http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wig :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wig :P
Touche, but Nonmen also do not have nut brown skin.
You know what's weird--just as there are no creation myths in Earwa, there are no apocalypse narratives aside from the Consult.
Perhaps Meppa is to the Cishaurim what Saccarees is to the Mandate?
Not sure if I already said this, but this is a theory. When Moe was sitting with Cnaiur after he'd been stabbed, his snakes were rubbing Cnaiur's head and Moe said something like 'I need your strength'. I believe Moe intended to drain Cnaiur of his life force to enable him to translate his soul into another body. When Cnaiur chorae'd him, the process was incomplete. That other body was Meppa. Moe's psyche (or whatever) partially imprinted on Meppa's causing him to not remember who he was. Also, maybe it gave him his vast knowledge of the psukhe, allowing him to become the badass cishaurim we all know and love.
I like it. Partially Cnaiur/partially Moenghus the Elder :).100% Meta-Psukari death robot.
But how is he still alive?Here's a version about accidental time-travel. :3
Never got in on this thread before it was locked. :'(
I'll finish compiling the list of guesses from the first thread sometime this week and edit it onto the first page here for reference.
Quote from: MadnessWhen I ever have some bulk free time, I'll get around to posting my Almanac - Ch. 12. Cnaiur tells Kellhus that Moenghus' eyes are almost pale enough to pass for Scylvendi? How does this relate to Ketyai?
So far we have Meppa is:
1. Xinemus
2. Inrau
3. Cnaiur
4. Moenghus the Elder
5. Meppa, Cishaurim, Second Son of Moenghus
6. One of the Three missing of the Nine Incandanti
7. One of Moenghus' Sect of the Cishaurim
8. Neuropunctured Metapsukhari
9. Titirga
10. Skin-Spy
11. Reincarnation of Fane
Right now I'm leaning towards another son of Moenghus, since the fact that he had other (supposedly dead) children appears in the same book.I really want Moenghus to be dead but have agency in the world, like through unknown children.
Meppa is an initiate of old Moe's who adopted the snake that escaped when Cnaiur chorae'd him. The snake only partially absorbed Moe's 'essence' shall we say, so when the initiate got hold of the snake, only part of Moe downloaded and partially scrubbed out the initiate's own 'essence.' Thus, he has part of Moe's reasoning abilities, coupled with the initiate's passion. Seems like this has been theorized before, but that's what I'm going with.
Most every definition of pale as an adjective is for whitish complexion or almost colourless grey or white.
I think pale is a relative term. Malowebi is Satyothi, which is black-skinned. Any non-Satyothi would be pale to him.
Meppa is an initiate of old Moe's who adopted the snake that escaped when Cnaiur chorae'd him. The snake only partially absorbed Moe's 'essence' shall we say, so when the initiate got hold of the snake, only part of Moe downloaded and partially scrubbed out the initiate's own 'essence.' Thus, he has part of Moe's reasoning abilities, coupled with the initiate's passion. Seems like this has been theorized before, but that's what I'm going with.Cishaurim snakes = sandworms = Leto ii
Meppa is an initiate of old Moe's who adopted the snake that escaped when Cnaiur chorae'd him. The snake only partially absorbed Moe's 'essence' shall we say, so when the initiate got hold of the snake, only part of Moe downloaded and partially scrubbed out the initiate's own 'essence.' Thus, he has part of Moe's reasoning abilities, coupled with the initiate's passion. Seems like this has been theorized before, but that's what I'm going with.
What Somna said. Your looking at an arab guy standing next to a african guy, the arab guy is pale, but if you put the arab fellow next to me, he's dark. Regardless of what "most" definitions are, the POV and surroundings are important. Everything is relative, especially when talking about skin tone. Native American to Brazillian, the NA is pale or whiteish, but compared to some Canadian guy, he's dark.
Some definitions of pale also include feeble and unimpressive.... Context...
locke mentioned in another post the Meppa is Moenghus' father / Kellhus' grandfather. Not sure if thats been stated in this topic yet, but it seemed novel to me.
One Anasurimbor that we know of lived to 150+ long ago because he was almost half Nonman. Now that the Nonman blood must have been diluted significantly it's hard to imagine that an Anasurimbor can live up to 150 years on average.Bakker and tolkien. Aragorn. Doesn't matter if it's diluted.
Bakker doesn't just ape Tolkien 1 for 1.Yeah the similarities are there but certainly not a replica.
Odd, though, that a single dragonhead from a young Eleazarus killed all 3 assassins. Shows that the ones they sent are low ranking and/or not particularly adept at wielding the Psuke. To think, the Grandmaster killed by mere field spies... :P
Would take a powerful driver for that. The Cish are even fewer than the few, though I imagine religious fervor goes a long way.
Like having three dudes travel to Zeum just to cut their own throats? :PExactly what I was suggesting. Like father like son.
ALL OF ISHUAL GOES CISHAURIM AFTER KELLHUS LEAVES
I wonder about the number of Cishaurim. Could be bigger than it seems.I think the text suggests they don't have many members (whether or that is reliable is up to you I suppose).
We get a take on their numbers for the perspective of the SS. Eli and Iyokus are talking about what their reports show from when the Shrial Knights charged and took out 12 Cishaurim on the Battleplain.
The narration says something like "it was believed that the Cishaurim could field at most 100 to 120" and that this is near to what the SS could field (but suggests that the SS has slightly more). But it seems the SS misread other things about the Cishaurim, so who knows how reliable this is.
It's funny. The SS seems to think that the Psukhe is "sometimes unfathomably powerful" but of course somehow still inferior to the Anagogis.
I've always taken Fanayal's statement that "Meppa doesn't know who he is" as meaning that Meppa doesn't know what his role is in the greater picture, and not that he doesn't remember who he is.
There is the potential there for an extreme increase in numbers for The Few. All of them, especially the mandate, where thrust into a position of high regard. They would have been recruiting heavily, openly, and with the full support of the people. I'm guessing most would be eager to join the ranks, and anyone from children to older men would have been given the chance. 20 years is a long time.Probably not older men. Before you can even really begin to learn how to perform sorcery you need to master the school's language. Then you need to learn how apprehend the complicated semantic processes of the sorcery. And at that point you're still a complete beginner.
Akka does say that that is the reason that schools do not take on adult students. He could be wrong of course but Akka believes it to be true and so do the schools.
Even the Schoolmen Esmenet consulted had told her that Mimara was too old to master the painstaking meanings sorcery required.
Meppa is X?
Maybe you're looking for "Who attacked the scarlet spires and why"
Well, if you think about it. Aren't we all Meppa?
Meppa is saul. Start of chapter 5, ttt.
Nailed itMeppa is saul. Start of chapter 5, ttt.
like Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the Apostle? too cool. Meppa--> Cishaurim --> blind : Saul --> sees God --> scales fall from his eyes --> becomes Paul
Nailed itMeppa is saul. Start of chapter 5, ttt.
like Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the Apostle? too cool. Meppa--> Cishaurim --> blind : Saul --> sees God --> scales fall from his eyes --> becomes Paul
I'm not understanding your reference to chapter 5, are you saying Meppa is Conphas?Welcome to the forum Darzin (insofar as this is your first post here).
Welcome to the forum Darzin (insofar as this is your first post here).
I might have meant chapter four or six, I was listening to the audio book.
I insist Darzin be kicked out of the forum because we already have someone with a Dagoth Ur avatar.Thought you changed your name for a minute :P
QuoteWelcome to the forum Darzin (insofar as this is your first post here).
Thanks.QuoteI might have meant chapter four or six, I was listening to the audio book.
I might be an idiot but I still can't find it, what was it that sparked the idea if you just remember some words I can search the E-book. I really like the idea of Meppa as a Saul/Paul type figure so I'd like to see what gave you that idea.
if Meppa knows what's really going on, then is the whole Great Ordeal just a monstrous distraction? to distract the gods? then Meppa will ascend and murder the heavens while Yatwer and co are staring down at the fight on Gongorea?And thus one of the Moenghus' sons controls the Outside, one the inside, and one the religious center.
Meppa, the man that is always on my mind. You know, I'd love Cnaüir to still have a part in this. My money is that Meppa=Moe(intellect)+Cnaüir (passion). But, the more I think about the scene where this supposedly happens, one thing strikes me. When Cnaüir is putting the chorae to Moe's cheek, he says that the God stares back at him or something along those lines. I'm not good on the meta parts of this series, but it seems, to me, to show that they are joining the god. Like, this is why Meppa's Water is so strong. Its like the God had a hand in this thing. Almost, like how Yatwer is intervening, the God is using Meppa as his tool. I have a rough time explaining what I'm meaning here, but that's the gist of it. It would definitely align Meppa against the Consult if that's the case. The God don't wanna be wiped out.
Other than a bothersome interview with Bakker indicating otherwise, I would also think it was plausible that meppa was Cnaiur. It's a shame he's gone.
Recall that turning someone into a salt statue is a fairly well known biblical allusion. "Seeing god" in that situations seems like a reasonable metaphor, not necessarily literal, but there in lies the mystery.
Do we actually see Meppa's arms to know whether they are scarred or not?
There is of course the possibility that Moe didn't transfer into Cnaüir's body, but rather, somehow used him to transfer to another person.
There is a lovely animated bit about Sodom and gamora. I'll have to post it here if I find it.
This one? http://youtu.be/bar3GOzDNzglol yes. Love this clip.
"De-sexing stick"
Do we actually see Meppa's arms to know whether they are scarred or not?
There is of course the possibility that Moe didn't transfer into Cnaüir's body, but rather, somehow used him to transfer to another person.
AFAIK, there is never anything said about Meppa's arms. I like the idea of it transferring to another body also.
I've never been particularly fond of the Meppa=Cnaüir connection, yet I'm not a fan of Moe just totally messed up and got killed either.
Meppa was certainly "made" by the events that ended the Cishaurim. It could be that Meppa was a Primary that was held back (for some reason, maybe by Moe) and perhaps underwent a "soul-transfer" of sorts. Maybe from Moe, maybe from some other Primary.
Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.
Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.
Oh man, you've been gone for some time, haven't you? :P. Well I'll just let you know now, before you get confused: There is a whole congregate of people who now believe Moenghus is the All-Thing, master manipulator of all events, the true master of TTT and all circumstance. He-who-comes-before-all, a perfect self-moving soul with god-like meta-psukhe powers.
I am not one of those people.
But, for those that are, and believe he had limitless powers in the psukhe, all things are trivial to the point of absurdity. A soul transfer would be well within the cosmic power of such an individual. ;)
I'd say a soul tranfer type of ordeal using the might of all the primaries, or some other such great effort, might be possible though.
Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.
Oh man, you've been gone for some time, haven't you? :P. Well I'll just let you know now, before you get confused: There is a whole congregate of people who now believe Moenghus is the All-Thing, master manipulator of all events, the true master of TTT and all circumstance. He-who-comes-before-all, a perfect self-moving soul with god-like meta-psukhe powers.
I am not one of those people.
But, for those that are, and believe he had limitless powers in the psukhe, all things are trivial to the point of absurdity. A soul transfer would be well within the cosmic power of such an individual. ;)
I'd say a soul tranfer type of ordeal using the might of all the primaries, or some other such great effort, might be possible though.
It might be possible that Moe simply found a way to circumnavigate or cancel a chorae's power.
It's not out of nowhere @themerchant. I agree with you, there is plenty of textual evidence on the matter of soul transferring. I'm just up in the air on exactly what Moe wanted to accomplish in Kyudea. But, to say he didn't plan something is foolish.I can't think of any instance where a soul is transferred to anything but an inanimate object. It's an assumption that a soul was transferred to a skin spy vs it being created with a soul or just being an anomaly the Consult cannot duplicate. If they had the ability to transfer souls at will into a skin spy I think they would build a bunch of them capable of using magic.
@Blackstone, there is precedence for it. We see how Shae has lived through is soul trapping whatever you want to call it. Seswatha's heart. Yea, the skin-spy is just a guess at this point, but how would Maithenet know about Simas? Well, like everything else, Moe. The Waithii Doll, though inanimate it would seem to be a clue that it is possible. I think there is enough textual evidence for it to be a possibility.
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.
And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.
And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.
Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.
So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?
That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.
So, putting a soul into an empty vessel, that's a thing.
Putting a soul into an occupied body? ie something that already has a soul? I don't think there's precedence for that.
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.
And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.
Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.
So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?
That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.
Well, how do Dunyain lie? With truth. We learn it's near impossible for even Kellhus to exact a shred of information from the skin-spies. What makes you think Maithenet would be able to? Who had a dungeon in Kyudea with neuropuncture, and 30 years to find a way to exact that info? So, that leads me to think that Maithenet only learned what Moe told him.
Well, RSB does give a clue that there is more to chorae than just killing sorcerors. Cil-Aujus, and Mimara holding the gates, and repelling a Wight. The wight wasn't of sorcerous nature. It was a ghost.
And Blackstone, its a reach that Meppa is Moe and what I call Cnaüir's passion tied together. Because that was waht Moe was lacking, passion. It makes sense, since we come to find out the Meppa's Water is like an ocean. Its more just wishful thinking on my part. Yet, I'm hopeful that one day I can say, I told you so.
Eta: and we come to find out in TJE that skin-spies don't reveal anything. They have to use neuropuncture just to simulate pain when flaying them. So that even more evidence that Moe created that ensouled skin-spy.
I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me.
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.
As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.
Oh yeah, I definitely not trying to dispute that Moe orchestrated the first holy war (Scarlet Spires assassination, planting Maithanet as Shriah, etc), I'm just saying I think it would be disappointing for me as a reader if a) his conditioning was now driving the GO, or b) he is somehow still alive and still pulling the strings.QuoteI think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me.
Well, Moe was certainly pulling all the strings in PoN. And, as I said, I think its a possibility with enough circumstantial evidence for Meppa to be a product of what went down in Kyudea. Either way I can live with it. And, I see your and others reasoning behind it also.
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.
As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.
Yea, I understand its a result of the cants of compulsion. But, doesn't Kellhus say that Aurang didn't want to posses Esme any longer than need be, because more of his memories would have went to Esme (or something like that).
As for the chorae, remeber when Cnaüir touches Moe with it, he says it seems as if the God is loooking at him through Moe's eyes. Mimara sees that it is try a Tear of God. I just believe there is more there. Can I give you a explanation of why? No. But, man I really like @the merchant's idea that the creation of chorae might involve a soul, and would really make sense, since as he said the each have different flavors. We don't know how a soul is trapped in a Waathi Doll, but if souls are connected to chorae that would seem very plausible way to make a Waathi Doll.
As for Kellhus extracting info from skin-spies, I don't remeber him getting any useful info from them. If someone could quote that for me, I'd appreciate it. Because, I can't recall that to be the case.
Simas was altered by Moe as his way of conditioning the Mandate to the TTT by having Maitha turn up and expose it, instantly removing all question from their mind in the same way Kellhus saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha. The added bit about only Kellhus being able to mine them for knowledge strengthens the argument.I don't think that strengthens the argument that Moe altered Simas, only the idea that Moe discovered Simas and alerted Maithanet, who then used the revelation to help bring in the Mandate. Since Kellhus was already fulfilling their prophecy, I don't think they needed much prodding.
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.
The Inchoroi/Consult are inept at their own craft, them making a mistake they can't repeat - like some random sranc spilling some beaker of melted human toenails into the skin-spy vat thus making a soul - seems within reason.
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life. I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.
I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe. Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident." The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.
Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.To be fair, if Moe and the Fanim won, the Mandate would basically need to capitulate to him instead. He's still an Anasurimbor.
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life. I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.
I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe. Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident." The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.
I'm going to agree with the "happy accident" on the part of the Consult. They seem to be blundering around with the Tekne. As far as we know, the skin spies are the first weapons race that has been created since the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. It seems more plausible to me that one of the Consult was tinkering around and did it on accident than Moe giving a skin spy a soul. We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).
I think it probable that Moe learned of the skin spy through his skin spy interrogations and told Maithanet about it, but I don't think it would have been necessary to draw the Mandate to Kellhus's side since he was so obviously the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (an Anasurimbor shows up and is able to discern the first evidence of the Consult's existence in 300 years). Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.
“After delivering the Shriah’s message to Gotian, I met with Gaörtha—”
The small face grimaced. “You met with him? Did I sanction this?”
“N-no. But the whore asked me to find Achamian for her, and I knew Gaörtha had been assigned to watch him.”
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life. I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.
I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe. Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident." The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.
We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).
Indeed they grafted it multiple times which is my point. 6 times to be precise. They then made the skin spy and recreated it loads of times.
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)Ha! Me thinks the one with the crackpot theory is the one that needs to make excuses ;)
Indeed they grafted it multiple times which is my point. 6 times to be precise. They then made the skin spy and recreated it loads of times.
Eh, just to nitpick this again (I already did above), but the Graft to see the Onta and adding a soul are probably unrelated. Inchoroi all have souls, they just weren't of the Few so they couldn't see the Onta and work sorcery.
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)Ha! Me thinks the one with the crackpot theory is the one that needs to make excuses ;)
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.
Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it. Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent. He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).
The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point. Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway. I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.
Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it. Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent. He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).
The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point. Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway. I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.
Whoa, whoa whoa, hold your horses. The Consult did not teach Simas the Gnosis. The only person to learn the Gnosis without grasping the heart is Kellhus. You have to grasp Seswatha's heart to learn the Gnosis.
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?
You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?
You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.
Mandati Sorcery will presumably be Seswatha Sorcery, which will be Sohonc Sorcery. Which was taught to folk before Seswatha was alive. Is there a delineation by school for the GNosis, I thought it was just the Gnosis.
Someone taught it the Gnosis anyway.
Yes everything in that post is true. Its basically a summary of Moe's arc throughout PoN. Answer me this. Why does Meppa have no memory? And, he's not lying we get this through his dialogue. Fayanal says that he is a gift of the Solitary God and he was found wondering in the desert. He has a ocean of water, Water=passion something Cnaüir is full of. Another clue I get that Meppa is a result of what happened in Kyudea, is Cnaüir saying over and over in TTT, "what am I forgetting". Foreshadowing. If Meppa is this so called disciple of Moe, why is his memory lost and why?
I am not of a mind that Moe is directing events in TAE, rather there as support for what his son is doing. If you recall Moe basically quizzed Kellhus throughout their meeting. Then let him self be stabbed, defended off 3 skin-spies, and waited on Cnaüir to come with his chorae. What does he say to Cnaüir? I need your strength Nayu, I need you to heal me. We see in TJE that chorae can be used for more than killing sorcery. We have several mentions of souls being transferred. Hey, I am not saying it's 100% likely that Meppa is the result of Kyudea, but there is enough evidence in the book to make it a possibility.
There is discussion at this very moment about why Kellhus is leaving the empire to ruin. No other choice? Most likely. You think Moe might have seen this also? What if Kellhus was wrong about Moe joining the Consult? He's been wrong before, Locke has a great post about it somewhere around here. Maybe Moe knew that without his help, if Kellhus did indeed defeat the Consult, there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to come back to. I could be right, I could be wrong. But, there is plenty of room for it to be something other than deus ex machina, if I'm right.
You don't need to grasp the heart do you?
You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.
Mandati Sorcery will presumably be Seswatha Sorcery, which will be Sohonc Sorcery. Which was taught to folk before Seswatha was alive. Is there a delineation by school for the GNosis, I thought it was just the Gnosis.
Someone taught it the Gnosis anyway.
The way the glossary explains it, Mandate Gnosis is somehow seemingly different (somehow) from Sohonc, but no doubt probably based off the same principles. The Mangaecca was allegedly one of the other 4 "Original Schools" with the Sohonc, but we don't know what the other two would be. Then, in a different entry we are told that "some dozen or so Gnostic Schools were in existence" at the dawn of the Apocalypse. Apparently there are a ton of Gnostic "flavors" it's just that we only know of three, right now: what the Quya use, what the Mandate use, and what the Mangaecca use. Aurang and/or Shae may well know others though, they've had plenty of time to think about it...
The more I think about it though, the less the Simas-agent seems like an "accident" and yet, I have said before, that I feel the agent must have been in place for years and years, meaning Moe's involvement seems very unlikely. I think there is a greater mystery afoot...
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.
Can you give me some real life examples.
the Skin Spies are said to be new and they managed to reproduce them.
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.
Yeah this is the PROBLEM with the theory. who taught the skinspy sorcery. Specifically the Gnosis, only the Mandate and the Consult have Gnostic schools at the time. Various workarounds are using a soul that already knows it.
All replicated experiments those. It wasn't like they did something and had no idea how they did it or were unable to do it again.
However who taught it sorcery is the torpedo to that theory. So the above is irrelevant anyway :P
I meant accidents that could not be replicated. Here is the conversationNo worries, I was being needlessly specific to avoid the issue because I couldn't think of anything initially that satisfied your actual question. I tried to do a better job above. If you want links so you dont have to go hunting, let me know.
Moe had eyesight also, his snakes we're there the whole time. Another reason I believe he let him stab him. All I can say is Moe had a plan at Kyudea, everything was conditioned by him. Kellhus kicking of the fibrous skull is a hint that everything isn't as Kellhus thinks it is. That is the very place that Inri ascended. Maybe Moe is not Meppa, I think he is. Even if he isn't, something went down in that scene, of that I am certain.
I doubt the quorum do much magic regardless.
If Moe can do soul transfers and is super powerful, then he can soul transfer a captured mandate schoolman, neuropincture him to do his bidding, wipe it's memories, and send it on back to the mandate. The skin spy wouldn't even know it was a spy, or that it wasn't even human for that matter.
Again, Moe being super powerful in the psukhe ruins the plot, as he can do, literally, anything to fix any situation. Because the psukhe is undetectable, no one would be the wiser, and because there is almost no text about the psukhe, there's nothing to disprove any theory about it (especially if we ignore everything the text tells us about it, which is necessary to reach the meta-moenghus theories to begin with).
On topic with Meppa, I think we'd be much better off looking for charaster like Mimara: someone who was mentioned vaguely earlier in the series but played almost no role, but then becomes central to the plot.
Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.To be fair, if Moe and the Fanim won, the Mandate would basically need to capitulate to him instead. He's still an Anasurimbor.
Revealing Simas was just to ease that transition, but not all all necessary for his plans, regardless of the outcome. Why not teach the skin-spy sorcery himself and make it into some ultra-uber-meta-psukhe-gnositic-diamos wizard that he could wield to destroy the world, rather than sending it off to some dusty library to rot and then out it himself?
A tool of such fast importance and power would not be so easily disposed for no perceptible gain.
And, by the same arguments those of you posted above, if he did it once, why not do it a million times? Make a whole army, hell a whole nation, THE WORLD EVEN, of skin-spy Psukhari absolutely dominated by him and preciously attuned to his will? They would be unconquerable, and he wouldn't need to send for his son off in Ishual to muck up his plans, or waste his time with silly Maithanet and his tenuous grasp on the Thousand Temples.
This is why the Meta-Moenghus argument is ridiculous. The Psukhe ruins the plot of the books if its allowed to continue. Having Moe be a master of the psukhe AND the tekne... C'mon. He only had 30 years wallowing in the basement of some old mansion with bad plumbing.
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.
I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.
One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.
I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.
One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.
I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.
One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.
I don't know where I heard it before, but where Moe died was directly beneath the spot Esme gave birth. Don't know if that's speculation or fact.
The appendix lists Kuydea as another possible place of ascension. It's either Shimeh on the spot that Esme gives birth to Kayûtas or where Moe dies.
I don't think Meppa is Moe, I think he is linked in some way though.
One thing though does Meppa actually have eyes behind his Geordi LaForge(engineer out of star trek) mask? I was reading a segment and it said his eyes hid behind the silver band. Might just be a turn of phrase though.
I don't know where I heard it before, but where Moe died was directly beneath the spot Esme gave birth. Don't know if that's speculation or fact.
Didn't she give birth on top of a temple in Shimeh?
She had delivered him in Shimeh upon the Holy Juterum, where the Latter Prophet, Inri Sejenus, had ascended to the Heavens two thousand years previous.
Theliopa had come second, born in Nenciphon while Kellhus waged the first of many wars against the drugged princes of Nilnamesh.
Her third child by Kellhus, Serwa, was born in Carythusal with the smell of the Zaudunyani conquest still on the wind—soot and death.
Moe had eyesight also, his snakes we're there the whole time. Another reason I believe he let him stab him. All I can say is Moe had a plan at Kyudea, everything was conditioned by him. Kellhus kicking of the fibrous skull is a hint that everything isn't as Kellhus thinks it is. That is the very place that Inri ascended. Maybe Moe is not Meppa, I think he is. Even if he isn't, something went down in that scene, of that I am certain.
Yes, he had his snakes. I don't think seeing through snakes would be the same or near as good as seeing through human eyes. Didn't Inri ascend in Shimeh? Isn't that the whole reason for wanting to retake the city?
I think you and I just disagree vastly on this, MSJ. I don't think anything happened here other than what we see. I suspect, if anything, this was setting up a reason as to why Kellhus might have destroyed the Dunyain in Ishual.
I doubt the quorum do much magic regardless.
If Moe can do soul transfers and is super powerful, then he can soul transfer a captured mandate schoolman, neuropincture him to do his bidding, wipe it's memories, and send it on back to the mandate. The skin spy wouldn't even know it was a spy, or that it wasn't even human for that matter.
Again, Moe being super powerful in the psukhe ruins the plot, as he can do, literally, anything to fix any situation. Because the psukhe is undetectable, no one would be the wiser, and because there is almost no text about the psukhe, there's nothing to disprove any theory about it (especially if we ignore everything the text tells us about it, which is necessary to reach the meta-moenghus theories to begin with).
On topic with Meppa, I think we'd be much better off looking for charaster like Mimara: someone who was mentioned vaguely earlier in the series but played almost no role, but then becomes central to the plot.
Agree. This is my problem with the Meta-Moe theory as well.
" the Tractate seems to suggest Kyudea and not Shimeh was the location".
Yes, we are miles upon miles apart on this issue. One, don't slide me into Meta-Moe group, because I don't believe that has to be the case. We are told over and over that Moe has spent 30 years and he would be powerful beyond all imagining. Well he wasn't. He messed up by choosing the Psukhe. Yet, he is Dunyain. Do you think he just gave up and said' "I'll have to call my son, and that's that.". No, he was plumbing the secrets of Earwa, went to the Outside, and searched for contradiction of what comes before determines what comes after.
The meeting. What piece of information does Moe give to Kellhus? Huh? None. Every question is met and rebuffed to Moe's ends not Kellhus's. It was a test, plain and simple. Every foot step in Kyudea was conditioned and Kellhus tells us this. I guess the other things I mentioned you just chalk up to Kellhus being a younger Dunyain, and let's just move on. Well fine, you can ignore the clues, I choose not to.
In TJE we come to find out that chorae can do other, wondrous things thought impossible even by Akka. You see it as being tied to the JE, where I see it being explained to us by the JE. The chorae is the chorae regardless, and can do all the wonderous things as long as you know these things. Imho, the JE is used as a way to show us what is possible. What could happen if only you knew.
Does this make Moe, Meppa? Again I think so, but not in the sense that Meppa knows he is Moe. The amnesiac Water -Bearer is too dues ex machina, unless there is an explanation behind him. And honestly, I doubt that we'll ever be told straight out that that is the case. Like anything Bakker, he leaves a trail of breadcrumbs and expects you to put the pieces together. And hell, Kellhus has only wondered the wilderness for what, 25 years? Lol.This I think is the heart of where we differ. Since sorcery is a known quantity on Earwa, I don't think a lone sorcerer (the las Cishaurim!) showing up is deus ex machina in the slightest, but I think the appearance of a character we assume to be dead would be. But that's me. I am glad we have this board to hash out these ideas on, because it has changed my opinion on a lot of things in these books :)
Then again, we could just be off and Meppa really is sent by the Solitary God and his vast supply of Water true divine dispensation. Why lose his memory then? Well, so that he'd be singular in his purpose of representing the Solitary God.
Then again, we could just be off and Meppa really is sent by the Solitary God and his vast supply of Water true divine dispensation. Why lose his memory then? Well, so that he'd be singular in his purpose of representing the Solitary God.
That theory has recently become my favorite. I got to thinking, "what if the Gods are behind everything?" And then assigned a God to each major force in TAA. The Solitary God is the logical option for Fanayal and Meppa.
I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.
That being said, Meppa's lack of memory is, in my mind, one of two things really, either a total red-herring or deeply meaningful. I don't see why that red-herring would even need to be there though, Bakker doesn't seem like the kind of author just to put things in there to just fuck with us. Therefor, I feel like Meppa's origin is important. The other most important Cishaurim that we know of was Moe. Therefor, a Moe-Meppa connection seems plausible to me, even if it raises some odd questions about the Psukhe, soul transfers, and Cnaiur.
I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal? I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs. But what's the motive?
I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal? I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs. But what's the motive?
The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.
ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.
But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.
I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal? I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs. But what's the motive?
The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.
ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.
But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.
But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.
In all honesty buddy, I have absolutely no clue. I'm just spitballing here. If I Could out think the RSB I'd be writing my own novels. Pure speculation, and what little bit I can pull outta thin air.
The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.
I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.
Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight. However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.
Ultimately, kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.
And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.
I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.
I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.
I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.
I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.
I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.
And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.
You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.
I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.
A potential theory on the Moe/Meppa connection: Moe might have hidden him away with the intent of his being Kellhus' assassin.
I can only imagine that a blind dunyain would have far greater spatial awareness than one would think.
Something that always stood out for me,in a small way, was Moe hearing Cnaiur and the SkinSpies before Kellhus did, i always thought that was a shout to other senses being better after losing one. that might be a myth though.
Also if Kellhus recognised Cnaiur from his heartbeat could Moe have done so?
Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation, seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.
I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.
Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight. However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.
Ultimately, kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.
And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.
I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.
I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.
I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.
And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.
You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.
I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.
I think sight is blindness, because sight enforces self-deception.
Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before.
In other words blindness comes before.
The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.
The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.
I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.Then what does a 'meaningful world' actually mean? Or are you saying Earwa is functionally the same as our meaningless world? I admit, its not a topic I understand at all, so I could use a bit of a primer on your thoughts.
Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation, seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.They certainly do, but why is blindness the most important thing here? I don't remember the timeline exactly, but is the thousand thousand halls trial the first major trial or the last? I thought the "the logos is without beginning or end" mantra meditation was the culmination of the dunyain training.
Wilshire the few of us that can see the truth that Meppa is a direct result of what went down in Kyudea do not have to sparse words. Darkness clearly equals blindness. You and Blackstone can set a wallow in your denial, come up with crazy counter arguments. Locke, H and I are very comfortable knowing that when TUC is finished we will have prophesied the enigma that is Meppa. Lol, I love this back and forth. All in good nature her at SA, which is why I love this place. Except for that Blackstone, who will not heed my wisdom. ;) Lol. Cheers. I really do have some more thoughts to add but have to run to work.
Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation, seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.
I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.
Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight. However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.
Ultimately, kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.
And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.
I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.
I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.
I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.
And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.
You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.
I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.
I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.
The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.
I think sight is blindness, because sight enforces self-deception.
Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before.
In other words blindness comes before.
The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.
Folks, the debate is over. I figured out who Meppa is without a doubt. Look inside only if you want to rot your soul FOREVER.Ha ha ha. Awesome.(click to show/hide)