The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 01:59:09 pm
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Now that the reread project has reached Chapter 15, I feel it's time to take a look at the only onscreen Seswatha Dream in The Darkness That Comes Before. The Celmomian Prophecy. This dream occurs in Chapter one--we will call the chapter one iteration SD1.1--and it occurs in Chapter fifteen--we will the chapter 15 iteration SD1.2. The Warrior Prophet Chapter 1 continuation of this dream (via Nautzera) will be referred to as SD1.3.
As far as I can recall, this is the only Seswatha dream that is repeated on screen, and extremely few Seswatha dreams of this variety are had over the course of the five books--at least from Achamian's perspective. So its repetition is all the more interesting, so let's go through line by line and look at how they compare and contrast, all Italics are as in the original, and watch carefully because they change from 1.1 to 1.2.
SD1.1
Achamian watched Anasûrimbor Celmomas, the last High King of Kûniüri, fall beneath the hammer of a baying Sranc chieftain. Even though Achamian cried out, he knew with the curious half-awareness belonging to dreams that the greatest king of the Anasûrimbor Dynasty was already dead—had been dead for more than two thousand years. And he knew, moreover, that it was not he himself who wailed, but a far greater man. Seswatha.
The words boiled to his lips. The Sranc chieftain flailed through blistering fire, collapsed into a bundle of rags and ash. More Sranc swept the summit of the hill and more died, struck down by the unearthly lights summoned by his song. Beyond, he glimpsed a distant dragon, like a figure of bronze in the setting sun, hanging above warring fields of Sranc and Men, and he thought: The last Anasûrimbor King has fallen. Kûniüri is lost.
Crying out the name of their king, the tall knights of Trysë surged about him, sprinting over the Sranc he had burned and falling like madmen upon the masses beyond. With a knight whom he did not know, Achamian dragged Anasûrimbor Celmomas through the frantic cries of his vassals and kinsmen, through the smell of blood, bowel, and charred flesh. In a small clearing, he pulled the King’s broken body across his lap.
SD1.2
And then Achamian found himself on the Fields of Eleneöt, dragging the broken body of a great High King from the clamour of war.
As can be seen here, SD1.1 offers a longer introduction, and SD1.2 picks up only at the ending. the primary repetition here is of the King's broken body, but in 1.1, a knight helps to drag the body, in 1.2 the implication is that Achamian alone drug the body alone, but this is minor and not conclusive, nor all that important a discrepancy.
SD1.1
Celmomas’s blue eyes, ordinarily so cold, beseeched him. “Leave me,” the grey-bearded king gasped.
SD1.2
Celmomas’s blue eyes beseeched him. “Leave me,” the grey-bearded king gasped.
SD1.1
“No,” Achamian replied. “If you die, Celmomas, all is lost.” The High King smiled despite his ruined lips. “Do you see the sun? Do you see it flare, Seswatha?”
SD1.2
“No . . . If you die, Celmomas, all is lost.”
SD1.2
But the High King smiled through ruined lips. “Do you see the sun? Do you see it flare, Seswatha?”
Note that in the kindle edition at least, these are broken into separate paragraphs in SD1.2 but not in SD1.1.
SD1.1
“The sun sets,” Achamian replied.
SD1.2
“The sun sets,” Achamian replied, tears now spilling across his cheeks.
SD1.1
“Yes! Yes. The darkness of the No-God is not all-encompassing. The Gods see us yet, dear friend. They are distant, but I can hear them galloping across the skies. I can hear them cry out to me.”
SD1.2
“Yes! Yes . . . The darkness of the No-God is not all-encompassing. The Gods see us yet, dear friend. They are distant, but I can hear them galloping across the skies. I can hear them cry out to me.”
SD1.1
“You cannot die, Celmomas! You must not die!”
SD1.2
“You cannot die, Celmomas! You must not die!”
SD1.1
The High King shook his head, stilled him with tender eyes. “They call to me. They say that my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha.”
SD1.2
The High King shook his head, tears streaming from curiously tender eyes. “They call to me. They say my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours . . . Yours, Seswatha.”
Significant change in italics here.
SD1.1
“No,” Achamian whispered.
SD1.2
“No,” Achamian whispered.
SD1.1
“The sun! Can you see the sun? Feel it upon your cheek? Such revelations are hidden in such simple things. I see! I see so clearly what a bitter, stubborn fool I have been . . . And to you, you most of all, have I been unjust. Can you forgive an old man? Can you forgive a foolish old man?”
SD1.2
“The sun! Can you see the sun? Feel it upon your cheek? Such revelations are hidden in such simple things. I see! I see so clearly what a bitter, stubborn fool I have been . . . And to you, you most of all, have I been unjust. Can you forgive an old man? Can you forgive a foolish old man?”
SD1.1
“There’s nothing to forgive, Celmomas. You’ve lost much, suffered much.”
SD1.2
“There is nothing to forgive, Celmomas. You’ve lost much, suffered much.”
SD1.1
“My son . . . Do you think he’ll be there, Seswatha? Do you think he’ll greet me as his father?”
SD1.2
“My son . . . Do you think he’ll be there, Seswatha? Do you think he’ll greet me as his father?”
SD1.1
“Yes . . . As his father, and as his king.”
SD1.2
“Yes. As his father and as his king.”
SD1.1
“Did I ever tell you,” Celmomas said, his voice cracking with futile pride, “that my son once stole into the deepest pits of Golgotterath?”
SD1.2
“Did I ever tell you,” Celmomas said, his voice cracking with heartbroken pride, “that my son once stole into the deepest pits of Golgotterath?”
SD1.1
“Yes.” Achamian smiled through his tears. “Many times, old friend.”
SD1.2
“Yes.” Achamian smiled through his tears. “Many times, old friend.”
SD1.1
“How I miss him, Seswatha! How I yearn to stand at his side once again.”
SD1.2
“How I miss him, Seswatha! How I yearn to stand at his side once again.”
SD1.1
The old king wept for a moment. Then his eyes grew wide. “I see him so clearly. He’s taken the sun as his charger, and he rides among us. I see him! Galloping through the hearts of my people, stirring them to wonder and fury!”
SD1.2
The old king wept for a moment. Then his eyes grew wide. “I see him so clearly. He’s taken the sun as his charger, and he rides among us. I see him! Galloping through the hearts of my people, stirring them to wonder and fury!”
Note the italics change here! and there are some other minor discrepencies, but my commentary will have to wait til this is all posted.
SD1.1
“Shush . . . Conserve your strength, my King. The surgeons are coming.”
SD1.2
“Shush . . . Conserve your strength, my King. The surgeons are coming.”
SD1.1
“He says . . . says such sweet things to give me comfort. He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha—an Anasûrimbor will return . . .” A shudder wracked the old man, forcing breath and spittle through his teeth.
SD1.2
“He says . . . says such sweet things to give me comfort . . . He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha. An Anasûrimbor will return—” The High King winced and shuddered. Spittle hissed through clenched teeth.
Major italics shift here.
SD1.1
“At the end of the world.”
SD1.2
“—at the end of the world.”
SD1.1
The bright eyes of Anasûrimbor Celmomas II, White Lord of Trysë, High King of Kûniüri, went blank. And with them, the evening sun faltered, plunging the bronze-armoured glory of the Norsirai into twilight
SD1.2
Then the shining eyes of Anasûrimbor Celmomas II, White Lord of Trysë, High King of Kûniüri, grew slack and dull. The evening sun flashed then flickered out, and the gleaming bronze of the Norsirai host paled in the No-God’s twilight.
SD1.1
“Our King!” Achamian cried to the stricken men encircling him. “Our King is dead!”
SD1.2
“Our King!” Achamian cried to the grim knights about him. “Our King is dead!”
SD1.3Pitched from nightmare to nightmare, Achamian at last found the sleeping man he sought: Nautzera in his dream, seated on blood-muddied turf, cradling a dead king on his lap. “Our King is dead!” Nautzera cried in Seswatha’s voice. “Anasûrimbor Celmomas is dead!”
SD1.3
An unearthly roar hammered his ears. Achamian whirled, raising his hands against a titanic shadow.
Wracu … Dragon.
Billowing gusts staggered those standing, waved the arms of those fallen. Cries of dismay and horror rifled the air, then a cataract of boiling gold engulfed Nautzera and the High King’s attendants. There was no time for screams. Teeth cracked. Bodies tumbled like coals from a kicked fire.
Achamian turned and saw Nautzera amid a field of smoking husks. Shielded by his Wards, the sorcerer laid the dead king on the ground, whispering words Achamian could not hear but had dreamed innumerable times: “Turn your soul’s eye from this world, dear friend … Turn so that your heart might be broken no more.”
With the force of a toppled tower, the dragon thundered to earth, his descent yanking smoke and ash into towering veils. Portcullis jaws clacked shut. Wings like war-galley sails stretched out. The light of burning corpses shimmered across iridescent scales of black.
“Our Lord,” the dragon grated, “hath tasted thy King’s passing, and he saith, ‘It is done.’”
Nautzera stood before the golden-horned abomination. “Not while I draw breath, Skafra!” he cried. “Never!”
Laughter, like the wheezing of a thousand consumptive men. The Great Dragon reared his bull-chest above the sorcerer, revealing a necklace of steaming human heads.
“Thou art overthrown, sorcerer. Thy tribe hath perished, dashed like a potter’s vessel by our fury. The earth is sown with thy nation’s blood, and soon thine enemies will compass thee with bent bow and whetted bronze. Wilt thou not repent thy folly? Wilt thou not abase thyself before our Lord?”
“As do you, mighty Skafra? As the exalted Tyrant of Cloud and Mountain abases himself?”
Membranes flickered across the dragon’s quicksilver eyes. A blink. “I am not a God.”
Nautzera smiled grimly. Seswatha said, “Neither is your lord.”
Great stamping limbs and the gnashing of iron teeth. A cry from furnace lungs, as deep as an ocean’s moan and as piercing as an infant’s shriek.
Uncowed by the dragon’s thrashing bulk, Nautzera suddenly turned to Achamian, his face bewildered.
“Who are you?”
“One who shares your dreams …”
For a moment they were like two men drowning, two souls kicking for sharp air … Then darkness. The silent nowhere that housed men’s souls.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 328-343). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
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The text is largely the same, there is some difference in emphasis, as indicated by the italics, but the dialog, so far as I can tell does not change. What does change is Achamian's perception of that dialog and how he narrates it. I think putting them side by side you can see that when Achamian is more present there are small differences in style/diction and perhaps in tense. I think when Seswatha is more present the style shifts to a more archaic feel, akin to the feel found in The False Sun. it's more rhymthic/verse oriented compared to the Achamian dominant approach which has more of a prose description akin to the rest of the novel.
Also, I had never really noted before how much of this dream circulates on SEEING. But then also, his eyes are SHINING in one version, and who do we know SHINES in the third SIGHT? What do you see Celmomas? And since there are three italics changes and one of them is simply the word "see" I think we're being directed to concentrate on the seeing (or not-seeing) in this dream. What does it mean to "see" the future anyway? Does he see as the White Luck Warrior sees? And note that on his death it is not a 'tunnel of light' that is so popular in western culture currently, but an awareness of "being watched" what are readers of a novel other than watchers? (but perhaps that's too meta?)
Nor had I noted that rather disturbing and intriguing discrepancy in the penultimate lines, perhaps the most noteworthy change from 1.1 to 1.2, regarding the twilight as belonging to the No God. rather than it just being Twilight the first time around. Also noteworthy are the changes in the final lines, where Achamian was surrounded by stricken men (poetic license could mean either they were all dead or simply shocked at the death of Celmomas) and in the second surrounded by grim men (poetic license could equally mean both here).
But note that because the vast majority of the text is absolutely identical, we can safely assume that each iteration was not separately written. The versions are too alike to not be purposefully different, and each change signifies that the author is signalling the reader's attention in a different way than he did before. The perfect repetition highlights each change. The difference from period to ellipsis, from period to comma suggests there is something going on there, perhaps just mood, perhaps more.
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Wow I'm kind of surprised that no one has done this yet, thanks a lot. Much easier to see.
Something that occurred to me when reading these side by side was Celmomas's son/sun and the no-god. Independent of your comment btw, which is also interesting.
The vision that Celmomas has of the sun, light, twilight, and darkness, is almost like an inversion of reality. The sun is not flaring, the light is fading not rising.
This, combined with how he says 'his son' has seized the sun and is riding through the hearts of all people and his rallying them, fighting for them, this kind of thing. Now, we know that the No-God is felt in the hearts of everyone, but this effect is, again, the opposite.
Perhaps there is some credence to the theory regarding NC = No-God. If you take all Celmomas's discriptions as more or less opposite, then he is basically saying that his son has become the no-sun, is riding against them, and is casing all to feel no-hope.
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Also, I had never really noted before how much of this dream circulates on SEEING. But then also, his eyes are SHINING in one version, and who do we know SHINES in the third SIGHT? What do you see Celmomas? And since there are three italics changes and one of them is simply the word "see" I think we're being directed to concentrate on the seeing (or not-seeing) in this dream. What does it mean to "see" the future anyway? Does he see as the White Luck Warrior sees? And note that on his death it is not a 'tunnel of light' that is so popular in western culture currently, but an awareness of "being watched" what are readers of a novel other than watchers? (but perhaps that's too meta?)
This reminds me of Kelmomas in WLW. When he kills people, he looks into their eyes, and his inner narration talks about some external watcher that comes with death that he sees within.
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I updated the first post with SD1.3 which is very nearly an exact continuation of SD1.1 and SD1.2 and thusly they should probably be read together.
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Also, I had never really noted before how much of this dream circulates on SEEING. But then also, his eyes are SHINING in one version, and who do we know SHINES in the third SIGHT? What do you see Celmomas? And since there are three italics changes and one of them is simply the word "see" I think we're being directed to concentrate on the seeing (or not-seeing) in this dream. What does it mean to "see" the future anyway? Does he see as the White Luck Warrior sees? And note that on his death it is not a 'tunnel of light' that is so popular in western culture currently, but an awareness of "being watched" what are readers of a novel other than watchers? (but perhaps that's too meta?)
This reminds me of Kelmomas in WLW. When he kills people, he looks into their eyes, and his inner narration talks about some external watcher that comes with death that he sees within.
Coming back to both this thought on Kelmomas, but also looking at the prophecy and noting how much it circulates and centralizes on SEEING as a motif (what do you see!) I was struck by this key passage of Kellhus' first onscreen Imprompta in The Warrior Prophet. Perhaps this sheds some light on Kelmomas, but also points us to the failure of the Mandate since the Consult "disappeared". That is to say, the Mandate--particularly Achamian--has stopped witnessing the apocalypse and instead only see it. They no longer testify. In fact the beginning of this chapter begins with the beguiling thought that Achamian had SEEN too much war, not witnessed, simply SEEN. And also note that this selection ends with Achamian quoting the Mandate motto, (actually it ends with him mentally deciding Esmenet is equal to Kellhus, or that's the beginning of a similar series of hagiographic thoughts on her). The fact that this story leads Achamian to thinking about the "gain the whole world but lose your soul" indicates to a degree that Kellhus was conditioning Achamian with this story. To an extent--this is where Kellhus begins to plan to send Achamian away from him, Compendium of the First Holy War is a testament, a witness, it is a seeing that is meaningful. And for it to be taken as legitimate, for the seeing to become witness to become testament, Kellhus needed to send Achamian away from him, at this point Kellhus probably plans to use Esmenet for leverage against Achamian to force this issue. (and note that Achamian's testimony, his book, is crucial in persuading many elite that though Kellhus may be thought of as a god, he is really just a man, not a god, and more importantly, not a demon, the Yatwerians rely on calling Kellhus demon, but this natural progression of refuting his godhood by calling him demon is preemptively castrated by Achamian's hostile testimony, his assertion of Kellhus' humanness is more credible than the cult's assertion that there enemies are demons). All this and more--jesus fucking christ this passage is incredibly suggestive RE the No God and the demise of the No God--begins here in this passage, which, as I said, I feel is directly connected to the Celmomian prophecy and it's motif of Seeing which connects to the Mandate's imperative to not just see the apocalypse but WITNESS the apocalypse and so Witnessing they are mandated to TESTIFY about the apocalypse.
“What happened?” Kellhus asked.
The nameless knight smiled, but there was a strange and subtle incongruence in his expression, something like glimpsing the difference between white eyes and yellow teeth.
“Three days ago,” the man said, “our lord heard rumour of a village some miles to the west, so we rode out, hoping for plunder …”
Kellhus nodded. “And what did you find?”
“Nothing … I mean, no village. Our lord was wroth. He claims the others—”
“What did you find?”
The man blinked. Panic flashed from the stoic weariness of his expression. “A child,” he said hoarsely. “A dead child … We were following this trail, something worn by goatherds, I think, cutting across this hillside, and there was just this dead child, a girl, no more than five or six, lying in our path. Her throat had been cut …”
“What happened next?”
“Nothing … I mean, we simply ignored her, continued riding as though she were nothing more than discarded cloth … a-a scrap of leather in the dust,” he added, his voice breaking. He looked down to his callused palms.
“Guilt and shame wrack you by day,” Kellhus said, “the feeling that you’ve committed some mortal crime. Nightmares wrack you by night … She speaks to you.”
The man’s nod was almost comical in its desperation. He hadn’t, Achamian realized, the nerve for war.
“But why?” he cried. “I mean, how many dead have we seen?”
“But not all seeing,” Kellhus replied, “is witness.”
“I don’t understand …”
“Witness is the seeing that testifies, that judges so that it may be judged. You saw, and you judged. A trespass had been committed, an innocent had been murdered. You saw this.”
“Yes!” the man hissed. “A little girl. A little girl!”
“And now you suffer.”
“But why?” he cried. “Why should I suffer? She’s not mine. She was heathen!”
“Everywhere … Everywhere we’re surrounded by the blessed and the cursed, the sacred and the profane. But our hearts are like hands, they grow callous to the world. And yet, like our hands even the most callous heart will blister if overworked or chafed by something new. For some time we may feel the pinch, but we ignore it because we have so much work to do.” Kellhus had looked down into his right hand. Suddenly he balled it into a fist, raised it high. “And then one strike, with a hammer or a sword, and the blister breaks, our heart is torn. And then we suffer, for we feel the ache for the blessed, the sting of the cursed. We no longer see, we witness …”
His luminous eyes settled upon the nameless knight. Blue and wise.
“This is what has happened to you.”
“Yes … Yes! B-but what should I do?”
“Rejoice.”
“Rejoice? But I suffer!”
“Yes, rejoice! The callused hand cannot feel the lover’s cheek. When we witness, we testify, and when we testify we make ourselves responsible for what we see. And that— that— is what it means to belong.”
Kellhus suddenly stood, leapt from the low platform, took two breathtaking steps into their midst. “Make no mistake,” he continued, and the air thrummed with the resonance of his voice. “This world owns you. You belong, whether you want to or not. Why do we suffer? Why do the wretched take their own lives? Because the world, no matter how cursed, owns us. Because we belong.
“Should we celebrate suffering?” a challenging voice called. From somewhere …
Prince Kellhus smiled, glancing into the darkness. “Then it’s no longer suffering, is it?”
The small congregation laughed.
“No,” Kellhus continued, “that’s not what I mean. Celebrate the meaning of suffering. Rejoice that you belong, not that you suffer. Remember what the Latter Prophet teaches us: glory comes in joy and sorrow. Joy and sorrow …”
“I s-see see the wisdom of you-your words, Prince,” the nameless knight stammered. “I truly see! But …”
And somehow, Achamian could feel his question …
What is there to gain?
“I’m not asking you to see,” Kellhus said. “I’m asking you to witness.”
Blank face. Desolate eyes. The nameless knight blinked, and two tears silvered his cheek. Then he smiled, and nothing, it seemed, could be so glorious.
“To make myself …” His voice quavered, broke. “To m-make …”
“To be one with the world in which you dwell,” Kellhus said. “To make a covenant of your life.”
The world … You will gain the world.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 4395-4412). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
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If and when the forum ever gets fixed - War Room to come after exams, if Forumer wizards haven't accomplished anything - you three will be censored ;).
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dammit. I was hoping a new post in this thread was going to address what others see in connecting the imprompta to the prophecy
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Hm... I'm not for contributions to this thread, sorry, lockesnow. All are welcome to continue in your rampant speculation, I simply stopped in to make light of the spoilers, which I will spoiler in the future ;).
Though, I like the analogy you've drawn between Witness & Seeing and the Compendium & the PON as allegory of witness?
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ahem, and don't forget the Witness of Fane.
But yes, I think Kellhus was sowing the seeds of having Akka write the Compendium in this scene, this is the scene where he begins to turn Akka against him because, iirc, this is after his "there was revelation" moment after leaving Mengedda.
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ahem, and don't forget the Witness of Fane.
Or the "cutting eyes" of the Solitary God, depicted as single-edged swords.
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I can believe some kind of setup with the Compendium, but I can't see how this is directly connected to the prophesy. How does witnessing tie into the dreams?
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Seswatha intends for the Mandate to Witness the First Apocalypse so they can give Testament that will forestall the Second Apocalypse. Pretty straight forward.
But the Mandate ran into a snag, people like DA no longer Witness the First Apocalypse, they only See the First Apocalypse.
It's possible that a Mandate to Testament is written into the sorcery that enables the dreams, note that DA is less physically affected by the dreams when he testifies of his dreams to Esmenet or Kellhus.
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Aspect-Emperor Spoilers
Does the pattern continue? Is Akka testifying by meticulously writing the dreams down? I got the impression that he had gotten used to the dream and wasn't so deeply affected by them in the beginning of JE, but that might not be true. Maybe its this Testifying that ends up changing the dreams. The true dreams revealed only to the true witness.
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God that's brilliant.
And would explain just why and how he became a prophet of the past.
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It was your stream of thought, I just beat you to the punchline.
I always thought that him being a skeptic was very important. Something along the lines of adulation leaving men blind to reality. The truth always obscured by their own will to see it. Hunters in the thicket.
Though this doesn't make that much sense now, considering that one no longer needs to 'believe' in the existence of the Consult. Whether or not they believe, it is part of reality and everyone now knows it.
Still though, it makes a pretty inversion. The non-believer finding the truth before all the righteous.
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I guess this was too studded with spoilers to leave in TDTCB threads. Oops :P.
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Told ya I'd affect change ;).
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I had not noticed this on the other board. Great stuff.
I agree with lockesnow that the changes between the two versions have to be deliberate as they're virtually identical overall.
I am still baffled about the changing dreams and what they mean even short of this theory like Akka's dream at the end of TTT where the No-God is not struck down and the Sauglish dream at the beginning of WLW where the library opens up to the Whirlwind. I don't know what it means, but something is clearly happening.
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Its not so much time dreams themselves but the timing. Thats what Bakker said, but I still don't know what that means.
on a slightly related but mostly tangential point:
I found, also, that the quotes before each chapter have significant meaning about what goes on in the chapter. Like the changing dreams, the quote by itself is not necessarily always important, but when you combine it with what transpires around the quote (the dream), new meanings can be discerned.
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I did have a larger post typed out to this today, but my work browser wouldn't show the anti spam thing so I couldn't post it. Anyone know of a way round this?
Anyway, to my original post, or at least what I can remember from it.
I think it was wilshere who alluded to Nau-Cayatu possibly being the no-god, and that Celmomas was perhaps seeing things inversely while dying (setting sun flaring etc). What if his prophecy is similarly affected? What if the return of the anasurimbor is actually the return of Nau-Cayatu as the No-God? This could mean that the resurrection of Mog is inevitable, which may also have implications for the role of Seswatha and his 'burden/worlds end' fate.
I'm just rambling now, and the post I had earlier was better structured, but I lack the patience to spend the time trying to recreate it word for word. Feel free to completely disassemble my inaugural crackpot theory at will due to complete lack of evidence :)
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Apologies, Mac. The five post minimum was one of the initial holdouts against the Spam Sranc before I found the registration task (which bots, apparently, cannot hack yet) - it actually rendered the post minimum obsolete.
The minimum is done away with now. I think we all dislike experiencing posts lost to the abyss. As an aside, I try and cultivate a habit of copying the content of my posts prior to posting on forums.
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The vision that Celmomas has of the sun, light, twilight, and darkness, is almost like an inversion of reality. The sun is not flaring, the light is fading not rising.
This, combined with how he says 'his son' has seized the sun and is riding through the hearts of all people and his rallying them, fighting for them, this kind of thing. Now, we know that the No-God is felt in the hearts of everyone, but this effect is, again, the opposite.
Perhaps there is some credence to the theory regarding NC = No-God. If you take all Celmomas's descriptions as more or less opposite, then he is basically saying that his son has become the no-sun, is riding against them, and is casing all to feel no-hope.
This is the quote :P
I think it was wilshere who alluded to Nau-Cayatu possibly being the no-god, and that Celmomas was perhaps seeing things inversely while dying (setting sun flaring etc). What if his prophecy is similarly affected? What if the return of the anasurimbor is actually the return of Nau-Cayatu as the No-God? This could mean that the resurrection of Mog is inevitable, which may also have implications for the role of Seswatha and his 'burden/worlds end' fate.
I suppose its possible that NC isn't dead yet, but I find that hard to believe, unless he is being preserved a la Shae's method. It could be that only his soul can be used and that if/when the No-God walks again, it will be NC's soul re-captured.
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or he is being preserved as 'seswatha's heart". Meaning after the NG imploded Seswatha went to the fallen carapace and wrenched the heart from the body inside. Then he used its connection to all souls (it was cutting them all off right?) in combination with his own sorcery to make NC and himself eternal, haunting the dreams of his followers for all time.
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How poetic :), to save himself within the NG under the guise of being the worlds last hope.
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How poetic :), to save himself within the NG under the guise of being the worlds last hope.
And possibly allowing the NG to be resurrected, as in, if he hadn't done it, the NG would be done for good, but alas, my precious, my own, my son, Nau Cayuti, he couldn't do it.
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Thats what i was getting at
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I really like the whole idea of the heart being Nau-Cayuti's and then Seswatha imprinting his own homunculus onto it. It fits very well with the otherwise-quite-difficult-to-reconcile dreams.
I'm definitely a believer in the idea that Seswatha is, essentially, still alive, having made himself immortal through the heart and the dreams, knowing that he must live on (as Shae did) in order to defeat the Consult at a future point. I think the reason for the timeliness of Akka's dreams is because Seswatha knows that he is the one most "well-placed" to do what must be done -- whatever that is -- and thus is intentionally sending the right dreams in the right sequence.
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Yeah I think it would make sense that Shae and Seswatha are still waging their own war through the millennium. More of a proxy war. The Mangecca where exiled by the Sohonc, which they destroyed with the NG, which seswatha (last scion) resurrected via the Mandate, which is now trying to destroy the consult. Mandate are controlled by Seswatha (Sohonc), Consult controlled by Shae (Mangecca).
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What if we are supposed to replace Seswatha with Achamian. Akka sees himself in the dreams, perhaps the King is actually speaking to him and not Seswatha. It could be, then, that the fate of the world rests in Achamian's hands rather than Seswatha's. Specifically Akka and not all the others that dream the dreams would be for the same reason Akka sees unique dreams. Which is kind of a non-answer, but its the best I got.
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One thing that I think is important, but hasn't really been discussed (that I've seen) is the fact that Celmomas doesn't seem to know that Seswatha went with Nau into Golgotterath. Now, you could chalk this up to the idea that King Cel is just losing it as he dies, but I doubt it. We're specifically being deprived of information about that event (the journey into Golgotterath), and I personally think there's way more to it. We know Nau got pissed with Ses about being brought there, and the implication I got was that it was under false pretenses. I absolutely believe that Seswatha is playing a "bigger game" than everyone realizes. He wanted to get into Golgotterath for a very specific reason, and I don't think it was to save the chick Nau loved. He wanted something else.
I personally think Ses saw the Inverse Fire, and realized he was damned for being a sorcerer. Even so, he hated the Consult enough that he would never join them. He had a "better plan", at least in his own eyes.
Ultimately though, I think the important question is, why Nau-Cayuti? Why did Seswatha lead him into Golgotterath? Why would the Consult prize him so much as to use him for the basis of the No-God?
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I was thinking of the prophecy from the Consult's perspective. There is nothing in it about actually preventing the apocalypse. Just that his seed will return at the end of the world as harbinger (not saviour) and Seswatha will be there too. Quite heartening for the bad guys really.
FB, they were supposedly there for the heron spear. Speaking of which, never mind the grafting tech of the tekne for now, what could Kellhus do if he got the chance to reverse engineer the Inchie weapons of light?
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One thing that I think is important, but hasn't really been discussed (that I've seen) is the fact that Celmomas doesn't seem to know that Seswatha went with Nau into Golgotterath. Now, you could chalk this up to the idea that King Cel is just losing it as he dies, but I doubt it. We're specifically being deprived of information about that event (the journey into Golgotterath), and I personally think there's way more to it. We know Nau got pissed with Ses about being brought there, and the implication I got was that it was under false pretenses. I absolutely believe that Seswatha is playing a "bigger game" than everyone realizes. He wanted to get into Golgotterath for a very specific reason, and I don't think it was to save the chick Nau loved. He wanted something else.
I personally think Ses saw the Inverse Fire, and realized he was damned for being a sorcerer. Even so, he hated the Consult enough that he would never join them. He had a "better plan", at least in his own eyes.
Ultimately though, I think the important question is, why Nau-Cayuti? Why did Seswatha lead him into Golgotterath? Why would the Consult prize him so much as to use him for the basis of the No-God?
I don't disagree with your overarching theme, FB - but obviously having the Heron Spear was a wise choice and most of the interactions from the Dreams involve having the Spear, not having it, where is it, etc.
As for the bold, Nau-Cayuti was part of the generation that grew up with the Apocalypse and is the first greatest hero in that generation. Even after he dies, it's his mead buddies who manage to be able to defeat the Consult - not any other randoms. He's important because he's a threat, apparently. And he might know the location of the Heron Spear (I've never been on board the Nau-Cayuti-Golden Room-Making the No-God train that took off from Westeros).
Speaking of which, never mind the grafting tech of the tekne for now, what could Kellhus do if he got the chance to reverse engineer the Inchie weapons of light?
Maybe he'll go full inspector gadget ;).
Or Tanks and Helicopters were always good thoughts. Though, I like my Synthese/v. Iron Man idea.
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Derp, forgot about the Heron Spear. Regardless I still think some very important and unexpected shit went down the during that event beyond stealing the spear (namely Seswatha seeing the IF).
Here's a question - what if Achamian has a dream of Seswatha looking into the IF? Does it have the same affect "second-hand", so to speak?
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Here's a question - what if Achamian has a dream of Seswatha looking into the IF? Does it have the same affect "second-hand", so to speak?
I don't think so. But I could see this as being the cypher of Seswatha's life. Only the Mandati whose life most resembles Seswatha's (Achamian PON as discoverer of Anasurimbor) gets access to "other" Dreams. I think seeing the IF through the dreamlike gauze of the Grasping's Dreams would make it much easier to doubt the IF.
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I don't think so. But I could see this as being the cypher of Seswatha's life. Only the Mandati whose life most resembles Seswatha's (Achamian PON as discoverer of Anasurimbor) gets access to "other" Dreams
So you're saying that Achamian is Virimsata? (or would it be Seswatha is the virimsata that replaces Achamian.
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You'll have to explain your connotations some more, lockesnow - I'm not sure we have the same understanding of viramsata?
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Seswatha has made a games of truth. He tells lies about who said what to whom, about who makes love to whomever, and so on. He does this every night. And what is more Seswatha is at pains to act out the lies told by himself every night, especially when they are traumatic, so they might make them true. and so it goes from Seswatha to Mandati to Seswatha until no distinction remains between what is a lie and what is true. In the end his lies become viramsata, his soul is a living things and the mandate were his battle plain, the ground his breath stood upon.
a lie that has conquered and reproduced over the centuries. A great thoughtless beast that takes the souls of Men as its ground.
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If I'm to stretch, I can see Achamian as being described in such a manner by extension.
To what end?
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I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah. He's a lie made flesh (which is how he himself describes the Umiaki event). Because of the nature of Earwa's metaphysics, these things become true when so many people genuinely believe it to be so. He's a phony until he isn't. That's why he seems "insane" to someone like Moenghus -- in reality though, Kellhus just realized that the lie he was telling had become real.
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Virimsata at its root is a useful metaphor for culture. The Nilnameshi are simply acting out their culture explicitly, albeit semi-consciously, where the rest of the world does so blindly. This is the lesson of Viramsata. It's the To Be/To Act metaphor of the PON writ large across Fanimry and Inrithism.
But as I said, I think locke can use it in the method employed but I also think FB's metaphoric descriptions is kosher. The whole lie made flesh moment at the Umiaki though, always seemed to me about Kellhus communicating to Cnaiur about Sarcellus, who was a major player in fucking with Kellhus at Caraskand, obviously, as the Consult would deal with threats.
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I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah. He's a lie made flesh (which is how he himself describes the Umiaki event). Because of the nature of Earwa's metaphysics, these things become true when so many people genuinely believe it to be so. He's a phony until he isn't. That's why he seems "insane" to someone like Moenghus -- in reality though, Kellhus just realized that the lie he was telling had become real.
Agree with this perspective. There isn't much useless world building, and this ties it quite nicely into the main plot. Yeah it is a general metaphor for culture IRL but its got to have some meaning for TSA for it to be included in the book, and I think this is it.
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Culture in the books is supposed to be an expression of culture in real life, I think?
I don't actually disagree with FB, necessarily.
Need moar DATA!
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Virimsata at its root is a useful metaphor for culture.
*Nods* Bakker's description of Viramsata is (IIRC) almost word-for-word Dawkins' description of memes.
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Virimsata at its root is a useful metaphor for culture.
*Nods* Bakker's description of Viramsata is (IIRC) almost word-for-word Dawkins' description of memes.
That is a brilliant point.
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Virimsata at its root is a useful metaphor for culture.
*Nods* Bakker's description of Viramsata is (IIRC) almost word-for-word Dawkins' description of memes.
Thanks kindly, Duskweaver.
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@ Francis Buck - "Why would the Consult prize him so much as to use him for the basis of the No-God?" I'm sure someone has said this, but I bet it's because Nau-Cayuti is the avatar of the world soul? That part in WLW when the mandati is telling Sorweel about Kellhus and saying that Kellhus is the shape of the whole--I bet that's what makes NC special.
"I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah." -- I love this sooo much!!! Also the way to become a self-moving soul?
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"I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah." -- I love this sooo much!!! Also the way to become a self-moving soul?
I think there is definitely a part of Earwa that allows subjectivity to alter objective truths.
As for becoming a self-moving soul, I'd say yes but in a way almost the opposite of how the Dunyain are trying to achieve it. They want to become self-moving through training, reason, and understanding. Simply believing in yourself hard enough to make it come true seems like anathema to the entire Dunyain philosophy.
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"I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah." -- I love this sooo much!!! Also the way to become a self-moving soul?
I think there is definitely a part of Earwa that allows subjectivity to alter objective truths.
As for becoming a self-moving soul, I'd say yes but in a way almost the opposite of how the Dunyain are trying to achieve it. They want to become self-moving through training, reason, and understanding. Simply believing in yourself hard enough to make it come true seems like anathema to the entire Dunyain philosophy.
DO NOT cut Mimara off on the highway.
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What if the Dunyain figured out how to rework skin spies not long after the Consult made them and crafted an extra special one that had working reproductive organs, the gift of the few, and named it Kellhus?
It's programmed to be ignorant of its own skinspy status, to produce only human kids (but extra special), and is so well crafted, only a dunyain could tell it was a skin spy?
If the Celmomian prophecy ends up being a false prophecy, then the Dunyain found the way around it by just making their own Anasurimbor.
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What if the Dunyain figured out how to rework skin spies not long after the Consult made them and crafted an extra special one that had working reproductive organs, the gift of the few, and named it Kellhus?
It's programmed to be ignorant of its own skinspy status, to produce only human kids (but extra special), and is so well crafted, only a dunyain could tell it was a skin spy?
If the Celmomian prophecy ends up being a false prophecy, then the Dunyain found the way around it by just making their own Anasurimbor.
Duncan Idaho?
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What if the Dunyain figured out how to rework skin spies not long after the Consult made them and crafted an extra special one that had working reproductive organs, the gift of the few, and named it Kellhus?
It's programmed to be ignorant of its own skinspy status, to produce only human kids (but extra special), and is so well crafted, only a dunyain could tell it was a skin spy?
If the Celmomian prophecy ends up being a false prophecy, then the Dunyain found the way around it by just making their own Anasurimbor.
Duncan Idaho?
Duncan Idaho! :D
But we already know the end of the world is nigh, so the prophesy turned out to be true (regarding an Anasurimbor being the Harbinger) regardless of which Anasurimbor it pointed to. That house's role in the prophecy has been fulfilled.
All that remains is the death of Seswatha. The claim is that the world ends with Seswatha's death, which is far more important than the Anasurimbor's role, imo.
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What if the Dunyain figured out how to rework skin spies not long after the Consult made them and crafted an extra special one that had working reproductive organs, the gift of the few, and named it Kellhus?
It's programmed to be ignorant of its own skinspy status, to produce only human kids (but extra special), and is so well crafted, only a dunyain could tell it was a skin spy?
If the Celmomian prophecy ends up being a false prophecy, then the Dunyain found the way around it by just making their own Anasurimbor.
Duncan Idaho?
lol, why not! :)
twist: Earwa was not the planet the Inchoroi were looking for--they wanted Arrakis!
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The claim is that the world ends with Seswatha's death.
Debatable. Seswatha is already dead and the first apocalypse is over.
I think that part was Celmomas telling Seswatha that he was the last hope of stopping the No-god. He doesn't get his 'message from the future' until after that.
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Debatable.
Oh good, I love debates.
If Seswatha is dead, then the Anasurimbor's never left Earwa, and the whole prophecy is nonsense. The Dunyain, and thus the Anasurimbor's, survived in the north, but were removed from the scene, allowing for a "return" even though they never left. I think this shows enough ambiguity to say that while Seswatha's body may have perished, he remains alive in the minds/souls of the Mandate and Swayali.
If an Anasurimbor can return from where he never left, Seswatha can be alive even though he is dead.
We know that the first half of the prophecy is true. The World, which I take to mean humanity, is in peril. They are all at risk of being obliterated thanks to Kellhus and the Inchoroi. The Great Ordeal would never have happened without Moenghus and Kellhus, so one of them was indeed the Harbinger.
Again, because the first half of the prophecy is shown to be true, so too should we consider the second half to be true. If all those connected to Seswatha die, the world will end. Without any Gnostic school(wo)men, there is nothing to oppose the Consult, the world is lost.
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There are two parts to the prophecy, with different sources.
Read transcript of the prophecy from the OP again and see what you think.
You will see Celmomas is saying the gods are telling him Seswatha's fate is bound to averting the Apocalypse. Imo the gods can see Seswatha's role because he survives in the branching of history where the consult fails and the cycle of souls is resumed. If Seswatha dies before then, so does the world.
This is separate from his next statement (the actual prophetic part) where Celmomas sees and hears his descendant - who he assumes is NC.
No need for hazy definitions of death, Seswatha does survive the first apocalypse and is vital to the defeat of the consult - without him the world certainly would have ended. So first prophecy is fulfilled.
It's more like a precondition for the second prophecy imo.
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I guess thats a good point, Seswatha had to survive in order for there to be time for his descendant to return.
"He says . . . says such sweet things to give me comfort. He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha—an Anasûrimbor will return . . .” A shudder wracked the old man, forcing breath and spittle through his teeth. “At the end of the world.”"
All this states is that an Anasurimbor will be around when the world ends. It doesn't even say that he is the harbinger, but that one will be around when the world dies. So really, to save the world, the Anasurimbor family must be destroyed, else the King's prophesy might come true :P. No Anasurimbor = no end of the world.
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Lol, Curthane and Wilshire, you both got me thinking--the prophecy claims that the burden of apocalypse is Seswatha's and that's it. Does he bear the burden, dead or alive??? I have no idea what it would mean for a dead Seswatha to bear the burden of apocalypse, but the Outside could be full of surprises!