[Wilshire]

To add, he likely planned on rejoin the armies once one got wiped out, split them up so that the loss of one wouldn't be too devistating, as long as it wasn't his (all the critical things under his care). He knew he couldn't get them all there, and might have figured that that the Consult mght have outsmarted one of his plans and/or generals, unfor seen ambushes, etc  .

[EkyannusIII]

Fine points.  I would add that the one army that is destroyed was the one populated by Nilnameshii and backed by the Vokalati, who were the factions most recently added to the Empire and thus the least tamed elements of Kellhus' forces.  It's the Vulgar Holy War all over again.

[mrganondorf]

Fine points.  I would add that the one army that is destroyed was the one populated by Nilnameshii and backed by the Vokalati, who were the factions most recently added to the Empire and thus the least tamed elements of Kellhus' forces.  It's the Vulgar Holy War all over again.

totally!  and maybe we'll see something like the Carathay blood-letting when they cross Agongorea, i'm hoping

[Simas Polchias]

If we compare earwan ground with an organism and inchoroi landing with a disease, eating sranc could be a vaccination in so many ways — from the pure metaphysical to the very mundane. And of course only Akkeägni knows how tempting it is to use word "graft" instead of "vaccine" here. 

My favourite guess now is Kellhus who prepares his people for the atrocities of Golgottherath by cajoling them to dabble in the similar atrocities (lest they all go mad through more sudden and unfriendly familiarization).

Also a side thought. Do we clearly know that the Womb Plague was gender WMD? Considering the unceasing badassness of our pale giants, it could be the weakest who actually died (all nonwomen, all nonchildren, all nonoldmen & all faint nonmen). So as a second guess Kellhus culls the weak, sharpening his ordeal with improvised methods.

[The Sharmat]

Fine points.  I would add that the one army that is destroyed was the one populated by Nilnameshii and backed by the Vokalati, who were the factions most recently added to the Empire and thus the least tamed elements of Kellhus' forces.  It's the Vulgar Holy War all over again.

I believe it was also the army the Mandate was traveling with. And that this particular disaster resulted in the bulk of the Mandate being killed, including their Grandmaster (the first human ever to perform a meta-gnostic cant). Given that the Mandate are the school most suited to fighting the Consult...this is a critical loss. Of course the Consult probably knew the disposition of forces. Kellhus and his progeny can spot Skin-Spies, but they cannot personally inspect every single soldier in their quarter-of-a-million strong army. They've got to have informants among the rank and file.

Whether this is a genuine blunder by Kellhus, a calculated loss as part of some greater game, or just bad luck...that's hard to say.

Also I just had the rather disturbing realization that my role in most discussions on this board has been as a Consult cheerleader.

[Wilshire]

Simas Polchias:
- I like that visual of organism/disease, and Kellhus preparing the Ordeal for the true atrocities ahead is also great.

- I'm not sure if we have any direct correlation to the Womb Plague and the death of anyone other than the mothers (and their stillborn children, but I suspect something metaphysical with that)


The Sharmat:
The Consult need love too . Your more playing devils advocate than just cheerleading the Consult. There is a reason Kellhus spent decades planning this assault, and it wasn't because the Consult are a foe he plans to beat easily.

I'd argue that the Mandate, while important, are the 'old guard' if you will. Schoolmen from yesteryear, sworn to Seswatha and no-one else. Might be that Kellhus thought they were a bit of a wild card.

Below is kind of tangential and only loosely ties back to some of your statements. It doesn't really fit into "side effects of eating sranc" but I'll drop it here anyway:

The text is conflicting about how much of the school was destroyed, but certain the lose of the Grandmaster was devastating as he was likely far and away the strongest. I still think, though, that everything of vital importance is held fast to Kellhus, making his army, those generals, and the Swayali, the most key pieces. The rest, I think, are more or less pawns, or  maybe even rooks/knights, but still all pieces he is willing to gamble.

The Consult wouldn't dare send their first big surprise directly into Kellhus' arms, and both Kellhus and the Consult know this. So if not Kellhus, destroying the army full of their old enemy, the Mandate, who also appear to be the strongest schoolmen, is a great 2nd choice. Sure, the other army protected by the anagogic schoolmen would have been a softer target, but they aren't really concerned with losses. For maximum damage before they release the big guns, getting rid of the Mandate is certainly worth the cause.

Kellhus probably wasn't able to predict how/when/where the Consult would try to launch a surprise assault, so he needed to bait them into doing it in a controlled way. I think Kellhus sequestered away whatever secrets he couldn't hide within his grasp in the other in-tact army.

I'm going to guess that the anagogic schools, which have been dismissed in everyone's minds as inferior, have taught something of extreme power by Kellhus. Whether he has given them the gnosis, or the means to developing their own, or some kind of meta-diamos, or anagogic-gnostic hybrid, I think they are a surprise waiting to happen. What better place to hide a secret weapon than with those that no one believes are capable of wielding it?

[Somnambulist]

Off-topic but relating to Saccarees...  The Mandate Grandmaster didn't die in the attack.  He survived as did both some of the Mandati and Vokalati sorcerers.  They weren't all wiped out.  Carindusu, the Vokalati Grandmaster, was indeed slain by Saccarees.  It was stated later that when the armies got back together after the disaster, Saccarees was (paraphrasing) weathering the political fallout from having killed Carindusu.  Their Schools weren't destroyed, but rather lost so many sorcerers of rank they basically lost status as major/preeminent Schools.

[The Sharmat]

I stand corrected. Still, a substantial loss. Aurang must have laughed when he saw the degree of success the little surprise achieved.

I suppose it's possible Kellhus has likewise secreted some trump card with the otherwise quite weakened Scarlet Spires. He has studied the Daimos quite closely with Iyokus, hasn't he?

Wilshire: I don't know if it's common to the Swayali as a whole, but Serwa at least has touched Seswatha's heart. So I suppose there's that, in terms of Mandate knowledge.

[Wilshire]

Kellhus claimed that he alone wields the Gnosis and hasn't touched the heart. I just put very little stock in anything that he says.

Certainly Serwa has, since it would likely be important to have Dunyain with the dreams, but im not sure about the others.

I kind of forgot about this... it somewhat diminishes my point, but I think it still stands. A new branch of Gnostic magi would be less steeped in tradition superstitions, and less beholden to Seswatha, even if they all did have the dreams.



Thanks Somna, for the correction. I could have sworn that Saccarees.

If Saccarees survived, under the direct assault of nearly half the vokalati, its seems likely to me that the majority of the most powerful Mandati survived.

[mrganondorf]

Simas Polchias:
- I like that visual of organism/disease, and Kellhus preparing the Ordeal for the true atrocities ahead is also great.

- I'm not sure if we have any direct correlation to the Womb Plague and the death of anyone other than the mothers (and their stillborn children, but I suspect something metaphysical with that)


The Sharmat:
The Consult need love too . Your more playing devils advocate than just cheerleading the Consult. There is a reason Kellhus spent decades planning this assault, and it wasn't because the Consult are a foe he plans to beat easily.

I'd argue that the Mandate, while important, are the 'old guard' if you will. Schoolmen from yesteryear, sworn to Seswatha and no-one else. Might be that Kellhus thought they were a bit of a wild card.

Below is kind of tangential and only loosely ties back to some of your statements. It doesn't really fit into "side effects of eating sranc" but I'll drop it here anyway:

The text is conflicting about how much of the school was destroyed, but certain the lose of the Grandmaster was devastating as he was likely far and away the strongest. I still think, though, that everything of vital importance is held fast to Kellhus, making his army, those generals, and the Swayali, the most key pieces. The rest, I think, are more or less pawns, or  maybe even rooks/knights, but still all pieces he is willing to gamble.

The Consult wouldn't dare send their first big surprise directly into Kellhus' arms, and both Kellhus and the Consult know this. So if not Kellhus, destroying the army full of their old enemy, the Mandate, who also appear to be the strongest schoolmen, is a great 2nd choice. Sure, the other army protected by the anagogic schoolmen would have been a softer target, but they aren't really concerned with losses. For maximum damage before they release the big guns, getting rid of the Mandate is certainly worth the cause.

Kellhus probably wasn't able to predict how/when/where the Consult would try to launch a surprise assault, so he needed to bait them into doing it in a controlled way. I think Kellhus sequestered away whatever secrets he couldn't hide within his grasp in the other in-tact army.

I'm going to guess that the anagogic schools, which have been dismissed in everyone's minds as inferior, have taught something of extreme power by Kellhus. Whether he has given them the gnosis, or the means to developing their own, or some kind of meta-diamos, or anagogic-gnostic hybrid, I think they are a surprise waiting to happen. What better place to hide a secret weapon than with those that no one believes are capable of wielding it?

i think the Consult made a somewhat predictable move (from Kellhus' POV) by attacking the one army that was dragging the sranc horde on it's flank.  i think Kellhus must have seen something like this coming--that one army was the most exposed of all 4 and was one of the smaller 2 armies

i really like what you said about maybe the anagogic schools will end up being more powerful.  maybe the gnosis can't do the daimos, so you have to use the anagogis to summon demons/gods.  if that is the case, maybe the daimos really IS more powerful than the gnosis when you have Kellhus as a teacher!

[dragharrow]

I'd argue that the Mandate, while important, are the 'old guard' if you will. Schoolmen from yesteryear, sworn to Seswatha and no-one else. Might be that Kellhus thought they were a bit of a wild card.

I don't know, theoretically the mandati should be more useful and more reliable than the other schools (excluding the witches). Seswatha didn't just create the heart in order to guard the gnosis. He did it to make sure that there would always be an elite school of sorcerer prepared to fight the consult. The dream's have programmed them with a single minded devotion to to the cause. More importantly, the dreams serve to essentially train them for the brutal ordeal of a war against the consult. Night after night the heart has run them through battle drills. Familiarizing them with their enemy and their enemies tactics. Preparing them for the consult's atrocities so that they won't be horrified when they face them. Running their souls through simulations of combat over and over and over.

They have all been programmed to be soldiers in this war. They, more than any others, know what it feels like to stand against the consult. When the time comes they wont be able to do anything else but fight bravely, they've done it countless times and now it is second nature to them. Seswatha has done the closest thing to providing Kellhus with a "blooded" school. The next best thing to having sorcerers who have actually fought the consult before.

I think Kellhus actually says this in the first trilogy. He says that the dunyain believed that the function of dreams was to prepare the soul for situations it had not yet encountered.

That all assumes that Seswatha's intentions aren't completely beyond our understanding obviously. I know he's a liar but it does seem that in this at least his intentions were sincere.

[Wilshire]

Great post dragharrow. Lots of things for me to consider...

I don't know, theoretically the mandati should be more useful and more reliable than the other schools (excluding the witches).

In the grand scheme, the only schools that really matter, from the information we have right now, are the two gnostic schools. The Anagogic schools are largely irrelevant.

Seswatha didn't just create the heart in order to guard the gnosis.  He did it to make sure that there would always be an elite school of sorcerer prepared to fight the consult.

More importantly, I think he created it as a way to avoid dying. Regardless, it was built to maintain the memory of the Consult and to jealously guard the secrets of the gnosis. If Seswatha wanted elite sorcerers, he would have made it such that the Mandate could give the secrets of the gnosis to others. If the three seas was filled with legions of Gnosi, they'd be far better off than with some 50ish Mandate schoolmen of the rank.

The dream's have programmed them with a single minded devotion to to the cause.

Which is a huge problem, not an asset, if "the cause" that Seswatha was after is not exactly 100% identical to Kellhus' plans. To me, this seems very unlikely.

More importantly, the dreams serve to essentially train them for the brutal ordeal of a war against the consult. Night after night the heart has run them through battle drills. Familiarizing them with their enemy and their enemies tactics. Preparing them for the consult's atrocities so that they won't be horrified when they face them. Running their souls through simulations of combat over and over and over. They have all been programmed to be soldiers in this war. They, more than any others, know what it feels like to stand against the consult. When the time comes they wont be able to do anything else but fight bravely, they've done it countless times and now it is second nature to them. Seswatha has done the closest thing to providing Kellhus with a "blooded" school. The next best thing to having sorcerers who have actually fought the consult before.

This is maybe something small to be considered, but not a huge deal. Big picture, the Mandate make up a tiny portion of the war and their experience was more important before the march began. They were built to be teachers. Now that the Ordeal has marched, they are a liability, for they have no flexibility of thought. They cannot conceive of a Consult that is different than what they have dreamed every night for their entire lives.

I think Kellhus actually says this in the first trilogy. He says that the dunyain believed that the function of dreams was to prepare the soul for situations it had not yet encountered.

I think you might be correct, but I can't remember the context. They have been prepared, but I think too rigidly, with too much tradition, too much inefficiency, too much allegiance to another. They represent more of a liability and a danger to Kellhus than the tactical advantages they may offer, most of which have already been used at this point anyway.

Kellhus doesn't need someone elses soldiers, he's perfectly capable of making his own. If he thought the Mandate was all that he was going to need, he wouldn't have created the Swayali, and he wouldn't have sent them to one of the smaller armies prone to being attacked, so far away that he was unable to get there in time to save most of them from disaster.

That all assumes that Seswatha's intentions aren't completely beyond our understanding obviously. I know he's a liar but it does seem that in this at least his intentions were sincere.

We are told that Seswatha's intentions are to destroy the Consult. I believe this to be true absolutely, however I don't think that this has to be his only objective. Even if it were, Seswatha was no super-human intellect. Not the product of  2000 years of genetic selection. Even if the Mandate where purely a tool be the most efficient way to destroy the Consult through the ages, it is still a human plan. Kellhus needs Kellhus' plans. His own school, his own mysticism, and because the Mandate cannot be fully extracted from their own darkness that comes before, they must be made irrelevent, if not destroyed entirely.

[dragharrow]

We are told that Seswatha's intentions are to destroy the Consult. I believe this to be true absolutely, however I don't think that this has to be his only objective. Even if it were, Seswatha was no super-human intellect. Not the product of  2000 years of genetic selection. Even if the Mandate where purely a tool be the most efficient way to destroy the Consult through the ages, it is still a human plan. Kellhus needs Kellhus' plans. His own school, his own mysticism, and because the Mandate cannot be fully extracted from their own darkness that comes before, they must be made irrelevent, if not destroyed entirely.

Has Kellhus ever done that? That doesn't sound like him to me.

It might make sense from a dunyain perspective to destroy any agents that you cannot absolutely dominate and predict but Kellhus isn't dunyain. He has never really adhered to that protocol. He picks up Cnaur right away and hangs out with him for most of the first trilogy. Cnaur is dangerous, unstable, and due to the influence of Moe, it is clear that Kellhus could never own him completely. He is perfectly happy to take over huge systems that his father has carefully created. He lets Akka live, despite the fact that Akka know the truth and is simultaneously becoming the avatar of Seswatha. The biggest example is his kids, Moe kills his defective children (presumably) , Kellhus lets them all live. Even the one with a demon in his head.

Kellhus doesn't usually worry about prior corruption by other forces. He is too arrogant. He believes that he can put everything to use. The influence of other major players just gives him more to stuff to play with.

That said, I actually didn't mean to imply that I thought Kellhus lost part of the mandate by accident. I'm sure he had his reasons. I just think they represent way more of a useful tool than a hazard. The seswatha stuff is all upside from Kellhus's perspective, even if seswatha and Kellhus have opposite ultimate goals. Kellhus thinks he can just play around that, or put it to good use.

[dragharrow]

More importantly, I think he created it as a way to avoid dying.

Yeah, I think this is very possible. The dreams serve a bunch of purposes. They're clearly doing something new to Akka. And from that we have proof that Seswathas a damn liar, so I wouldn't put anything past him.

Regardless, it was built to maintain the memory of the Consult and to jealously guard the secrets of the gnosis. If Seswatha wanted elite sorcerers, he would have made it such that the Mandate could give the secrets of the gnosis to others. If the three seas was filled with legions of Gnosi, they'd be far better off than with some 50ish Mandate schoolmen of the rank.

He did. You just have to be a member of the few and willing to touch the Heart. Whatever ulterior motives he definitely had, this makes sense. He wanted to keep the people with the Gnosis focused on the Consult and ready to actually fight. I think they serve all these purposes.

Also, Seswatha at least claimed that touching the Heart to receive the Gnosis was a temporary measure. Akka says that they are only supposed to guard the Gnosis until the Consult returns. Then they're supposed to distribute their weaponry freely. I could totally see that being a lie told by Seswatha but I had assumed that the reason the Gnosis was still not being distributed freely was a choice by Kellhus.

More importantly, the dreams serve to essentially train them for the brutal ordeal of a war against the consult. Night after night the heart has run them through battle drills... Seswatha has done the closest thing to providing Kellhus with a "blooded" school. The next best thing to having sorcerers who have actually fought the consult before.

This is maybe something small to be considered, but not a huge deal.

I disagree. Arming and training men isn't enough. Experience is invaluable. The Quya have been doing this millennia. The dream's aren't a perfect replacement for having actual professional soldiers, but they are a lot better than nothing. The other schoolmen are basically academics. At best, they have played the role of artillery. They have very little experience fighting other human magi. Zero experience fighting Quya or dragons. And they are soft. They've never seen anything like what the consult is capable of.

Big picture, the Mandate make up a tiny portion of the war and their experience was more important before the march began.

The mandate might make up a tiny portion of the war if you include Mundane humans but in terms of relevance they are a substantial portion Kellhus' army. The mundane humans are just a vessel to protect the schoolmen and deliver them to the battlefield. Ultimately, the schoolmen are the army.

They were built to be teachers.

Maybe. To me the mechanics of the dreams seem like they are exactly what you would make if you wanted to create fanatic sleeper soldiers. They focus on big battles (some of which Ses didn't even attend) and the horrors of war. Seswatha fighting dragons . Fighting Quya. Being captured by Mek. And then they drill them every night.

Look at Akka. When he was kidnapped by the scarlet spires and tortured, he leaned on the dreams to get through it. He had already been trained for that situation and was unphased. The same will happen when the first mage battles start. The other mages will be unprepared and they will fold. The mandate will follow Kellhus' orders to the end. I think thats useful

[dragharrow]

I still stand by my idea that eating Sranc will similar but short-term effects to Qirri, possibly even stronger than Qirri, with much worse long-term effects.

Sranc are to Meth as Qirri is to Adderal? I dig it.