethan. I noticed yours after the fact, as well.
Crap, this is in WP not TTT. And to think I thought I was being careful.
Lol, cheers.
What's interesting is the part how multiples worlds are apparently terrified of the No-God. Was this something the Inchies tried on other worlds but failed? Because it seems from the Bakker writing we have so far that Shae helped conceive the No-God?
What's interesting is the part how multiples worlds are apparently terrified of the No-God. Was this something the Inchies tried on other worlds but failed? Because it seems from the Bakker writing we have so far that Shae helped conceive the No-God?
It could be that Earwa is special in that the No-God must be manufactured there, but all of sentience feels its presence...
Hm... the Years of the Crib.
I'm still of the opinion that the Xiuhanni are a culture completely dominated by Inchoroi worship. In that case, they might take it as a sign that their Gods walk the mortal realm again?
EkyannusIII might have meant the still born birth thing when the no-god walked. Womb plague would seem to semantically.
No pet theories, EkyannusIII?
All feel the No-God's tug from the horizon. All are stillborn. The Xiuhanni must have reacted.
These posts might have to be moved. I can see us quickly straying into spoilers.(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
I would like to know more about when and how the Scylvendi went to the consult.
I'd still like perspective on how the Scylvendi specifically went from honouring Kiunnat traditions to worshipping a living Lokung (No-God - am I the only one curious as to what Lokung translates into Sheyic as, our Earwa English variant?).Atraithau is anarcane ground. that means the god was there at some point. the scylvendi have long lived in the area. So I'd say Atraithau is anarcane ground because that's where the god of the scylvendi manifested and gave them their new directive.
To bullet-point for my own sake. Essentially, we have:(click to show/hide)
Lol - ranty...
Atraithau is anarcane ground. that means the god was there at some point. the scylvendi have long lived in the area. So I'd say Atraithau is anarcane ground because that's where the god of the scylvendi manifested and gave them their new directive.
Also, note where Skiotha says that the world is a lie that this is a mechanism Kellhus and Moenghus use on Cnaiur, and possibly why Cnaiur was able to untangle the conditioning from Moenghus, the culture of 'doubt' of disbelief in the world is very useful to the Dunyain (and very similar to what they also believe) and would also benefit Cnaiur in giving him avenues of thought that would let him 'doubt' the new world that Moenghus sketched out for him. He doesn't get caught in the web of deceit because scylvendie are inherently taught to suspect all webs.
WLW spoiler:Atraithau is anarcane ground. that means the god was there at some point. the scylvendi have long lived in the area. So I'd say Atraithau is anarcane ground because that's where the god of the scylvendi manifested and gave them their new directive.
That doesn't equate to the "God was there at some point," unless you have evidence.
WLW spoiler:(click to show/hide)
Where the no-god walked (or hovered): Mengedda. Kind of the opposite of anarcane ground, i.e. a Topos.Was it a topos before the NG was slain?
Where the no-god walked (or hovered): Mengedda. Kind of the opposite of anarcane ground, i.e. a Topos.Was it a topos before the NG was slain?
(click to show/hide)
I think his haloes may have started as an illusion but belief begets reality in Earwa. Serwe truly believed then Kellhus did. Saw his own haloes before ripping out his heart.I see this idea a lot but I'm not fully convinced yet. I think belief begetting reality is more a quality of topoi than every day Earwa.
Serwe also sees the halos on the skin spy impersonating Kellhus.Yes
It is my belief that they are not an illusion, but are in fact the effect of Kellhus being anointed by supernatural forces. (Take your pick - TTT, No-god, Solitary God, the 'World Soul' or just the insanity of religion in general leaking through).
She doesn't just see them first, Serwe is the mechanism by which they were placed onto Kellhus.
I'm still not convinced. I think they're an artifact of raw faith. You believe in someone hard enough, you'll see halos.Same thing, to me. .
I'm still not convinced. I think they're an artifact of raw faith. You believe in someone hard enough, you'll see halos.Same thing, to me. .
Thing is, several characters see the same thing without any collusion. Imagine if all schizophrenics heard the same 'voices' and saw the same visual hallucinations.
Scientifically, we would be forced to consider that there was probably something consistent and external underlying the condition.
The 'halo-cinations' come from the outside. Madness is a specific kind of belief, and insanity is described as the outside leaking into Earwa via the soul.
Same thing, to me. .Or something consistent and internal. Some paranoid delusions are far more common than others. My mother works at a mental hospital. A common phenomenon among their patients is "the Terminator thing". The idea that a revolt by intelligent machines is immanent.
Thing is, several characters see the same thing without any collusion. Imagine if all schizophrenics heard the same 'voices' and saw the same visual hallucinations.
Scientifically, we would be forced to consider that there was probably something consistent and external underlying the condition.
The 'halo-cinations' come from the outside. Madness is a specific kind of belief, and insanity is described as the outside leaking into Earwa via the soul.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "objective".