The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:15:27 am

Title: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:15:27 am
Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
I think I had mentioned this at some point way back on Westeros, buried in one of the earlier WLW threads, but I felt Cleric pretty much threw the fight with Akka...

This quote from the Wracu thread jogged my memory:

Quote
"Walking between Wards is easy," a voice hummed, "when their author practises other arcana."

We see a similar event when Cleric pulls a creepy watching-you-while-you-sleep on Mimara:

Quote
Even as she asks this, she realizes that only sorcery, subtle sorcery, could have made this visitation possible. She thinks she can even sense it, or at the very least
guess at its outlines, the warping of the Wizard's incipient Wards. It was as if he had simply bent the circumference of Achamian's conjuring, pressed into his arcane defences as if they were no more than a half-filled bladder.


So, at the very least, defeating Akka's wards when he is asleep is pretty much child's play for Akka. Presumably Cleric's Quyan sorcery is pretty badass all around. Akka clearly had difficulty doing more than fending Cleric off while they fight. I guess the key point comes with:

Quote
And so they battled, the Gnostic Wizard uttering no Cants, the Quyan Mage speaking no Wards. Broken walls encircled them, surrounded in turn by the oily tumble
of smoke and trees wrapped in shining flame.

Does Cleric willfully avoid even any incipient wards, or is he too distracted by madness and trying to remember that he simply forgets to set his wards?

My suspicion is that it was a conscious choice... He finally gave up, and while perhaps not an active suicide, he at least didn't try very hard to prevent his own death when he probably could have...

Where has the glory gone, indeed?
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:15:34 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Much like death by cop, it's death by Akka.

Then the world conspires to put pointy rocks there when Akka just gives a shove...
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:15:41 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Seems unlikely to me. He just killed a badass dragon, so he was inevitably a bit tired, and I doubt he would have survived this long just to lay down and die.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:15:49 am
Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
Wutteat wasn't killed during his Akka/Cleric fight. He flew away. He's some kind of undead thing right now. Dragon-Zombie-esque.

Cleric was pretty badass all-around. I can't see him accidentally forgetting to set incipient wards.

From tDtCB:

Quote
“This is what separates your kind from mine. Fear. The clawing, grubbing, impulse to survive. For us life is always a . . . decision. For you . . . Well, let us just say it decides.”

I think he finally chose, but wouldn't do it himself.

From t4RoCJ:

Quote
He has wondered whether death would be beautiful. He has wondered how the end of memory would appear at memory’s end. He has wondered what it means to so outrun glory as to become blind to disgrace. It seems proper that these screeching animals show him.

I get the feeling that for some Nonmen, death by human is preferable to death by Min-Uroikas, or other Nonman.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:15:56 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote
Wutteat wasn't killed during his Akka/Cleric fight.
It was totally a dragon kill! He just flies away so the next mmorpg raid can fight him and collect the phat purple loots next time!
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:16:01 am
Quote from: Madness
Lol, perhaps, if you'd like to consider this a fantasy campaign, it's one with longer reaching consequences than that.

Wutteat returns to his Masters. He's learned that Men live in the South and the World is not dead.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:16:11 am
Quote from: Borque
He definitely suicided, in my mind. Makes a lot of sense.

One indication is that he emptied his Qirri pouch before the fight. It wouldn't make any sense to do that  if he planned on going back to business as usual after the fight.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:16:16 am
Quote from: Borric
He actually said “this is where i die”, before the fight.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:16:22 am
Quote from: Tony P
Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
Cleric was pretty badass all-around. I can't see him accidentally forgetting to set incipient wards.

From tDtCB:

Quote
“This is what separates your kind from mine. Fear. The clawing, grubbing, impulse to survive. For us life is always a . . . decision. For you . . . Well, let us just say it decides.”

I think he finally chose, but wouldn't do it himself.

I think he definitely didn't simply forget. He chose to take a risk (as the quote above indicates). He's also trying to create events that are so powerful/painful that he will be able to remember them, so he's not trying to come out of this unscathed. He wants an event so grand and/or traumatic that it will resonate. I think that's also why he doesn't set wards. No risk, no glory; or rather, no risk, no pain.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:16:30 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Thought this was relevant or at least interesting.

"The young can never see life for what it is: a knife's edge, as thing as the breaths that measure it. What gives it depth isn't memory. I've memories enough for ten men, and yet my days are as thin and as shadowy as the greased linen the poor stretch over their windows. No, what gives life depth is the future. Without a future, without a horizon of promise or threat, our lives have no meaning. Only the future is real"
Skeaos, Page 240 (USA Paperback edition)

It seems to point out the difference between man and Nonman, or at least some misunderstanding.

Perhaps the future finally collapsed for our proud Nonman friend here. He could no longer distinguish past from present from future, and therefore felt no need to remain alive.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:16:37 am
Quote from: Triskele
I'm still intrigued by the suggestion that Cleric could possibly be the only person really aware of the inverse fire who did not join the Consult.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:16:42 am
Quote from: Madness
+1, Trisk... Noble.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:16:54 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Cleric outright tells us the reason he didn't join the Consult was just "Pride", not any sense of nobility or self-sacrifice.

Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:17:00 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Many see pride as one of the penultimate traits of nobility. And he is noble, or at least was at some point.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:17:06 am
Quote from: Madness
It's interesting, Duskweaver, isn't it? And thus, begins the beautiful spillover into life.

It seems to me that pride and nobility may be parts of the same sphere. Pride is indistinguishable from nobility aside context, how those who view it, define it. I mean, that is certainly the case and gamut with every perspectival mechanism we're highlighting, that person within and the one without and the creature that embodies that paradox in the world - come back to that latros.

We've weaved a certain narrative in the Bakker noosphere about Nil'giccas, that remains pretty unsubstantiated.

Quote from: The False Sun
(click to show/hide)

This is the main piece of evidence. Obviously, it fits with everything else we've been given on Nil'giccas at this point but it makes huge differences in our interpretation of ambiguity.

As the above stands, I think what Nil'giccas did was... a strength of some kind, whether it counts as nobility. However, Shaeonanra might as easily be spouting conjecture - perhaps, Nil'giccas just listened to the Quya he could trust and killed the two Ishroi, on Cet'ingira's word. Then it becomes Mekeritrig's heartbreaking dissonance, that he stomachs for... all of human history.

But the narrative seems to suggest that Nil'giccas killed the Ishroi on Cet'ingira's word but then later believed the Ishroi but continued Cet'ingira's lie with him.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:17:13 am
Quote from: Triskele
Perhaps Cleric knows that Mek told him about the inverse fire, but perhaps he did not believe it. 

Perhaps it is something similar to Seswatha's heart as we've speculated, but Cleric realized this and knew what it did to the Consult and thus didn't want anyone else looking at it.

If this is the case, than Shae's response would make some sense from the perspective of someone who had looked into the IF.  Shae, having had looked at it, cannot conceive of anyone who doesn't get it, so he believes that Cleric must be lying.  But perhaps Cleric simply still could assess in a way that one who has looked into the IF could not.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Garet Jax on June 14, 2014, 03:12:00 pm
Death by cop/Akka in my opinion.


He recognizes Akka as Seswatha and Mimara as his long dead wife.  The battle with Wutteat makes him remember these things.


He empties his pouch, so that Sewatha and his wife will burn and consume him, because he loves them.


They need strength on their journey ahead.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Wilshire on June 16, 2014, 03:01:08 am
Very nice GJ. I like this.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: SilentRoamer on June 16, 2014, 03:11:06 pm
GJ I read that the same as you except in I may see erraticism differently.

I don't think he recognised Akka + Mim as Ses + Wife. I think the trauma of Wutteat allowed him to recognise himself and at the moment before he died he was actually an Intact.



Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Garet Jax on June 16, 2014, 09:23:33 pm

p.579 WLW Hardcover first edition

"Once again they sit knee to knee, as father and daughter.  Once again they taste the other's finger. But this time the ash is more white than black, and the strength that shivers through them has a more melancholy tenor..."

This part also makes me curious.  Why the change?  Is it due to the length of time Nil'giccas was wandering and gathering sins?  Is it the possibility that he "sacrificed" himself for others as I postulated above?


Any thoughts?



Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: SilentRoamer on June 16, 2014, 10:34:58 pm
My post wasnt entirely clear GJ. I agree with you to some extent, I think Nil'giccas saw Ses and Wife in Akka and Mim. I just think at the end he knew who they were and knew who he was and for that moment he was Intact as he died. I don't imagine an Erratics ashes would be melancholic, I believe an Intacts would.

GJ I definetely think you are right on attributing a sacrifice to some residual affection for Ses and Wife, death by Akka, Nil'giccas had Akka overmatched in my opinion and he wasn't even singing Wards...

Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Francis Buck on June 24, 2014, 06:03:20 am
Death by cop/Akka in my opinion.


He recognizes Akka as Seswatha and Mimara as his long dead wife.  The battle with Wutteat makes him remember these things.


He empties his pouch, so that Sewatha and his wife will burn and consume him, because he loves them.


They need strength on their journey ahead.

That's my current interpretation as well, along with SilentRoamers note on Cleric seeing Mim and Akka as representations of the people he'd lost (thus making him, in the end, truly remember). I definitely think the dispensation of the qirri was premeditated as well.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Cüréthañ on June 24, 2014, 08:47:29 am
Cleric says he will die when they enter the Coffers.
If anything, he might be short circuiting his erratic tendencies - but I really believe his death is part of Mimara's conditioned path. 
Some facts that are inconsistent with attempted erratic betrayal. 
- He warns Akka what he is about to do and doesn't defend himself. 
- He remembers Mimara's name and becomes NG without killing her, much earlier. 
- Seswatha never had a wife.
- He seems to expect Wutteat's presence and doesn't react at all when Akka reveals his motive to retrieve the map.
- Last 'sermon' can be read as describing the dunyain and his intent to spend his life to destroy the Consult.

Clerics actions throughout TJE and WLW are far too deliberate to be the haphazard meandering of an erratic.
From his insinuation amongst the Skin Eaters, his manipulations that ensure they go through Cil Aujis - also his sure memories of critical information, his use and distribution of Qirri and his relationship with Mimara, there are deep and clear signals that he is much more than a lost erratic.

He is probably very close to losing it though, I think and knows that the Qirri can't keep him from full blown erraticism for much longer.  For me, Cleric believes he has achieved something very important by delivering DA and AM to the coffers and chooses to end his life there.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Garet Jax on June 24, 2014, 05:14:18 pm

- Seswatha never had a wife.


Not sure if that was directed at me.  But, just for the sake of clarity, (which my post wasn't full of) I meant that Mimara reminds Cleric of Cleric's wife and not Seswatha's non existent wife.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Cüréthañ on June 24, 2014, 07:15:21 pm
Kinda, I guess... you made me think of it anyway.
Only mentioned because, in text, Cleric always calls Akka 'Seswatha' and tells him to go save his 'wife and child' (refering to Mimara) when they face the Wracu.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: mrganondorf on July 02, 2014, 02:21:52 am
Could be pretty cool if Seswatha had a wife and has hidden her from the dreams and history books.  There's speculation elsewhere that Seswatha impregnated as much of Nron as he could manage.  Maybe we'll get some freaky dream scene in TUC where Seswatha finds out that his wife has the judging eye!  Could Cleric be thinking of Nau-Cayuti's mom as Seswatha's wife?

Not long before Cleric snuffs it, he says "'We are Many!' the Erratic roared.  'We are legion!  What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability!  A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One."

If Cleric is telling the truth (huge if), I wonder what it would mean for Earwan metaphysics.  That a soul be one seems necessary for things like a Wathi doll, but maybe Kellhus sees this and knows it's an illusion, is able to do more amazing things with animata because he doesn't rely on the principle that souls are one.

Cleric's quote also seems neat because it seems to mirror the whole Bakkerverse what with god being a million warring pieces.  The soul is isomorphic with the whole a la Plato!

Also reminded of Serwa's bit about having 2 souls.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 03, 2014, 03:03:33 am
Remember in Kellhus' training flashbacks he masters his 'legion'?

And somewhere Akka links what he knows of the dunyain to Nonman mystery cults.

The dunyain super-powers are the result of being fully present in every moment and clearly get their superbuff from the metaphysics that allow some individuals to 'see' and affect beyond the limits of physical perception.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: mrganondorf on July 03, 2014, 03:44:58 am
Remember in Kellhus' training flashbacks he masters his 'legion'?

And somewhere Akka links what he knows of the dunyain to Nonman mystery cults.

The dunyain super-powers are the result of being fully present in every moment and clearly get their superbuff from the metaphysics that allow some individuals to 'see' and affect beyond the limits of physical perception.

You make me wonder what a Nonman would be like if he had Dunyain training!  Hell, maybe that's what they are doing in Ishterebinth anyways and the original Dunyain got all their methods from Nil'giccas and co.  Wonder if, on a long enough timeline, Kellhus would succumb in the same manner as Cleric?
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Wilshire on July 04, 2014, 06:52:50 pm
Might it be the other way around: that the Dunyain's mastery of the 'legion' within the self allows erratics to become Intact?
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: mrganondorf on July 06, 2014, 09:50:38 pm
That would be an amazing bargaining chip.  But, would it mostly sway the Intact who could be succumbing?  The Erratics, their minds are so fucked, would they know to desire the Dunyain method?

Wilshire, if what you say is true, the Dunyain just have to be a Seswatha project to get the last Nonmen to help fighting Golgotterath.  S doesn't know how to do it, but he knows if he sends so monks up into the mountains and let them work on the problem for a few millenia, they will eventually learn how to heal an Erratic.

On that subject, Erratics get that way from having too much experience.  So the 'cure' could have something to do with purging their minds of most of what they know to have a coherent self and room on the hard drive to sustain them until another reset.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Wilshire on July 23, 2014, 01:38:44 pm
Tha makes some sense. Was it a direct goal or was it a coincidental byproduct...

Maybe that is indeed the price to be intact. Many of the Nonmen  are probably unwilling to purge their memories even though they drive them mad. The intact would be pretty lame if they only had a few decades of memories.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: mrganondorf on August 29, 2014, 09:24:56 pm
I bet we meet Nin'janjin and he has a huge inchoroi-like skull grafted on to give him more brain
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 12:52:20 am
If the Consult offered to fix the Inchoroi's little oversight with the Nonmen (upgrading their memory capacity to match their limitless age instead of keeping mortal minds in immortal bodies until the memories overflow and become garbled) that might explain why the mansion went over to the Consult.

Although it just strikes me another option is possible. The Consult have re-mastered the tekne. The Skin-Spies are new, so that means they understand it on a fundamental level now. No longer are they reliant on half-remembered techniques and blind aping of what Inchoroi scientists did untold eons ago.

If they wanted too, they could probably clone some Nonmen females. Their race could have a future again, if they just accepted the No-God.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Wilshire on September 05, 2014, 07:14:03 pm
I wonder, do they count towards the 144k?
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: The Sharmat on September 05, 2014, 08:10:40 pm
I always just assumed any ensouled being counted.

Do we have any idea how many Non-men still live at the last mansion?
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Triskele on September 07, 2014, 09:42:01 pm
Do we have any idea how many Non-men still live at the last mansion?

I do not believe that we've really been given any inkling other than that it should be a mostly functioning society.  But whether that means thousands or a dwindling hundred, I don't think we know. 

Doesn't it seem like there should be a few more wandering Nonmen like Cleric in the Three Seas?  Even if the mansions at Kyudea and Cil-Aujas are no more, it still seems like, especially given their power, there'd be a few more rogue, wandering erratics popping up. 
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Francis Buck on September 07, 2014, 10:19:31 pm
I think most of them in the central Three Seas are extinct, but there must be some, although I expect they're rare, and most probably either stay underground or have relocated back up north. Do we know where the "Four Revelations" story took place? If we assume that it really was Conphas in that story (I personally feel confidant that it was), then it can't have been THAT far north, even if it took place during the wars he lead against Saubon?
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Triskele on September 07, 2014, 10:38:36 pm
Oh, forgot about that Four Revelations story.  Do we ever get any location clues besides the fact that Conphas is in it?

I think when I got to the Marrow portion in TJE and a Nonman appeared, I was like "It seems like there ought to be a few more hanging around the Three Seas, but maybe Marrow is a special exception as it's so far removed from society proper?

Man, what if men captured an erratic in the Three Seas and put them in a circus or something.  What happens to an erratic that gets stuck in a cage? 
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Francis Buck on September 07, 2014, 11:47:12 pm
Oh, forgot about that Four Revelations story.  Do we ever get any location clues besides the fact that Conphas is in it?

I think when I got to the Marrow portion in TJE and a Nonman appeared, I was like "It seems like there ought to be a few more hanging around the Three Seas, but maybe Marrow is a special exception as it's so far removed from society proper?

Man, what if men captured an erratic in the Three Seas and put them in a circus or something.  What happens to an erratic that gets stuck in a cage? 

I just checked the story on TPB real quick. There are quotes, but none of the typical location/date signifiers we usually see (even TFS had these -- I expect it was a stylistic choice, meant to throw off the reader). I did skim the story and didn't notice anything, but it's a pretty chaotic little piece so I may very well have missed a bunch of shit.

Either way I do suspect that, with the Nonman becoming more and more prominent in the series as it goes on, we may learn of them existing lower in the Three-Seas. The idea of a Nonman trapped in a cage at a circus somewhere down south is brilliantly haunting. It does also seem like the public should know more about them (especially with the "ghoul" references.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 12:53:51 am
I imagine an erratic wanders down from time to time but I suspect they're pretty rapidly killed by a mob when it happens.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: mrganondorf on September 09, 2014, 10:47:35 am
Oh, forgot about that Four Revelations story.  Do we ever get any location clues besides the fact that Conphas is in it?

I think when I got to the Marrow portion in TJE and a Nonman appeared, I was like "It seems like there ought to be a few more hanging around the Three Seas, but maybe Marrow is a special exception as it's so far removed from society proper?

Man, what if men captured an erratic in the Three Seas and put them in a circus or something.  What happens to an erratic that gets stuck in a cage? 

AMAZING!  I WANT THIS TO BE A THING!

Sometimes it preaches...
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 09, 2014, 12:57:03 pm
Scripture dictates they are slain.
There are a lot of religious nuts in Earwa.
The sagas mention the erratics riding around behind the sranc legions, killing survivors.  I imagine that is part of the reason they are called ghouls.  They are pretty much feared bogey-men.
Also, erratics are fucking dangerous...  how do you know if it has the Gnosis? Most people don't have trinkets.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: mrganondorf on September 09, 2014, 04:56:43 pm
I'm thinking of nonman lessers and definitely minus magic.  Such a creature could end up in Cingulat circus, i think...
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2014, 02:52:19 pm
I imagine an erratic wanders down from time to time but I suspect they're pretty rapidly killed by a mob when it happens.

Scripture dictates they are slain.
There are a lot of religious nuts in Earwa.
The sagas mention the erratics riding around behind the sranc legions, killing survivors.  I imagine that is part of the reason they are called ghouls.  They are pretty much feared bogey-men.
Also, erratics are fucking dangerous...  how do you know if it has the Gnosis? Most people don't have trinkets.

To many crazies in the Three Seas for even the erratics to want to visit. Almost certain death, but I would think the suicidal might want to create just one more memory before they died... Like showing up and nuking a city, etc. Maybe they have all just been hunted so thoroughly that all the nonmen have abandoned the three sees, and just use the Inchoroi's dred mechanisms to create memories. The promise of a final, true, apocalypse would be very alluring at this point. An memory like no other, maybe even strong enough to anchor their thoughts for a long time to come.
Title: Re: The Cleric Suicides...
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 05:34:39 pm
lol, think of the massive changes in the course of human history if, for example, a quya mage just happened to wander through an ongoing battle!

maybe this is what happened to kyudea :)