[What Came Before]

However, the White-Luck Warrior is also trapped by his circumstance. The end result determines all of his actions, an inevitable line of events, lacking any personal agency, towards culmination.

It enables Kellhus certain divergent tangents in planning. He could ultimately fabricate the circumstances of the White-Luck Warrior's visions in his favour, provided he had enough knowledge.

Well, Yatwers vision, in plotting this. It depends how extensive her vision is?

Also it doesn't say very much about the free will of the Earwa people - shouldn't such a prediction be impossible to begin with, because someone with free will would just do something contrary to the prediction? The thugs in the alley just decide to give it a miss that day and so the WLW doesn't get his sword notched? Etc?

[What Came Before]

Has there been a discussion about free will in Earwa? Does it exist there?

[What Came Before]

Nevertheless, their burgeoned power depends on the mastery of the principles of reason and logic rather than the accumulation of knowledge.
The progress they have made is based on the principles they follow. 
For example, knowledge of sorcery and the outside is considered an impediment, therefore it has been removed rather than grasped.
Again, other speculations are merely that.  In this case I'm proceeding from the data as presented.

As long as they exist in the world, the Dunyain can't really expect to create a closed system in Ishual, can they? Anything is a candidate for inclusion in circumstance, so wouldn't they want to master everything? I know Kellhus says that history is anathema to the Dunyain, but it is still a player so long as they exist.

If one did attain the absolute in seclusion, it would be tainted as soon as they came into the world.

The idea as I understand it is to condition a closed system in order to develop the principles and techniques required to condition any system.
Ishual is like an egg.

The Absolute would be all encompasing by definition.

[What Came Before]

+1 Meyna. I don't think so... but many of us didn't think the Gods existed until TJE.

Damn... posting before I'm ready.

+1 Meyna, also, on the Dunyain cannot achieve the Self-Moving soul at Ishual. The Project is inherently flewred.

I am only clarifying my inference. Contradict me, by all means.
At the least, the claim seems to be that he needs power so he can get more power.

As I understand it, Kellhus only seeks the power of sorcery after the consult is revealed. As a tool, rather than an end in itself.

My claim would be... I'm not sure, that he seeks to master the variables that are capable of affecting fundamental change in the world?

Also, Kellhus seeks the Gnosis based on Moenghus being Cishaurim, before the Consult are discovered, if I recall correctly... but you might be right.

Fair enough. I think the timetable for the No-god's return might have been mentioned elsewhere though. As is the proposition that the Tekne is strictly a science of material propogation.

I'm not sure how that second statement is founded. In the WHCB excerpt you pulled there, it says the Mangaecca mastered the Tekne - lies, lies, and damned lies... I think its more than just materials that keeps them from reincarnating the No-God.

The premises are the self moving soul and the darkness of causality. Its an inductive arguement as far as I am concerned, based on the principle that the dunyain removed themselves from history in order to incubate the former. Speculations aside, the dunyain quest does not brook the slightest contamination. Those contaminated by the Darkness are eliminated.

...

The most straightforward speculative explanation for Moenghus and Kellhus' exile over execution is that, as fully conditioned prodigies, they had enough potential to become SMS(self moving souls) despite contamination.
After Kellhus has his revelation and becomes 'more than dunyain' he either conditions the future or is conditioned by the past.

The self-moving soul is impossible in Ishual... if anything, the Dunyain's "inclusive history" inside Ishual is more confounding than any history outside of its walls.

Also, your second paragraph there suggests that the Dunyain know that they can't achieve a self-moving soul in Ishual.

The most straightforward explanation would be that Moenghus and Kellhus are both sent into the world and conditioned by another, neh?

Nevertheless, their burgeoned power depends on the mastery of the principles of reason and logic rather than the accumulation of knowledge.
The progress they have made is based on the principles they follow.
For example, knowledge of sorcery and the outside is considered an impediment, therefore it has been removed rather than grasped.
Again, other speculations are merely that. In this case I'm proceeding from the data as presented.

+1... but sorcery is just a tool, a means, not an end. I'm not sure, Curethan, our reasonings strike awkwardly in my mind.

For instance, if the Onkis, let's say, is the Darkness then it would make sense that Kellhus has to master the Outside to become self-moving.

I just don't see how you don't see that the Tekne is a ready-made tool for Kellhus to do things with that no one, not even the Inchoroi at their best, could do...

Not the gods, the God as presented in Inrithi tradition. I.e. immanent in history. As explained by Serwa and Moe Jr to Sorweel.

I, personally, wouldn't take those two at their word.

Perhaps the above will serve to clarify my position, but I suspect I lack either some fundamental insight and/or the ability to properly express myself over this matter, so I will probably leave the discussion here.

No worries, Curethan, I feel the slight clashing too. It's all good. Deep breathes. I think your position is pretty clear - I just don't agree - and neither do I think you lack insight or the ability to express yourself. But feel free to tap out. We're dreadfully off-topic anyhow .

[What Came Before]

Concerning the potential of Kellhus fabricating the circumstances surrounding the visions of the WLW... We could compare (a) the future stabbing of Kellhus by the WLW to the discussions concerning (b) the stabbing of Moenghus the elder by Kellhus at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. In the latter case, several have speculated on the possibility that Moenghus fabricated the circumstances surrounding the stabbing event in order to futher his cause.

[What Came Before]

Wow... incepted (Lol, that's actually a word... I was playing off Inception).

+1 Galbrod.

[What Came Before]

No worries, Curethan, I feel the slight clashing too. It's all good. Deep breathes. I think your position is pretty clear - I just don't agree - and neither do I think you lack insight or the ability to express yourself. But feel free to tap out. We're dreadfully off-topic anyhow .

A conflict of assumptions, perhaps.  No problems, I'm more comfortable as a heretic than an iconoclast.   :twisted:

----

Tell you what though, the Tekne might come on very handy in foiling the WLW - get a Skin Spy or a clone to take the assassin's notched blade in Kellhus' stead.

Has there been a discussion about free will in Earwa? Does it exist there?

I believe the logos represents free will.  But I'm pretty much alone on that from what I remember of previous discussions, 

[What Came Before]

Inonoclast away !

[What Came Before]

Has there been a discussion about free will in Earwa? Does it exist there?

I believe the logos represents free will.  But I'm pretty much alone on that from what I remember of previous discussions, 

I'm actually inclined to agree with you there. The goal of the Dunyain can be thought of in terms of free will. The Logos permits one to act in free will to different degrees, and attaining the absolute means that one has the ability to practice free will in all cases.

As for attaining a self-moving soul in Ishual, perhaps the strategy is, as Curethan suggested, to attain such a state in minimalist conditions first, and then extend it to more complicated systems until the conditioned system includes the whole universe.

The WLW could pose such a test for Kellhus, to see if he has conditioned a system with a complication at a level which is more complicated than dominating the typical players in the holy war, which is more complicated still than the bastion of Ishual. A stepping stone to the complicated system that is the Inchoroi and the Second Apocalypse.

[What Came Before]

Indeed, Meyna.
The Circumfixion was the point where control over the variables escaped Moenghus.  The question is whether it defeated Khellus or empowered him.
I kinda saw that as the tipping point of obtaining the Absolute.

I like the idea of WLW and the machinations of the gods being the next level.

The consult themselves are striving for something different though, I think.  The antithesis of the self moving - the unmovable soul.

[What Came Before]

Tell you what though, the Tekne might come on very handy in foiling the WLW - get a Skin Spy or a clone to take the assassin's notched blade in Kellhus' stead.

Dune Dune Dune
Dune Dune
DuneDuneDuneDune

I believe the logos represents free will.  But I'm pretty much alone on that from what I remember of previous discussions, 

hrrm, and here I was taking the logos to be God, and the universe to be the uttering of the logos.

Which if you think about it make the word of god, and the world basically the same thing.

Also has a nice meta thing going for it.  The word of God (RSB) when written down creates the world Earwa.  The writing of the book is the world, the world is the utterance.

In the Beginning was the Logos...
And the Logos was God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_(Christianity)

[What Came Before]

The Logos is whatever you see when the water clears, when you finally get rid of all the mud.

The soul/mind is a muddy pool, your thoughts rising to the surface from unseen depths. The water is the mind/soul itself. The mud is all the stuff that clutters it up and stops you seeing the bottom, the place where your thoughts come from: The silts of history, the filth of superstitious fears, the clinging ooze the Buddhists call 'attachment to worldly things', and so on.

The point of enlightenment is to clear the water by removing the mud.

But you cannot know what you'll find at the bottom until you get there. Buddhists think it's compassion (Inrau thinks it's Onkis). The Dunyain, like some in our world, seem to think it's rational self-interest. Other people call it 'God'. Any or all of these things might just be their own sort of obscuring mud.

Kellhus, as a Dunyain, already threw out the mud of compassion. His time on the Circumfix seems to have broken him of his attachment to rational self-interest. As he told his father, "I am more [than Dunyain]".

Maybe he's found the real bottom. Or maybe not. Maybe there is no bottom, merely layers and layers of different sediments all the way down, each one a revelation. Maybe God is the mud. Or the water.

This is only the Second Apocalypse, after all. You expect the whole Truth to be seen with only two unveilings? Even exotic dancers get seven!

[What Came Before]

The WLW could pose such a test for Kellhus, to see if he has conditioned a system with a complication at a level which is more complicated than dominating the typical players in the holy war, which is more complicated still than the bastion of Ishual. A stepping stone to the complicated system that is the Inchoroi and the Second Apocalypse.

+1. But does that mean the White-Luck Warrior is a favour to Kellhus, making sure he is, in fact, ready?

The Circumfixion was the point where control over the variables escaped Moenghus.

...

I kinda saw that as the tipping point of obtaining the Absolute.

Tackling as parts.

Firstly, I don't think the variables escaped Moenghus and I think he showed his hand, and, perhaps, Kellhus' first false rationalization.

I will just repost from the Cishaurim thread[/u], what I think is my main piece of evidence for Moenghus playing Kellhus in their conversation in TTT.

"I bear a message from your Father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.'" p.579, TWP

[This is Hifanat ab Tunukri of Moenghus' sect of Cishaurim - he also mentions this nugget: "We see you. All of us." ... "All of us who serve him - the Possessors of the Third Sight."]

"Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable ... This," the eyeless face said, "was where the Probability Trance failed me..." p.338, TTT LE

[This if one of the few times that Moenghus "validates" what Kellhus describes as Moenghus' Journey. I think Moenghus is lying.]

"How," his father finally said, "could you know this?"
"Because I know why you were compelled to summon me."
Scrutiny. Calculation.
"So you have grasped it."
"Yes ... the Thousandfold Thought." p. 340, TTT LE

[This ends a chapter, a revelatory moment, and Moenghus, from Kellhus' perspective, acts surprised by what is not new knowledge.]

Moenghus lied to Kellhus in TTT and Kellhus seems deceived by this.

"His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it." p.374, TTT LE

Except it seems the Conditioned Ground was Moenghus' that day. In TWP, he explicitly lets his son know that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought but then, in the conversation in TTT, he does not mention it until Kellhus does, even though he knows Kellhus has indeed grasped the Thought.

Secondly, wouldn't Kellhus' apokalypsis on the Circumfix indicate an initial level of grasping revelation, like Meyna suggests, rather than total comprehension?

- lockesnow

Dune Dune Dune
Dune Dune
DuneDuneDuneDune

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Except that I'd hazard that if there is to a be parallel in Kellhus/Leto's Death, it's that their personal deaths were always part of the plan.

EDIT: On that note, what would happen if they made a Grasping Ritual out of Kellhus' heart!?

+1 for Thoughts, Duskweaver.

[What Came Before]

In the Beginning was the Logos...
And the Logos was God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_(Christianity)

But in the beginning of all life there is a water. WATER!

Go Meppa!

[What Came Before]

The Logos is whatever you see when the water clears, when you finally get rid of all the mud.

The soul/mind is a muddy pool, your thoughts rising to the surface from unseen depths. The water is the mind/soul itself. The mud is all the stuff that clutters it up and stops you seeing the bottom, the place where your thoughts come from: The silts of history, the filth of superstitious fears, the clinging ooze the Buddhists call 'attachment to worldly things', and so on.

The point of enlightenment is to clear the water by removing the mud.

But you cannot know what you'll find at the bottom until you get there. Buddhists think it's compassion (Inrau thinks it's Onkis). The Dunyain, like some in our world, seem to think it's rational self-interest. Other people call it 'God'. Any or all of these things might just be their own sort of obscuring mud.

Kellhus, as a Dunyain, already threw out the mud of compassion. His time on the Circumfix seems to have broken him of his attachment to rational self-interest. As he told his father, "I am more [than Dunyain]".

Maybe he's found the real bottom. Or maybe not. Maybe there is no bottom, merely layers and layers of different sediments all the way down, each one a revelation. Maybe God is the mud. Or the water.

This is only the Second Apocalypse, after all. You expect the whole Truth to be seen with only two unveilings? Even exotic dancers get seven!

This is all very well thought out and it makes me ponder quite a bit.  Where I think this perhaps has a built in limitation is that it is all about the Me and the I.  One of the keys Kellhus decides in TTT is that 'they are not equal' following the path of rational self interest is not equal to keeping alive the whole world because if the cost of the latter is the former, then the former should be sacrificed to the latter.  Spock. Wrath of Kahn. 

And I think that plays into Bakker's comments that he feels like one of the great failings of literature is how the community around elite literature, the community around elite philosophy are insular little Ishual communities.  They are "advancing" but only in an extremely limited--perhaps crippled--sense because their advancement is contingent upon being cut off from the world.  Literature is no longer out in the world.  Philosophy is no longer out in the world.  And Bakker is quite clear that he thinks these approaches mean the long term extinction (or irrelevance) of both.

In this sense, we could perhaps see the Dunyain's mission when isolated from the world as a failure.

That in other words, The limitations of the Logos as you outlined it seem to eliminate the concept of being part of a community in favor of the advancement of the one. 

I'm wondering if maybe the Logos is not just self-enlightenment but community-enlightenment.

And that concept of community-enlightenment sort of plays into another of Bakker's pet projects of how the Singularity will be another information revolution ala the renaissance, industrial revolution, and information/computer revolution.