The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:26:11 pm
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I've already started this type of threads about the Nonmen and the Inchoroi, so let's move on to the most fascinating "culture" (if they can be called such) in the Bakker-verse.
How do you think Dûnyain society looks like? Do they live as the monastic sects did in the real-life middle ages? Do they have any hobbies or "normal" life at all, or do they dedicate every moment of their lives toward achieving the Absolute?
What role do women have, since we haven't seen Dûnyain women at all, aside from the prologue in TDTCB?
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To port my comments from the Interlude: Ishual thread in The Unholy Consult:
Ishual is the City from the Republic.
Who are the Philosopher-Kings? The Pragma?
What classes are there besides the Guardian class? Is Kellhus one of these, as would be my Nerdanelized theory about a Dunyain who conditions Ishterebinth, so as to better condition the very world? If so, is he bound by the Myth of the Metals, or does his training reflect standing outside the lie?
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Ishual is the City from the Republic.
Good one. Platonism certainly comes to mind if we look at the Dûnyain's life philosophy.
Who are the Philosopher-Kings? The Pragma?
I guess? Ishuäl seems to be ruled by a council of those with the highest intelligence and best eugenic breeding, which would probably be the Pragma. The first chapter of TDTCB opens with the elders of Ishuäl gathering and deciding to eliminate Moenghus, so it's them who call the shots.
If so, is he bound by the Myth of the Metals, or does his training reflect standing outside the lie?
Well, the Myth of the Metals was rather meant to be a fiction that teaches each person his role in society - a social control, in other words. I don't think the Dûnyain even need to use this kind of fiction, since they make people (through eugenics and social conditioning) to fit those roles.
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It's like Cnaiur's musings of Kellhus/The Warrior-Propeht in TTT - perfect analogy: it's not a fiction from inside the lie, right?
We could equate it to... the Myth of Utility?
Unfortunately, there are blindsiding factors too. Are there other Dunyain cities? Did the Dunyain disperse from Sauglish in more than one direction (again remnant thoughts of Foundation/Second Foundation ;)).
In the Republic, assumptively, woman could become Philosopher-Queens. However, the argument goes that perhaps they are simply there for breeding. Are there Dunyain woman with agency like Serwa or are they like axolotl tanks, defectives?
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It's like Cnaiur's musings of Kellhus/The Warrior-Propeht in TTT - perfect analogy: it's not a fiction from inside the lie, right?
Tr00 dat.
We could equate it to... the Myth of Utility?
I first thought about the classic Myth of the Cave, the constructed reality and all that, but the Myth of Utility probably fits better.
Unfortunately, there are blindsiding factors too. Are there other Dunyain cities? Did the Dunyain disperse from Sauglish in more than one direction (again remnant thoughts of Foundation/Second Foundation ;)).
Probably not. My guess is that the Ishuäl Dûnyain are the only ones.
In the Republic, assumptively, woman could become Philosopher-Queens. However, the argument goes that perhaps they are simply there for breeding. Are there Dunyain woman with agency like Serwa or are they like axolotl tanks, defectives?
Well, knowing Bakker, they're probably breeding stock.
Jokes aside, I don't know. I'd assume the women have to be intelligent as well, if they want them to produce intelligent kids (since Kellhus chooses his wife due to her brains, it's reasonable to think the Dûnyain at home would pick their mates in the same way). There are definitely strict gender roles in Ishuäl, since we don't ever see Dûnyain men and women interacting - the young Kellhus' classmates are all male.
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Lol, I analogize the Myth of the Cave to this story as inversion suggesting that Ishual is the light of the Sun and Kellhus is descending back into the Cave, the world, to... well, play with the shapes cast by the fire and control those imprisoned in the world of Shadows but... segue ;).
Many people have suggested other Dunyain settlements. EDIT: I'd make the comparison that the First Foundation was represented by a visible physical location, whereas the Second Foundation was more a location in mind?
The Full-Blooded Female Dunyain has got to be something Bakker's got on lock. Maybe Achamian and Mimara meet female Dunyain in Ishual.
They are too much like the Bene Gesserit to suggest that woman wouldn't make powerful Dunyain.
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well from the Andiamine Heights chapter of TDTCB (the kellhus training flashbacks we know that)
Pragma are a group of senior Dunyain
Kellhus is summoned to a shrine that is stripped of ornamentation.
Kellhus' training of eliminating one word a day takes place at this shrine.
The Dunyain think the stars revolve around the world.
A bee makes an appearance, so they have access to honey, presumably, and other pollinated plants.
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Cheers, lockesnow.
From the Unmasking Room, TWP:
"They stood deep beneath Ishual, in a hexagonal room within the mighty galleries of the Thousand Thousand Halls. Save for the entrance, staggered racks of knobbed and runnelled candles covered the surrounding wallas, shedding a light without shadows and as bright and clear as the noonday's sun. This alone made the room extraordinary - light was otherwise forbidding in the Labyrinth - but what made the room astonishing were the many men shackled in its sunken centre" (TWP, p461)
My italics. Say what?
Sound like sorcerous light to anyone else?
But for social reference: "mighty galleries, forbidden light, and defectives."
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Kellhus misses much when he never expects to see, doesn't he?
Candles are the worst sort of light, they are never stable and they'd never provide a light like that.
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Kellhus is summoned to a shrine that is stripped of ornamentation.
I found this part interesting - they've not only shut in themselves from the outside world, but also destroyed all signs of that world inside Ishuäl. Everything that's not practical to the Dûnyain has to go.
The Dunyain think the stars revolve around the world.
You'd think they were too smart to believe that the earth is the universe's center, although it's understandable since they're such an insular sect and never had access to the Inchoroi know-how that the Nonmen had.
(Maybe it's something they deliberately believe, though. It's definitely in line with their "man is the measure of everything" philosophy. We already know that the Dûnyain convinced themselves that sorcery doesn't exist.)
A bee makes an appearance, so they have access to honey, presumably, and other pollinated plants.
Well, yeah, they have to get their food from somewhere. Medieval monks were also beekeepers.
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Candles are the worst sort of light, they are never stable and they'd never provide a light like that.
+1, my thoughts exactly.
I found this part interesting - they've not only shut in themselves from the outside world, but also destroyed all signs of that world inside Ishuäl. Everything that's not practical to the Dûnyain has to go.
This also made explicit from the Prologue, neh? I always wonder if the Pragma didn't withhold secret knowledge or if they've recovered knowledge since the Obfuscation?
insular sect and never had access to the Inchoroi know-how that the Nonmen had.
I think they'd have had to consciously refute that knowledge, arguably - if they were truly just a fledgling monastic cult in Sauglish before the Apocalypse; Sauglish is the intellectual center of the Ancient World and the site of the Nonmen Tutelage.
How about cultivating grains or grasses in high altitudes? Nuts?
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This also made explicit from the Prologue, neh? I always wonder if the Pragma didn't withhold secret knowledge or if they've recovered knowledge since the Obfuscation?
Well, judging by how the Dûnyain regarded sorcery (destroying all evidence of it, then pretending it doesn't exist), it's rather unlikely that the Pragma have recovered knowledge from pre-Dûnyain times that wasn't purely practical to them. If it's superfluous and/or irrelevant to the Dûnyain quest for absolute enlightenment, they shut it out of existence.
I think they'd have had to consciously refute that knowledge, arguably - if they were truly just a fledgling monastic cult in Sauglish before the Apocalypse; Sauglish is the intellectual center of the Ancient World and the site of the Nonmen Tutelage.
True, Sauglish was the big intellectual capital of the Ancient North, but my impression was that only the ruling classes were actually tutored by the Nonmen. The kings, caste-nobles, priests, schoolmen, and so on. Sure, some of this knowledge would've trickled down to the whole population, but I'm pretty sure the Average Joe didn't have his head full of Nonman knowledge about the cosmos. The average dudes in Sauglish can't have been that different from their Three Seas counterparts. The average Athenian was hardly a Plato. (And I'm pretty sure that the Dûnyain were just normal people, not drawn from the highest caste-nobility.)
Akka also mentions that Sauglish in ye olde days was a favorite hotspot for wandering cults and doomsday preachers and crazed religious loons of all sorts. I imagine the early Dûnyain belonged to this social category.
How about cultivating grains or grasses in high altitudes? Nuts?
Probably. An isolated cult can be pretty self-suffient, if they know how. Medieval monasteries had gardens where they grew grains and nuts and fruit-trees - the monks could produce honey, bread, beer and other stuff in relative isolation.
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Long-term goals of the Dunyain, within Ishual exclusively, sit uneasy with me - it seems they can't succeed by only planning for Ishual. Some Protocol, Mandate, or Missive, must continue to direct them.
Lmao, Dunyain Nostradamus ;)? "Open, When Ishual's Second Son Lives Among The Worldborn."
The Dunyain had already been cultivating a disembodied rationality for X# of years - recall the prologue "with a voice, neither tender nor harsh, said 'We are Dunyain, child'" or some such ;).
Vocalizing musculature is a motor function like anything else. I do agree with your conjecture on soothsayers, madmen, and Dunyain but you'd think if they weren't planning for the world ending next friday, they must have had practical objectives in Sauglish. Wouldn't they also make a much use of the Library as is publically accessible?
What are your thoughts on the candles, Auriga? I don't believe we can omit occluded ulterior abilities or knowledge of the Dunyain?
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Long-term goals of the Dunyain, within Ishual exclusively, sit uneasy with me - it seems they can't succeed by only planning for Ishual. Some Protocol, Mandate, or Missive, must continue to direct them.
Possibly. It's just that I find it unlikely that the Dûnyain would keep around non-practical knowledge from earlier times, since they're so strict about insulating themselves from all "polluting" outside influences.
The Dunyain had already been cultivating a disembodied rationality for X# of years - recall the prologue "with a voice, neither tender nor harsh, said 'We are Dunyain, child'" or some such ;).
Ha, I forgot about that part. They were definitely practicing their ultra-rational philosophy for a long time before they came to Ishual, since they were controlling their voices and such. Scött mentioned that the Dûnyain were a sometimes-persecuted group from Sauglish, so I tend to imagine them as early Christians hiding out in the catacombs. (For all I know, this might even be the reason why they survived the Consult attack on Sauglish pretty intact).
V I do agree with your conjecture on soothsayers, madmen, and Dunyain but you'd think if they weren't planning for the world ending next friday, they must have had practical objectives in Sauglish. Wouldn't they also make a much use of the Library as is publically accessible?
I dunno. Maybe. I'm not sure they had any "objectives" in Sauglish, other than converting people to the Logos and doing what religious cults usually do in cities. Yeah, they'd probably have access to the Library, if they were literate (which they definitely were) although I still think the Dûnyain were drawn from ordinary people and not members of the Nonman-educated ruling castes.
Sauglish was a magnet for wandering nutcases and street soothsayers, a bit like the New York subway - the early Dûnyain would have been just one weird cult among several dozens.
What are your thoughts on the candles, Auriga?
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and a candle is just a candle.
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compare to primitive swiss communities high in the alpines, they usually cultivated rye, iirc, along with a major dairy component to provide most/much of their calories since fruit&veggies don't preserve as well as cheese/butter.
The dunyain have also preserved the knowledge of how to manufacture steel and how to manufacture candles.
Going back to the scene at the shrine, anyone think there is another test in there that Kellhus knew nothing about because he didn't pass it/wasn't attuned to it? This may be part of the test where they slot candidates into learning tracks, and Kellhus got tracked into the warrior track.
I'm speaking of the contradiction between three things. Kellhus tells us they knew when a leaf would fall in Ishual--at the end of his week at the shrine he stops a knife using the sense of nothingness he grasped in the week of meditation, he then notes he hears the leaves whisper to him and he immediately dismisses the leaves as nothing but noise as he exults in his sense of self and pride at being dunyain (this is the opposite of the nothingness/placelessness that allowed him to stop the knife)--throughout the novels kellhus constantly exults in his pride at being dunyain at being superior at being a being, again, hardly the nothingness that the lesson supposedly taught him. He takes a lesson from Leweth--and the lesson he learns is that he should be proud of how fucking awesome he is. Also note how all of Kellhus' answers to the pragma seem to be triggered, is he really thinking this or is the pragma testing him to see if he can still be manipulated by the simple questions to give simple answers reflexively, without thought--and note that Kellhus' answers all play into the prideful, dominate-dominate-dominate, narrative of dunyain awesomeness, which is pretty much the opposite of any eastern monk tradition of zen/buddhism etc which negate the self--supposedly this is all a lesson about negating the self, but in negating the self kellhus manages to congratulate himself and exult in himself for negating the self--sounds like he failed.
so we have the nothingness, the tree whispers and one more thing in the scene of his training. The scene starts with a bee supposedly wandering in, as bees are wont to do.
um. no.
If they know when a leaf will fall, they know the path a bee will take. But kellhus doesn't cup the bee or the bee's path in his awareness, he barely notices it is there, he dismisses it as more noise.
My theory is that the bee and the trees are part of the other test layered into the first test. The candidates who more closely grasp the absolute--in classical german thought, the Absolute was a term used to mean 'everything in nature'--will realize that the bee and the trees and all the other things they can sense all contribute meaning and have to be accounted for, these candidates will be put into a very different track than the path kellhus was put into.
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unrelated to the above. Why did Moenghus want to cross the steppe? what was his mission? where was he going? He does not seem to have a purposelessness, where did his shortest path point him?
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+1 Auriga, excepting "a cigar is just a cigar." I think not :P! All cigars in my world follow the patented acme programming and blow the fuck up before I finish them ;).
Going back to the scene at the shrine, anyone think there is another test in there that Kellhus knew nothing about because he didn't pass it/wasn't attuned to it? This may be part of the test where they slot candidates into learning tracks, and Kellhus got tracked into the warrior track.
I like the thought and feeds into my thought that if Ishual is analogous to the City from the Republic than the Dunyain we've seen are the Guardian caste.
EDIT: I made some mention to Moenghus' purpose in the Almanac thread when Cnaiur is recalling Moenghus' time with the Utemot; Meonghus doesn't seem at all like the leaf blown in the wind, he seems to have direction.
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Kellhus misses much when he never expects to see, doesn't he?
Candles are the worst sort of light, they are never stable and they'd never provide a light like that.
You forget that Dunyain candles are badass candles! They are steel candles to your bronze candles!
No, I don't think they'd strip the sorcerous runes from the place, but just hope no one notices the light in the unmasking room.
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In rereading it, I instantly thought Diurnal, except it's multiple points of light, but then I thought Seswatha in the Dreaming Coffers.
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More thoughts on candles! Maybe the Dunyain couldn't actually affect the destruction of all sorceries in Ishual - they're a fixture; the light simply turn on when someone enters the rooms because Ishual was built that way.
But seriously:
I'd like to go into the question of the Dunyain and gender, but believe it or not, the issue has a significant role to play in the greater story of the Second Apocalypse - I think I need to turn this 'no-answer answer' into a macro or something! Sorry Laughing
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Like the axlotl tanks. The Dunyain Women are actually the Non(wo)men, or at least have been bred as such...
Good thought about the lights. We know that wards and other things maintain enchantments without their caster and can stay inside objects.
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I'll be sorely disappointed if there aren't some kick-ass Dunyain women.
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I agree. Kellhus 'appears' to have no issue with granting world-born women the rights of men, so (cautiously) there appears to be no gender bias in the dunyain mentality. Although, having said that, in all of Kel's flashbacks, never has there been mentioned a female character, so my previous assumption might be dead before it's even breathing. Or maybe there's just a strict segregation policy in Ishual, but based on what stipulations are anyone's guess.
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hi all. long time stalker, first time poster.
On lunch break at work... so need to make it quick.
Earlier in this thread, there were a few comments on how the stars circle the world. At face value, it seems like a silly notion, and the thought follows that there obviously must be plenty of other things they don't know or understand due to their isolation.
BUT
Don't we know there is something different about this planet? Isn't that why the Inchies are here?
Is it possible this is an early seed planted to indicate the significance of this "crash-landing" spot for the Inchies?
Maybe the stars really DO circle around the world. Maybe this is how the Inchies knew it was special, unique, or whatever they used to describe the significance of it.
What does that mean to story? No clue.
I'm sure someone can turn it into a rectal reference though, with very little effort...
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Yeah I'm pretty firmly in the camp that Earwa is literally in the center of the Bakkerverse, which, for whatever reason, is part of why sorcery only works there.
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Like the axlotl tanks.
I'm really not sure how I would feel about this... I very much got the genderlessness feel from the OG Dunyain with the Bastard at Ishual. I would be less surprised if the Dunyain Women were like the Honoured Matres at this point.
Both would be difficult for Bakker to tackle properly.
I'd also like Fish Speakers but... I'm pretty dead-set on the Plato's Guardians comparison.
I agree. Kellhus 'appears' to have no issue with granting world-born women the rights of men, so (cautiously) there appears to be no gender bias in the dunyain mentality. Although, having said that, in all of Kel's flashbacks, never has there been mentioned a female character, so my previous assumption might be dead before it's even breathing. Or maybe there's just a strict segregation policy in Ishual, but based on what stipulations are anyone's guess.
I hazard the bold. I'm sure that manipulative sexual intercourse is a natural extension of Dunyain training - and Kellhus doesn't behave exactly chaste when he gets to the Three-Seas. Thus, the mention of the Honoured Matres above, if you've had later book Dune exposure. Basically, you never had an orgasm like you have an orgasm with a Dunyain.
hi all. long time stalker, first time poster.
On lunch break at work... so need to make it quick.
Earlier in this thread, there were a few comments on how the stars circle the world. At face value, it seems like a silly notion, and the thought follows that there obviously must be plenty of other things they don't know or understand due to their isolation.
BUT
Don't we know there is something different about this planet? Isn't that why the Inchies are here?
Is it possible this is an early seed planted to indicate the significance of this "crash-landing" spot for the Inchies?
Maybe the stars really DO circle around the world. Maybe this is how the Inchies knew it was special, unique, or whatever they used to describe the significance of it.
What does that mean to story? No clue.
I'm sure someone can turn it into a rectal reference though, with very little effort...
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Ishammael. I think many of us would agree that there seems something 'central' to Earwa in the Void, possibly, but in the relationship to the outside, likely. However, our stars appear to circle the Earth too.
I'm not sure where exactly locke got that idea about Dunyain thinking the stars revolve around Earwa - there's the Logos meditation in TDTCB and the No-God hallucinations in TWP. But I'd guess locke just meant to mark that the Dunyain haven't figured beyond Geocentrism yet? Though, I'd think that a Geocentric Universe makes a measure of sense... But then I'd think the Inchoroi were markedly stupid to not get a general orientation towards a Universal and Metaphysical World-Tree plugging the hole to the Outside at the center of the Universe.
Hrm...
Yeah I'm pretty firmly in the camp that Earwa is literally in the center of the Bakkerverse, which, for whatever reason, is part of why sorcery only works there.
But why?! I can't accept things at face value.
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Well, I'm not either, I suppose I should say it's more of a strong suspicion. But it just makes a lot of sense to me that Earwa is in the center of the Bakkerverse, going with the general theme of the series (anthropocentrism made real). I've considered before that it has to do with the whole "spheres of objectivity" thing. The Universe itself is largely objective, the Outside goes further out in levels, but then the center of the universe is some kind of mega-topoi or something.
ETA: As the poster above said, it would also explain why/how the Inchoroi found Earwa.
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I don't know how I feel about Earwa being at the center, but I like the idea of the Mega-Topoi. In all the Grounds the Inchoroi encountered before Earwa, they never discovered sorcery, right? Something on Earwa, or the Outside, pushed or rent the boundaries between, long long ago.
But that's a bit off topic I suppose.
So if Bakker says gender in Dunyain society is relevant...how? Did Kellhus destroy Ishual and herd the women to Ishterebinth for a breeding program? Assuming they're just as intelligent and rational as any male Dunyain we've met, Kellhus could have laid out some grand plan for them involving the attainment of the absolute through crossbreeding and elimination of the Consult. Could that be how he got Nil'giccas to work with the scalpers?
Of course, I don't know how to fit that with his meeting with Nin'sarricas. Shit, I don't know how to fit any of this together.
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The Universe itself is largely objective, the Outside goes further out in levels, but then the center of the universe is some kind of mega-topoi or something.
ETA: As the poster above said, it would also explain why/how the Inchoroi found Earwa.
I would agree except that Bakker made the distinction between the Outside, layers of desire onion, and the Void, where the Inchoroi actually traveled.
Something on Earwa, or the Outside, pushed or rent the boundaries between, long long ago.
+1. Golgotterath is by its nature the deepest Topoi in Earwa. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Ark crashing was the distinctive factor? For instance, had the Inchoroi landed anywhere, they would have rent the World to the Outside?
But on that line of thinking, I'd hazard that the Nonmen enslaving the Emwama in their Nimil mines is original crack (Original Sin?).
But that's a bit off topic I suppose.
So if Bakker says gender in Dunyain society is relevant...how? Did Kellhus destroy Ishual and herd the women to Ishterebinth for a breeding program? Assuming they're just as intelligent and rational as any male Dunyain we've met, Kellhus could have laid out some grand plan for them involving the attainment of the absolute through crossbreeding and elimination of the Consult. Could that be how he got Nil'giccas to work with the scalpers?
Of course, I don't know how to fit that with his meeting with Nin'sarricas. Shit, I don't know how to fit any of this together.
Lol, you're doing fine, Wic - I don't really understand this outrageous bar that's been set as to what qualifies as 'content' around here and stops people from posting. The worst that can happen is that content-generating participation will change you more quickly than simply active-reading participation...
Firstly, I think Bakker's commentary alludes to how the Dunyain organized themselves before the events of the novels, in the two thousand year interim. As suggested by Somnambulist, Kellhus has absolutely no hesitation in using the Female Few to discharge the war against Golgotterath, which might reflect something of Ishual's gender relations.
Aside, to be quite honest, I'm not very convinced by arguments as to why Kellhus would destroy Ishual rather than recruit from them. And we'll know in all of five minutes reading the first chapter because Achamian is going to tell us whether or not sorcery was used to destroy the mountain fastness.
My personal guess is still Wutteat on his way back to Golgotterath.
EDIT: As to your question, Nil'giccas was probably wandering, murdering Sranc as per his mantra as Incariol, and when Kosoter ran into him, Kellhus had prepared Kosoter with information to ensnare Nil'giccas, promising to tell Incariol who he actually is.
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Something on Earwa, or the Outside, pushed or rent the boundaries between, long long ago.
+1. Golgotterath is by its nature the deepest Topoi in Earwa. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Ark crashing was the distinctive factor? For instance, had the Inchoroi landed anywhere, they would have rent the World to the Outside?
Would love the irony of this.
But that's a bit off topic I suppose.
So if Bakker says gender in Dunyain society is relevant...how? Did Kellhus destroy Ishual and herd the women to Ishterebinth for a breeding program? Assuming they're just as intelligent and rational as any male Dunyain we've met, Kellhus could have laid out some grand plan for them involving the attainment of the absolute through crossbreeding and elimination of the Consult. Could that be how he got Nil'giccas to work with the scalpers?
Of course, I don't know how to fit that with his meeting with Nin'sarricas. Shit, I don't know how to fit any of this together.
Lol, you're doing fine, Wic - I don't really understand this outrageous bar that's been set as to what qualifies as 'content' around here and stops people from posting. The worst that can happen is that content-generating participation will change you more quickly than simply active-reading participation...
I understand it a bit. To the untrainted eye, most of the regulars seem to either know everything, speak as if they do, or use very professional sounding sentence structure :P. We're all just whistling in the dark.
Firstly, I think Bakker's commentary alludes to how the Dunyain organized themselves before the events of the novels, in the two thousand year interim. As suggested by Somnambulist, Kellhus has absolutely no hesitation in using the Female Few to discharge the war against Golgotterath, which might reflect something of Ishual's gender relations.
I think Bakker created this illusion that the makes the reader think they know far more about the Dunyain than we really do. The prologue of TDTCB pretends to tell the full story of the Dunyain. Bastard child, everyone dies, mysterious cult comes in and erases everything, 2000 years of isolation. End....
The Women have been hidden from us. No dunyain women, no nonmen women (nonwomen...), no inchoroi women, and until WLW no women sorcerers.
There is only 1 cult we know of that has women at the head, and its quickly becoming (has become) a major player, though somewhat ironically its main tools are men.
The female school has already proven to be extremely important.... its led by Serwa, but she is controlled by Kellhus....
Whatever, the point is, the woman that are introduced have turned out to be very important. At this rate, the men will all become pawns. Hell hath no furry like a women scorned.
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Lol, you're doing fine, Wic - I don't really understand this outrageous bar that's been set as to what qualifies as 'content' around here and stops people from posting. The worst that can happen is that content-generating participation will change you more quickly than simply active-reading participation...
I understand it a bit. To the untrainted eye, most of the regulars seem to either know everything, speak as if they do, or use very professional sounding sentence structure :P. We're all the whistling in the dark.
Pish, good Sir.
Firstly, I think Bakker's commentary alludes to how the Dunyain organized themselves before the events of the novels, in the two thousand year interim. As suggested by Somnambulist, Kellhus has absolutely no hesitation in using the Female Few to discharge the war against Golgotterath, which might reflect something of Ishual's gender relations.
I think Bakker created this illusion that the makes the reader think they know far more about the Dunyain than we really do. The prologue of TDTCB pretends to tell the full story of the Dunyain. Bastard child, everyone dies, mysterious cult comes in and erases everything, 2000 years of isolation. End....
The Women have been hidden from us. No dunyain women, no nonmen women (nonwomen...), no inchoroi women, and until WLW no women sorcerers.
There is only 1 cult we know of that has women at the head, and its quickly becoming (has become) a major player, though somewhat ironically its main tools are men.
The female school has already proven to be extremely important.... its led by Serwa, but she is controlled by Kellhus....
Whatever, the point is, the woman that are introduced have turned out to be very important. At this rate, the men will all become pawns. Hell hath no furry like a women scorned.
I don't think people will be able to tolerate a "the Female Dunyain did it" ;).
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I don't think people will be able to tolerate a "the Female Dunyain did it" ;).
Who cares what "people" tolerate? And who are these people you speak of? They don't come around here. We're all fanatics.
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Lol. Well, I wish "they" would.
Am I fanatical?
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Am I fanatical?
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Serious question :P.
Also, I figured out how to get more emoticons... But there are no good packs, that I can find - I can assemble one for us in the future. For now, I seem to have switched to phpBB style?
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Whatever, the point is, the woman that are introduced have turned out to be very important. At this rate, the men will all become pawns. Hell hath no furry like a women scorned.
Big Sister?
Wow, could that be the big femanist slap in the face, having gotten into the good graces of a certain kind of readership? Push your shit this far and you will have a crushing uber female power structure over you? Nice to see those guys end up with some kind of damn challenge, whereas I'm not sure the rape scenes are...
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Whatever, the point is, the woman that are introduced have turned out to be very important. At this rate, the men will all become pawns. Hell hath no furry like a women scorned.
Big Sister?
Wow, could that be the big femanist slap in the face, having gotten into the good graces of a certain kind of readership? Push your shit this far and you will have a crushing uber female power structure over you? Nice to see those guys end up with some kind of damn challenge, whereas I'm not sure the rape scenes are...
Anything can be taken as insulting if you want it bad enough. ;)
And don't rule out female-raping-male scenes (its still rape if you use something other than a penis right?)
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I'm trying to say the rape scenes are challenging to me as a reader. I'm guessing not so much to mysogynistic males (maybe I'm wrong - that'd be good!) and I'd like to see them get their cumuppance.
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Anything can be taken as insulting if you want it bad enough. ;)
And don't rule out female-raping-male scenes (its still rape if you use something other than a penis right?)
Neuropath.
It didn't go over well with people ;).
And the rapist asks that exact question, Wilshire... is penetration more for some reason?
and I'd like to see them get their cumuppance.
No? They might feel shame as a result of revelation of self but I don't wish that trial on them, simply for something as arbitrary as "they deserve it." Too many are the creation of our society and cultures and of history and those ideas that come before, no?
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Mike, I think I'm implying an equality - them having to go through the same sort of thing I did - to basically put up with what is part of their culture. Even if you think neither should have to, it's atleast an equality.
Further, were talking about the fiction and responce to fiction level - actually no, I'm not super inclined to be forgiving so peoples reading lives are peaceful. People real lives, sure, I want them to be peaceful. But their reading lives - hmmm, not so interested in somehow preserving the peace there.
So yeah, their the creation of society and ideas that come before - in terms of reading lives, I'm fine with conflict erupting within that specific space, regardless of their victimhood! :o 8)
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It is hard to gauge where you stand.
What is the equality you are implying?
Why do I have to put up with any part of my culture - or another's - when all is history and liable to change?
I do like the context of messy, fictive lives but, honestly, if you think our lives peaceful, you've still got the curtains drawn (you're not looking at the world).
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I said I want peoples lives to be peaceful.
Why do I have to put up with any part of my culture - or another's - when all is history and liable to change?
Perspectives change. Actual history doesn't (which we can have a source to with emperic measurings, atleast)
And why do I have to put up with your 'I don't wish that trial on them'? You're grasping for traction upon what is just culture you can't readily see. I say this in a 'shocking, interesting idea' way :), not in a meanie face way.
There's a rogue state, potentially, in books - pit traps, sometimes spiked. There is no 'why should I have to', there is only gravity. And impact.
Though with Dunyain like manipulation, it's nothing like gravity, even as it enacts as immutably as gravity.
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Why do I have to put up with any part of my culture - or another's - when all is history and liable to change?
Perspectives change. Actual history doesn't (which we can have a source to with emperic measurings, atleast)
We're segueing but... no? 'Actual history' is something sufficiently far removed from 'history' as we have 'empirical' access to it as to be unknowable.
And why do I have to put up with your 'I don't wish that trial on them'? You're grasping for traction upon what is just culture you can't readily see. I say this in a 'shocking, interesting idea' way :), not in a meanie face way.
There's a rogue state, potentially, in books - pit traps, sometimes spiked. There is no 'why should I have to', there is only gravity. And impact.
Though with Dunyain like manipulation, it's nothing like gravity, even as it enacts as immutably as gravity.
I don't understand what you mean.
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Why do I have to put up with any part of my culture - or another's - when all is history and liable to change?
Perspectives change. Actual history doesn't (which we can have a source to with emperic measurings, atleast)
We're segueing but... no? 'Actual history' is something sufficiently far removed from 'history' as we have 'empirical' access to it as to be unknowable.
To the point where it can all change at any old time?
No point remembering your PIN number then, I guess.
And why do I have to put up with your 'I don't wish that trial on them'? You're grasping for traction upon what is just culture you can't readily see. I say this in a 'shocking, interesting idea' way :), not in a meanie face way.
There's a rogue state, potentially, in books - pit traps, sometimes spiked. There is no 'why should I have to', there is only gravity. And impact.
Though with Dunyain like manipulation, it's nothing like gravity, even as it enacts as immutably as gravity.
I don't understand what you mean.[/quote]
Can you tell me how many words you got through before that happened? Or is the version of 'I don't understand' which forcloses discussion? I've run into that a few times in various places, but still have trouble spotting which is which.
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To the point where it can all change at any old time?
No point remembering your PIN number then, I guess.
Well, you have the luxury of experiencing your personal history firsthand but good luck telling the history books how it went down.
And yes, at any old time, our historical narrative suddenly be overturned by evidence in the form of new archeological discoveries...
And why do I have to put up with your 'I don't wish that trial on them'? You're grasping for traction upon what is just culture you can't readily see. I say this in a 'shocking, interesting idea' way :), not in a meanie face way.
There's a rogue state, potentially, in books - pit traps, sometimes spiked. There is no 'why should I have to', there is only gravity. And impact.
Though with Dunyain like manipulation, it's nothing like gravity, even as it enacts as immutably as gravity.
Can you tell me how many words you got through before that happened? Or is the version of 'I don't understand' which forcloses discussion? I've run into that a few times in various places, but still have trouble spotting which is which.
I literally can read all of that and have no definitive leverage for communication referencing. In stretching, I somewhat understand how we've generated the "I don't wish that trial on them" but then I don't understand the next point you are trying to make. As for the rest of it, not at all.
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I suppose this most recent conversation could be tied to the topic.
From what I understand, Callan wants to know how history is changed... right?
Look at the Dunyain. To them, the subjective history of the world doesn't include Sorcery/magic, though in reality it does exist. Kellhus learns of it, and suddenly history changed.
I think the confusion arose when you started talking about subjective and objective history. No, 'hisotory' doesn't change. What happened, happened. But history, or our understanding of what happened, changes over time. Take some fact that you 'know' is correct.... Like the Holocaust for example, or the Moon landing. This historic events are so defining, its nearly impossible to conceive of a time when humanity forgot. But even today you can find plenty of people who don't believe that either happened, even though people that were there are still alive. Now take an event form a few centuries ago, and you can't ever be certain that it happend. The powers that be tend to change "history" to better suit them.
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The quote "History is written by the victors" comes to mind.
Depending on the "victors" of any time frame, history can be warped/altered or outright changed in almost any way imaginable.
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There are still States in the south that teach in grade school that the War of Norther Oppression (aka the Civil War) wan't about slavery at all, but was an unjust war based solely on the North's economic jealousy.
History is written by whoever wants to write it, which is no necessarily the victor. Generally though 'accepted' history is almost certainly written by the victors.
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It seems strange to me that the Dunyain are so obsessed with "the darkness that comes before" and yet they reject history. The seem like the one group that would go out of their way to uncover history to try to find blindspots. Maybe in the high up pragma councils they keep a record of who started the Dunyain and why and how they found Ishual. Without knowing those things, they have no chance of becoming their own instrument. Maybe that's what graduation from grunt to pragma is--you've proved that you are sufficiently independent of circumstance so you are allowed to know the circumstances of the Dunyain program inception.
As for Moenghus having a purpose to cross the steppe, I want to believe, but I can see how the circumstance could pile up: M sent out to gauge sranc threat, M returns to report, M exiled as polluted, as Dunyain M cannot do other than dominate whatever there is to dominate--the local sranc, M learns their language learns of humans, investigates Atrithau, learns of more things to dominate in the south, M pretends to be a captive, dominates Scylvendi on the way towards the most powerful nation in the 3 seas. As the first Dunyain out of Ishual (if he was) he just necessarily rose to the top. Have a hard time believing Kellhus will ever find his way past his dad's nets. :P
@ Madness - Awesome! Kellhus is trained like a honored matre in Ishual. I like it.
@ FB - i love the idea of Earwa as mega-topoi!
@ Wilshire - can confirm, the "war of northern aggression" narrative is still kicking around :(
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I think the Dunyain are supposed to be obsessed with escaping TDTCB.
Is it a co-incidence that the Dunyain were established at the same time as the no-god?
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I think the Dunyain are supposed to be obsessed with escaping TDTCB.
Is it a co-incidence that the Dunyain were established at the same time as the no-god?
I'm having trouble expressing what I mean--something along the lines of what Cnaiur said about Kellhus to Conphas when Cnaiur was captured after the bloodbath at Jokta. Something like "he sees their beginnings and so wields their ends." I don't know why the Dunyain wouldn't want to meticulously understand their history so they could better know how to escape it?
I love your coincidence! Must mean something!