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Messages - Camel

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Salvation and damnation in Earwa
« on: December 26, 2013, 05:47:42 pm »
Prophets and/or Shaman must have the ability to create.
Is it a must have ability? Imo a connection to god(gods) must be a sign of the true prophet, like something Sorweel has.

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Absolutely. I'd love if Achamian just dragged Mimara to the armies of the Great Ordeal and demanded that she declare Kellhus false... and then Mimara can lie and declare him true ;). Imagination's running wild.
It would be fitting for Mimara's character lol.

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Mark is proportionate to skill, friend. Kellhus in TTT still needed Achamian to protect him. Twenty years later. Kellhus either looks Quya, Titirga, or something different... certainly not a normal human sorcerer.
I think Titirga's Mark was different not because of his magic potential. Then Nil'giccas as probably the strongest sorcerer in history should have the same mark, but it was the identical to others even it was very deep. Kellhus also learned Daimos with the Scarlet Spires, and that is the shortest path to hell. Cyphrang was shouting to Iyokus that his soul now belongs to them.


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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Salvation and damnation in Earwa
« on: December 26, 2013, 03:27:54 pm »
After all, the Inchoroi seem to believe that absolutely everybody is damned.

Huh, do you have a quote?

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Salvation and damnation in Earwa
« on: December 26, 2013, 03:19:07 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Camel.

Thank you! I was lurking here for some time and finally decided to join a discussion.

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Mimara may or may not see the 'objective morality' that Bakker is referring to.
I think we can safely assume that she sees the 'objective morality' - Gallian was shocked and didn't dispute anything when Mimara mentioned a "crimson butterfly", she also saw that Akka is damned and we know from Shauriatas that sorcerers indeed are doomed to go to hell, she also somehow killed the shade of Gin'yursis.

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We don't know that Kellhus is a False Prophet; I think we impose that upon the narrative because Kellhus doesn't seem to exhibit what are, ultimately, probably culturally projected (possibly global-culture) "prophet-like qualities" (though I am inclined to believe Mimara's has access to a (possibly) most omniscient perspective of the narrative world, so far, but we just don't know, again, the validity of her perspective). We also haven't seen Kellhus through the eyes of the Few in TAE series yet... perhaps, Kellhus has a mark like the Cishaurim or Titirga, whom may or may not be Damned as other sorcerers seem to be (Titirga from The False Sun short story on Bakker blog - apparently, major spoilers for The Unholy Consult because it offers a pre-apocalypse Consult perspective, which is also probably imminent in TUC).
Yeah, Bakker didn't show Kellhus under the Judging Eye yet. Sometimes silence speaks more than words, as I think it is in this case. Although we saw Kellhus' Mark in the first trilogy and it was normal one, not something that Titirga had.

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Bakker has said that innocence is key to redemption in Earwa (suffering has also been mentioned, I think).
I see.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Salvation and damnation in Earwa
« on: December 25, 2013, 05:48:58 pm »
So, as we know from both books and interviews of RSB his universe has objective morality. Mimara can even see morality of things and people. And RSB said that whole religions can be false and entire nations will be damned because of that in Earwa. Now the thing that bothers me is what nations are unlucky to literally go to hell because they chose wrong religion and prophet. Inrithism? Fanim? Zaudunyani? Oh and mages and nonmen are damned anyway.

I guess it's safe to say the Zaudunyani are damned because they follow the wrong prophet, Mimara even notes that circumfix is a false symbol. So who else? We don't see Kellhus under the Judging Eye but I assume he's damned thanks to his Mark and numerous sins. On the other hand, Mimara saw a literal halo above her head. Then suffering can bring salvation? 

P.S. Please keep the discussion of real religions out of this thread.


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