Earwa > The No-God
Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Sausuna:
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 05:01:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on October 03, 2017, 04:29:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 04:22:26 pm ---But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
--- End quote ---
Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.
Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls. So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence. Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 04:46:05 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 04:22:26 pm ---But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
--- End quote ---
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.
Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
--- End quote ---
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
--- End quote ---
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.
H:
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 05:09:46 pm ---Unless you are willing/capable of reaching for the Absolute.
--- End quote ---
If such a thing is even possible. The fact that the Progenitors failed means it could be impossible. Sort of like approaching absolute zero. Close is possible, but nearly impossible to make that last jump.
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 05:21:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 05:01:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on October 03, 2017, 04:29:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 04:22:26 pm ---But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
--- End quote ---
Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.
Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls. So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence. Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 04:46:05 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 04:22:26 pm ---But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
--- End quote ---
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.
Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
--- End quote ---
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
--- End quote ---
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.
--- End quote ---
It's how I interpret things based on all kinds of things, such as the very wording in "starving" the Gods, but also the part about the No-God/Ark changing eternity,
--- Quote ---The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.
--- End quote ---
etc. The way I see it, the World being shut would mean the Gods being erased.
--- Quote from: H on October 03, 2017, 05:30:18 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 05:09:46 pm ---Unless you are willing/capable of reaching for the Absolute.
--- End quote ---
If such a thing is even possible. The fact that the Progenitors failed means it could be impossible. Sort of like approaching absolute zero. Close is possible, but nearly impossible to make that last jump.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure they failed in the context of the books, but yes surely it's hard to see how we could ever escape the chains of causaility in this world.
Madness:
Tangent aside, on topic, I'll contest the opening post.
While Achamian will certainly be one of the most accomplished sorcerers remaining, I'm Team Serwa and really hope she has survived. Also, Achamian is the Prophetess' first Disciple. Achamian will follow Mimara and who knows what where she might lead.
Otherwise, given that TNG begins a few weeks after the disaster at Golgotterath and many of our previous principles are all with the retreating Ordeal, they aren't going to be doing much to coordinate and lead the remaining pockets of humanity.
Sausuna:
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 06:07:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 05:21:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 05:01:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on October 03, 2017, 04:29:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 04:22:26 pm ---But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
--- End quote ---
Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.
Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls. So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence. Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 04:46:05 pm ---
--- Quote from: tleilaxu on October 03, 2017, 04:22:26 pm ---But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
--- End quote ---
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.
Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
--- End quote ---
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
--- End quote ---
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.
--- End quote ---
It's how I interpret things based on all kinds of things, such as the very wording in "starving" the Gods, but also the part about the No-God/Ark changing eternity,
--- Quote ---The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.
--- End quote ---
etc. The way I see it, the World being shut would mean the Gods being erased.
--- End quote ---
But even that quote is only relating to the God's memories and awareness more than their existence. We might just have to agree to disagree, but the language seems to much more imply mere separation to me- striking from the hip, shutting the world, starving at the gates. None of these things imply destruction to me. Nor some sort of temporal change that would also rewrite the history of existence. This is even assuming on your part from where souls come from, which also seems equally unclear.
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