Unless that answer is "Seswatha gave them the map" :-)

2) Bakker has done some super subtle foreshadowing going all the way back to the PON books.  I would like to hint about that, but it’s just too wonderful.  Once you finish TUC, you’ll def want to start the whole journey over.  I know that you know Bakker did this, but the way he did it was surprising and unlooked for.  There are parts of the previous 6 books that foreshadow events in TUC that do not seem to be foreshadowing moments or seem to foreshadow something else entirely.

The No-God walks.

http://spiralhorizon.deviantart.com/art/No-God-low-668418917

That's a good link. What conclusions do you draw from that information?

Here's what I see when I look at that link:
What's left out?
Socioeconomics - Most high crime areas tend to be racially skewed towards non-white population centers.
Race of police officers - May or may not be relevant, but is it still 'racism' if the police that are doing the shootings are all black? Sure, but its not the same kind of racism if all the police are white. To me, I think that kind of information (which isn't available), would change the conversation a lot.

What kinds of other conclusions could be drawn?
The take away could be that the real problem is sexism. Men get killed proportionally more than women, by an enormous margin.
Same with age. Huge margins.
Where are those protests? Men's Lives Matters. Children's lives matter. Non existent, why might that be?


Suggesting, by looking at those numbers, that the only problem (or biggest problem) is racism, requires cherry picking data. If anything, its very clearly unclear, at least to me.

How good is this information?
Only about 50% of the people who are killed are of a known race (according to this article).
50%? How can you draw any statistically valid conclusions with a margin of error of 50%?


For me, in the end, in the last two years this article indicates that some 2000 people have been killed by police. In the same time period, 5 million people have died in the US. Nearly 100,000 have died from suicide over the same two year period. (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm - extrapolate for 2 years). The idea that every time someone is killed by a police officer it needs to be national news is totally ludicrous to me. At best, its local or state news. Expanding that to weeks long national news seems odd to me.

At best, it seems what we're talking about are statistical anomalies based on incomplete data sets that don't properly cross reference other relevant data sets.


I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist, nor that it isn't a problem. I'm saying that  one must be careful what conclusions are drawn - and closely examine the why behind those conclusions. If you're stance is that these numbers portray an obvious racism problem, why? It could be that they do, but I'm interested in why.

Quote from: Hiro on November 07, 2016, 12:36:59 pm

And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?

There's actually some fascinating research on this subject, though unfortunately you'd have to filter out political bias/rhetoric, as most of the research on the subject is done by the opposition party.

In general, I find data the best lense to look through these types of subjects, when such data exists. Racism, sexism, etc-isms. There's a lot out there, especially in the US, just be careful what conclusions you draw from whichever bias its being filtered through before you get to it. Without the citation of relevant and complete statistical evidence, these conversations may as well be impossible to have, as either side just talks past the other until both are too upset to continue (speaking generally, not specifically this post)

Quote from: Hiro on November 07, 2016, 12:36:59 pm

Quote from: Redeagl on November 03, 2016, 09:29:59 pm

I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.

You do realize, - if you have taken the time to read my posts -, that I was not offended in the first place, right? Apparently just using the word 'racist' was enough for people to think I was, funny how that works, I mean: who is actually feeling offended? I do not feel the need to reiterate my points again. See the other thread.

However, just because you feel that skin color doesn't matter, does not mean that there is no racism in society at large. And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?

First of all I think that you should know something about me. I am not American, I am Egyptian.Second I don't think you have read my post, "Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( NO I DON'T MEAN YOU HIRO) " you probably have missed this last bit 
Last I know about the American cops shooting black people thing, when that happens you protest against cops shooting people. Aren't black people normal people or what??  you see I am a Muslim too and right now Muslims ( I know that Islam is not a race but I don't know a better word) are getting racism from most people in Europe and America alike. Do you see me screaming RACISM every single second? If so then Bakker's books are racist. The Fanim never won a battle in the Prince Of Nothing trilogy. Self wallowing for no reason is stupid.That's it for now.