Humanism and Transhumanism

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sciborg2

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« on: August 02, 2014, 08:19:36 am »
Humanism and Transhumanism

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Liberty and Limitation

Contemporary libertarians, viewing society as composed of transactions between autonomous actors, seem to expect that these transformational choices will be individual in nature. But as has been cogently argued by a number of critics, individual choice will probably not be decisive. Once the enhanced set the standards, it will pretty much be impossible for the unenhanced not to have to try to keep up, if only because their life chances, and ultimately even their continuing recognition as members of society, will be at stake. So rather than choices made by independent rational actors, the decisions about radical enhancement are more likely to be either collective or to be imposed from above by an elite, as predicted by Aldous Huxley and C.S. Lewis, among others. Or it may be that the choice will not be made intentionally at all, but simply imposed by realized technological possibility — a progression hinted at by the spread of steroid use among athletes today.

The attachment of some libertarians to transhumanism is deeply misguided, for at least two reasons. First, the phenomenon that Richard J. Herrnstein got so much grief for pointing out in his 1973 book I.Q. in the Meritocracy — namely, that true egalitarianism and meritocracy tend to produce, through the marriage of the smart with the smart, a genetic aristocracy, almost a genetic caste — would likely deepen dramatically in the future the transhumanists desire, with consequences for the liberty of the unenhanced. At some point, those who celebrate the liberty of human beings will have to face the fact that liberty will look very different when we are no longer merely human. Second, our enhanced offspring might have to confront novel existential threats, such as the problem of an artificial intelligence bent on the destruction of humanity, or of self-replicating nanobots run amuck — guarding against which would likely require the governance of some massively powerful and intrusive entity like the World Controller in Huxley’s Brave New World. The rule of bureaucrats and experts, which has already started small in Europe and which elites seem to be pushing for throughout the West, would probably evolve apace with the rapidly expanding new science into the rule of experts at all levels.

Still, however one reacts to the transhumanist project — and it is probably only a technical question as to how far it can go and how fast — it means that the most powerful weapon in the traditional anti-utopian arsenal may no longer have much power. Every utopia that came before was a “no-place” (the literal meaning of the word “utopia”) because it abstracted to some degree from human nature as it had always been, and so the perfect world it imagined could not exist. Thus, utopias could be divided, as Leo Strauss has suggested, into two kinds. There were the philosophical and theological utopias, those which knowingly described an impossible world but nevertheless used the narrative to focus on certain aspects of humanity in order to clarify goals and to offer moral encouragement to improve. And then there were the ones like Skinner’s, modern utopias of social engineering that naïvely bought into the possibility of radically changing human life by simply ignoring crucial aspects of it as it exists now. Both of these kinds of utopias could be reliably predicted to fail (were they to be tried in practice) because they were contrary to human nature.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 08:33:03 am by sciborg2 »

Kellais

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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 10:58:10 am »
A very scary thing, this transhumanism. Especially if you mean the part where we "enhance" ourselves with technology (aka implants and A.I. stuff, maybe even "transcending" our bodies for a kind of immortality... artificial bodies and stuff). The stuff with the A.I. who destroys humanity etc. or a need for a World Controller...scary stuff as well.
I hope that if we do get to the "let us enhance our species" we will go a non intrusive (as in implanting stuff and giving controll over to elektronical entities etc ) way. Not sure if gene-manipulation is such a good (and save) idea...it's probably not...but i still prefer that to making ourselves into kind of robots...ugh.
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SilentRoamer

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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2014, 05:07:13 pm »
Strangely enough I see the best social analysis on this sort of technological development coming from the more modern SF writers.

The idea of "trans" or "post" humans with bionic augmentation, nano-technology and the like all integrating directly into thought seems to be a current trend.


The Sharmat

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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 06:09:39 am »
A very scary thing, this transhumanism. Especially if you mean the part where we "enhance" ourselves with technology (aka implants and A.I. stuff, maybe even "transcending" our bodies for a kind of immortality... artificial bodies and stuff). The stuff with the A.I. who destroys humanity etc. or a need for a World Controller...scary stuff as well.
I hope that if we do get to the "let us enhance our species" we will go a non intrusive (as in implanting stuff and giving controll over to elektronical entities etc ) way. Not sure if gene-manipulation is such a good (and save) idea...it's probably not...but i still prefer that to making ourselves into kind of robots...ugh.
I'm a biologist and a fervent transhumanist, and pardon me for saying this, but all that I can perceive here is an emotional grunt. No real reason behind these thoughts, aside from the implication that gene-manipulation is possibly unsafe, which is an argument born entirely from uncertainty rather than knowledge.

I would point out that a lack of genetic manipulation is ultimately unsafe, as genetic transcription and replication machinery are ultimately imperfect and eventually their flaws accumulate sufficiently to kill you. With some very unlucky people with a number of oncogenes, this happens quite early in life. But it happens to everyone that doesn't die violently eventually.

There is a further danger that people in general rarely seem more than dimly aware of, as well. More and more strains of bacteria are becoming antibiotic resistant or immune. Some of them are immune to multiple varieties of antibiotics from entirely different families. As time passes, natural (or unnatural) selection will continue to increase the number of these strains. Concurrently, generations of weaker selection pressure on humans means more and more of us are born with deficient immune systems.We are losing an evolutionary race. And quickly. If technology doesn't change within a few centuries we'll soon find ourselves at a level of vulnerability to microbial attack similar to that of the middle ages, our only defenses being boiling and soap and bleach.

Genetic engineering offers the only possible solution to this problem, as it allows us new modes of attack like using custom designed bacteriophages against bacterial pathogens instead of conventional antibiotics.

In any case, genetic engineering and GM products are already ubiquitous, to no observed deleterious affect (outside some very dubious studies). Even if you're only shopping at whole foods stores, unless you're very vigilant, you're still ingesting genetically modified food somewhere. And you're certainly using GM products in other ways. Do you use dishwashing liquid? Then you're also using recombinant proteases grown in a lab derived from extremophile archaea that are resistant to the highly alkaline and often high temperature environment they operate in.

If you weren't speaking of genetic engineering in general but genetic enhancement of humans instead, then I apologize for the rant. Of course any new medical treatment is potentially dangerous. This is why we must do extensive testing before putting it into common use. But humans altering their bodies is not fundamentally different from anything we already do to alter our environment, and have more or less since we first began to think.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 06:11:57 am by The Sharmat »

Kellais

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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 04:38:08 pm »
It seems you didn't really read my post, so i guess i do not need to feel offended by the emotional grunt comment (don't get me started on the "no real reason behind these thoughts" comment... perfect way to offend people, dude).

On the other hand, i find the lack of reflection in someone who is a biologist even more scary. You guys play around with stuff you have no idea about and call it necessary. Have you ever thought about that it is ok that we degenerate and die out? Ok, i admit, i do not find that thought particularly pleasing myself, but humans playing god even less so.
And with the uncountable ways that something like "playing around" with bakteria and viruses can go wrong, i don't think it is in any way safer to do genetic manipulation than not to do it. It's a simple case of "mathematics", in this case probability, that there will be huge fuck-ups if we start manipulating the basic modules of life.

So yeah, i really don't think i'm an emotional grunt.

And yes, i was indeed speaking (even if only very shortly) of genetic enhancements of humans...as it relates to the thread title. I even said that i'd prefer that to invasive technological enhancements (but still find it to not be a good idea).

Oh and as a last point - So i am speaking out of an uncertainty rather than knowledge? Yeah, as if you guys have any idea what you are doing. The gene code has only been decoded for some lifeforms and only for a short time, in science-terms and the scientists are not even close to truly understand everything they decoded...and let us not even talk about understanding the correlations between the single dna strings and how an alteration of one would impact another or the organism as a whole etc etc .
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 07:23:11 pm »
It seems you didn't really read my post, so i guess i do not need to feel offended by the emotional grunt comment (don't get me started on the "no real reason behind these thoughts" comment... perfect way to offend people, dude).
It was a very rude way to ask you to explain your statements further and I apologize.

On the other hand, i find the lack of reflection in someone who is a biologist even more scary. You guys play around with stuff you have no idea about and call it necessary.
Here you are speaking from ignorance though. We actually understand quite a lot. You underestimate the body of knowledge that has been assembled, and continues to be assembled, in the field.

Have you ever thought about that it is ok that we degenerate and die out?
Literally never, and I see no compelling reason to think so. The desire to die is most often the result of mental illness. No rational human desires this except at the utmost extremes of desperation, when all hope is gone and every moment is futile agony.

Ok, i admit, i do not find that thought particularly pleasing myself, but humans playing god even less so.
I can martial no rational arguments either for or against the concept of "playing God" because that is an arbitrary and subjective moral absolute.

I will however quote Isaac Newton (somewhat disingenuously admittedly, since I'm an atheist.) "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."

And with the uncountable ways that something like "playing around" with bakteria and viruses can go wrong, i don't think it is in any way safer to do genetic manipulation than not to do it. It's a simple case of "mathematics", in this case probability, that there will be huge fuck-ups if we start manipulating the basic modules of life.
We've been doing it on a wide scale since the 80's and so far so good. It's improved countless lives.

You say it's basic math. Tell me, do you have any idea whatsoever what the variables involved are? Much less the true values of those variables?

I don't. I'm not sure it can actually even be quantified in that fashion. But I don't feel arrogant in saying that I believe I have a better estimation of them than you thanks to my education and experience, and I do not believe that the risks of proceeding outweigh the risks of not doing so. An event like the Swine Flu pandemic of the early 20th century occurring again is only a matter of time. In the modern world, with travel far more widespread and swift, it would be even worse. We're talking the kind of catastrophe that destroys civilizations here, and advances in biotech are the only thing that can stop it-besides retreating entirely into luddism and dismantling the entire global economy, travel, trade, and communications networks.

And really, we're not playing around. It takes years of study and trial before a new product comes to light. We're very thorough and very careful.

Oh and as a last point - So i am speaking out of an uncertainty rather than knowledge? Yeah, as if you guys have any idea what you are doing. The gene code has only been decoded for some lifeforms and only for a short time, in science-terms and the scientists are not even close to truly understand everything they decoded...and let us not even talk about understanding the correlations between the single dna strings and how an alteration of one would impact another or the organism as a whole etc etc .
And again you speak from ignorance as revealed by the completely factually inaccurate content of this statement. The genetic code of all discovered organisms on Earth is a known quantity. It varies only in some very obscure sea-bottom microbes, and there, only by a very tiny amount.

I believe you may be referring to genome sequencing. In which case it may interest you to know that the number of sequenced eukaryotic organisms is in the hundreds and growing by the month. Technology is rapidly approaching the point where you can go from a raw dirt sample to sequenced genome in  a matter of a couple of weeks. In fact the nature of the process is such that the more genomes we sequence, the faster we can sequence more genomes.

We also have a goodly number of basic biochemical pathways completely mapped, a serious undertaking.

Teasing out the relationships is just a matter of experimentation and data mining. Our only obstacle then is time, and most governments are quite vigilant that things like gene therapy treatments aren't rushed out  the door. Hell, the average time it takes to get a new treatment from start up to FDA approval is something like fifteen years.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 07:58:56 pm by The Sharmat »

Royce

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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 08:34:19 am »
I used to be very skeptical about all of this, but that kind of changed when I read about Norman Borlaug. I am not sure that he is as well known as he rightfully should be. I think he has saved more people from starvation than anyone else ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

I have heard arguments people make that genetically modified foods is "poison" etc and that it is a crime to give that to starving people around the world. That kind of pisses me off a bit, mainly because if you are starving to death you need food right NOW. I do not think they have time to debate whether it is poison or not. To have that debate is a first world problem. If we can produce foods way quicker with genetic modifying, it`s a no-brainer(IMO).

If you ask someone who is starving if he wants genetically modified foods quick, or if he would rather wait longer for the foods to grow naturally/ecologically, I think that person would punch you in the face for asking such a silly question.

Just my 2 cents on genetically modified foods.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 09:35:08 am »
There is no real evidence that genetically modified foods are, by their nature, somehow harmful for humans to consume, outside of a very few fringe, poorly executed and dubious studies that almost no one in the scientific community puts any weight behind.

Kellais

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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 05:38:19 pm »
@ The sharmat - First of all, i appreciate your apology. Now onto the topic at hand...
I have indeed a very good basic knowledge of mathematics ;) And i can tell you that the science of counting and probability is not on your side. I am sure you have a better knowledge of biology as i do (i hope so, you studied it after all) but do you work in the actual field of genetics and the manipulation of genes etc.?
I admit i haven't updated myself in a longer time, but last i checked scientists working in the field admited that they more or less know nothing about the details. They have just decoded the genom but have no real idea how it works in detail or what would happen if they modified this or that. With that in mind i really hope they do not try it.

As a sidenote (and i know it's a bit offtopic) - how do we know that some harsher viral stuff (like for example swine or bird flu and the pandemics that loom on the horizon) is indeed not of our own making?! I mean it kind of already is our own fault that those viruses and bacterias ever get more resistant to our medications as we feed our animals with antibiotics or that a lot of people just take antibiotics willy nilly when it wouldn't even be necessary. On top of it, i am still holding to the opinion that this work you're praising so high can as well be our end as it can be our salvation. Most of the time, what happens in science is that the military will use developments first. So gene manipulated super-viruses on the loose are a real posibility (as i am sure all bigger western nations have their very own labs where they manipulate viruses and bacteria).

Oh and please understand that i am not a particularly religious person...so my "playing god" is just an expression. What i meant is that i don't think we humans have the clearheadedness and oversight necessary to play with the basics of life...if we screw up there, its aftermath will be beyond anything that anyone can imagine.

As a last remark, the ever so often used "there is no real evidence..." line is not the same as "there is no evidence". These manipulated foods are way too young to have big enough data about it and so we can not say if it is safe or not. That goes for both ways. So to say it is safe for humans is just as wrong.
But as food is broken up into basic pieces during digestion and then built into our own dna, i am really not comfortable with the knowledge that now i will just have to accept that there will be artificially produced and/or manipulated material built into my own data. And that without proof that this has no side-effects. I think humankind should have waited with this until we could have shown that this is safe.
On top of it, in the foodindustry, this is not used to make better food or food for the hungry in the world, no, it's used to be able to patent natural resources because now they are produced by your firm. And i get sick to the stomach everytime i think about it. In the not so far future you'll have to ask Nestle or other big players if you are allowed to plant corn or potatoes and stuff....this is the peak of hubris.

Edit: Btw, the die out comment was not meant as a question to the effect of one person and if this person wants to live or not. I meant it in a greater perspective. I for one think the human race is doomed to die out sooner or later. And we will have no one to blame than ourselves. And to be honest, if it is natural selection, i am fine with it too. That does not mean that i am not cherishing life to the fullest! And i think it is totally normal that almost everyone does and wants to do it as long as possible. Just to clear this up.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 05:47:34 pm by Kellais »
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2014, 06:59:06 pm »
@ The sharmat - First of all, i appreciate your apology. Now onto the topic at hand...
I have indeed a very good basic knowledge of mathematics ;) And i can tell you that the science of counting and probability is not on your side. I am sure you have a better knowledge of biology as i do (i hope so, you studied it after all) but do you work in the actual field of genetics and the manipulation of genes etc.?
I'm still technically a student, but advanced enough in my education that I've actually personally performed transformation of bacterial cells, transfection of mammalian cells, culturing of both bacterial and eukaryotic cell cultures in vitro, DNA sampling and sequencing, etc. So I think I know a bit about the field of genetics, having performed actual genetic engineering myself a number of times.

Your abilities as a mathematician are irrelevant if you don't have the data points to use it.

Though if the process of FDA approval and human trials aren't enough for you, I'd think nearly every living person in the US eating GM foods with every meal for 20 years would be sufficient evidence that nothing significant is amiss with it. How much testing do you actually need before you're satisfied? If all technology moved at the pace you seem to be demanding then products would go a century between conception and arriving to market.

In any case, you tell me probability isn't on my side. Show me the numbers. I'm curious how you've even begun to calculate such a conclusion.

I admit i haven't updated myself in a longer time, but last i checked scientists working in the field admited that they more or less know nothing about the details. They have just decoded the genom but have no real idea how it works in detail or what would happen if they modified this or that. With that in mind i really hope they do not try it.
We know exactly how gene transcription, translation, and replication works, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. As to what can happen to every single biochemical pathway in a cell if you modify "this or that", no, we don't instantly know for sure ahead of time. That's why this stuff is tested.

As a sidenote (and i know it's a bit offtopic) - how do we know that some harsher viral stuff (like for example swine or bird flu and the pandemics that loom on the horizon) is indeed not of our own making?! I mean it kind of already is our own fault that those viruses and bacterias ever get more resistant to our medications as we feed our animals with antibiotics or that a lot of people just take antibiotics willy nilly when it wouldn't even be necessary. On top of it, i am still holding to the opinion that this work you're praising so high can as well be our end as it can be our salvation. Most of the time, what happens in science is that the military will use developments first. So gene manipulated super-viruses on the loose are a real posibility (as i am sure all bigger western nations have their very own labs where they manipulate viruses and bacteria).
Firstly there's a difference between viruses and bacteria which I'm not sure you quite grasp. The increased antibiotics resistance in bacteria is indeed partially our fault from overuse of them for frivolous purposes, but it was going to happen eventually anyway, assuming evolution by natural selection is a thing that actually happens. (And it is, trust me.) That problem has nothing to do with viruses. Antibiotics do not affect viruses.

Swine flu and birdflu pandemics are not of our making because they are the result of one strain of influenza that can infect humans and the the reservoir species (pigs and birds) picking up new antigens from infecting a pig or bird that is simultaneously infected with another virus such that their genomes are combined via an accident of genetics. The resulting antigenic shift means that the new virus looks totally different to the human immune system, and therefore the immune system no longer has an acquired resistance to it as it did the old strain. This can be verified with genome sequencing such that we know very much where said viruses came from and what two virus coinfections were involved.

Since this is an entirely natural process and a possibility every time a viral co-infection occurs, it is absolutely, as you would say, just a matter of counting and probability. Given enough time this will happen again to disastrous consequences.

Also I'd point out that genetic engineering did not exist as a science at the time of the global swine flu pandemic of 1918.

In any case the use of viruses as vectors is heavily regulated if those viruses are infectious to humans, and in any case it's pretty rare to make a viral vector replication competent. Most viral vectors are sterile, intentionally so. So this is kind of like worrying that vaccination will cause a horrible viral plague if something went wrong. We have to manufacture virus particles for those too. And we actually inject those in people. Where as the viruses we handle in labs are frozen or sterilized. Not that people ever use influenza as a vector for genetic engineering. It's not the right kind of virus to do anything with.

As for germ warfare: You'd have to be absolutely insane to want to use that as a weapon. There's no way to target it specifically at the enemy. Any good, nasty, weaponized smallpox strain used in an enemy country would probably come right back to the country that used it in a matter of days or weeks. The lack of specificity means that viruses and bacteria are really of little utility from a military standpoint.

Oh and please understand that i am not a particularly religious person...so my "playing god" is just an expression. What i meant is that i don't think we humans have the clearheadedness and oversight necessary to play with the basics of life...if we screw up there, its aftermath will be beyond anything that anyone can imagine.
We've been doing it for ages. We just have better tools now. Humans have selectively breed things for millenia. The only difference here is that our new techniques are faster and more precise.

As a last remark, the ever so often used "there is no real evidence..." line is not the same as "there is no evidence". These manipulated foods are way too young to have big enough data about it and so we can not say if it is safe or not. That goes for both ways. So to say it is safe for humans is just as wrong.
No it's not the same as saying "there is no evidence". It's the same as saying "there is fake evidence". Plenty of studies that have tried to demonstrate that GM foods somehow magically cause cancer and have fallen apart in the face of peer review and statistical analysis.

What is enough data for you? What would ever be enough data, given what's already been gathered? Hundreds of millions of people eat this stuff every day and have been for years. Yet no catastrophe has emerged. This is long after these things went through decades of human and animal trials.

But as food is broken up into basic pieces during digestion and then built into our own dna, i am really not comfortable with the knowledge that now i will just have to accept that there will be artificially produced and/or manipulated material built into my own data. And that without proof that this has no side-effects. I think humankind should have waited with this until we could have shown that this is safe.
You completely lack understanding of DNA and how it works. DNA is composed of repeating units. The order of many tens of thousands to millions of these units is where the information lies. No individual nucleotide carries any information at all. You can't write a novel using only the letter 't'.

When you eat something, the nucleic acids are broken down by nucleases into individual nucleotides. It doesn't matter at that point where they came from. An adenine from a genetically modified corn plant is the exact same chemically to an adenine from human blood or the neuron of an ant or the plasmid of a bacterium. You can no more inherit the genetic modifications in the food you eat than you could become part cow by eating a hamburger.

On top of it, in the foodindustry, this is not used to make better food or food for the hungry in the world, no, it's used to be able to patent natural resources because now they are produced by your firm. And i get sick to the stomach everytime i think about it. In the not so far future you'll have to ask Nestle or other big players if you are allowed to plant corn or potatoes and stuff....this is the peak of hubris.
You don't seem to quite get the intricacies of biological patent laws. Which is understandable as they can be confusing. You can't patent the concept of corn any more than you can patent milk. You can only patent novel organisms and sequences. Or novel techniques. I could patent a specific drought resistant variety of corn, for example, but not the plant corn itself. Nor would my patent apply to every possible brand of drought resistant corn, if it were made drought resistant by modifying it in a different way.

In any case this goes back to before genetic engineering. Farmers have been able to patent specific strains of hybrid plants since long before we were genetically modifying crops. And it hasn't led to having to "ask Nestle or other big players if you are allowed to plant corn". The patents are too specific for that.


Edit: Btw, the die out comment was not meant as a question to the effect of one person and if this person wants to live or not. I meant it in a greater perspective. I for one think the human race is doomed to die out sooner or later. And we will have no one to blame than ourselves. And to be honest, if it is natural selection, i am fine with it too. That does not mean that i am not cherishing life to the fullest! And i think it is totally normal that almost everyone does and wants to do it as long as possible. Just to clear this up.
Any species will die given a sufficient period of time. Why shouldn't we delay that as long as possible?

Kellais

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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2014, 01:38:07 pm »
You know what, let's just get back to the topic of the thread. I don't know why i even started this tangent with you. Not that i am not interested in the topic per se, but it's not what this thread is about...and as i tried to point out, you obviously misread my first post.

I guess we sometimes talked past each other (probably mostly my fault because a) english is not my mother tongue and b) i might use some wrong technical terms when it comes to biology, but as i said, my education in the field of Biology lies way back and i have not update it recently. I am pretty sure they are not wrong as my education was quite extensive (not as extensive as yours, i am sure)...but to be honest it would entail too much work to update my "biology-dictionary". My work lies in the field of mathematics nowadays.
I still don't appreciate your tone and your talking down to me (all your "you don't understand" , "you have no knowledge of" stuff). I could start pointing out where you seem to not be understanding stuff (for example how big numbers work in relation to probabilites etc. ) but i don't. Why? Because it's rude. You can explain stuff and make arguments without opening every paragraph with a negative comment about your fellow poster's knowledge/capabilites.

Anyway, back to topic: Humanism and Transhumanism...yay or nay?

P.S.: The Sharmat, if you want to continue this dna gene manipulation stuff, maybe an own thread would be best. I might even post in it (if i find the time to update myself on the topic).
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