The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: profgrape on May 17, 2016, 01:31:22 am

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 17, 2016, 01:31:22 am
Thoughts from the Prologue and Chapter 1 excerpt posted at https://grimdarkmagazine.com/blogs/news/104286406-excerpt-from-r-scott-bakkers-the-great-ordeal (https://grimdarkmagazine.com/blogs/news/104286406-excerpt-from-r-scott-bakkers-the-great-ordeal).

1. Kellhus' recollection of the Outside seems to confirm Meppa's claims regarding the Gods, that they are nothing more than demons. 

2. Kellhus also confirms that he wars against the Gods themselves.  It was clear before that the Gods warred against him.  But not necessarily the other way around.

3. It's strongly implied that everyone is "damned".  Or at least that damnation is actually Man's purpose in a system constructed by the Gods.  I wonder, now, if the Thousandfold Thought was in fact recognizing this meta-system.

4. The living shall not haunt the dead.  I took this to mean that the living have no business interfering with the "damnation system."

5. The Consult's plans seem pretty sensible given the alternative.

Literally the first chapter and the mind-fucks have begun.  TGO cannot arrive soon enough!
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on May 17, 2016, 10:35:37 am
Any ideas what Kellhus means with his heart crashing into ruin like his empire? Guilt?

A lot of talk about son's as well. Esme running for hers. The Tracing, Proyas being remade as "new children", the crocodile sons of the outside. Son or children is used about 20 times in the passage.

Also some weird language...

"For twenty years now, he had dwelt in the circuit of his father’s Thought, scrutinizing, refining, enacting and being enacted. He had known it would crash into ruin after his departure ..."

Seems to be talking about the empire crashing but the passage could mean the TTT also crashing into ruin from his departure of it. Then he realises he is going to die?

"No flesh could be sundered from its heart and survive. All of his empire was doomed—was disposable. Kellhus had known this and he had prepared. No ...

It was the hazard of the converse that had eluded him ...

The fact that his heart would also crash into ruin."

I wonder what preparations were made, also what exactly this means.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on May 17, 2016, 11:52:18 am
Kellhus's line on, "crashing heart into ruin.", is exactly what I've been saying while on the Slog. He has feelings. Wether they externalize or not, no. He's Dunyain first. But, he isn't a heartless, lifeless soul. From what we just learned in the excerpt, the Gods are nothing human, and humans are just food for the Gods. Hell, anything to get rid of the Gods would be good for humanity in the end.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 17, 2016, 02:40:06 pm
Re: The living shall not haunt the dead, I now see that it is a parallel of the phrase that opens Chapter 1 (bold mine), "The living should not haunt the dead."

Also, after re-reading Chapter 1, it sure seems like the Apophagia is aimed at making men even tastier morsels for the Gods.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on May 17, 2016, 03:10:05 pm
Also, after re-reading Chapter 1, it sure seems like the Apophagia is aimed at making men even tastier morsels for the Gods.

How so? They talk about losing their soul, becoming less. Which would make them less tasty, I would think. Are the Sranc a tasty meal for the Gods? I think that this will be an advantage in Kellhus's war on the Gods, however it will be hell on the men of the Ordeal.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 17, 2016, 04:37:01 pm
That's a good point re: "becoming less".  My speculation is motivated by the following quote:

Quote
The Men of the Ordeal feasted. They slept with sated bellies, with the assurance that their most primitive needs had been secured. They awoke drowsy, without the dull and alarming hollow of starvation.
And a wild vitality crept through their veins.

The "wild vitality" could just come from not being starving every day.  But it could also be a Qirri-like effect that comes from eating Sranc.  And if the Gods are, as Meppa claims, "...beguiled by our torment, our ecstasy...", the side-effect of eating Sranc might just make their souls all the more tantalizing.

Of course, what you write above also makes sense, that Kellhus is doing this specifically to war against the Gods. :-)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on May 17, 2016, 08:31:22 pm
Good point with the Qirri, I was going to mention how they are similar, the side effects.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Nil Sertrax on May 17, 2016, 09:52:40 pm
Love the writing and I'm anxiously looking forward to July 7th!

Anyone have any insight into the section that begins with the following:

"There is a head on a pole behind you.

Brutalities spin and scrape, like leaves blasted in the wind.

He is here ... with you ... not so much inside me as speaking with your voice.There is a head on a pole behind you."

Unless I'm completely misreading this I'm assuming this is written from Kellhus' point of view based upon his experience in the Outside. 

"He comes to the shore that is here, always here, gazes without sight across waters that are fire, and sees the Sons swimming, lolling and bloated and bestial, raising babes as wineskins, and drinking deep their shrieks.

There is a head on a pole behind you.

And he sees that these things are meat, here. Love is meat. Hope is meat. Courage. Outrage. Anguish. All these things are meat—seared over fire, sucked clean of grease.

There is a head on a pole.

Taste, one of the Sons says to him. Drink.

It draws down its bladed fingers, and combs the babe apart, plucking him into his infinite strings, laying bare his every inside, so that it might lick his wrack and wretchedness like honey from hair. Consume ... And he sees them descending as locusts, the Sons, drawn by the lure of his meat.

There is a head ... and it cannot be moved."

Several times in this passage RSB uses the phrase "There is a head..."  I've read through the section a couple times trying to glean the significance of this phrase or imagery but I'm coming up short.  Anyone have any insight or speculation as to the significance of this phrase?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Tyrin on May 18, 2016, 01:45:29 am

1. Kellhus' recollection of the Outside seems to confirm Meppa's claims regarding the Gods, that they are nothing more than demons. 


If we tend to believe that Aurang was more or less telling the truth when he spoke with Kellhus during TTT, then Aurang also already confirmed as much. I imagine the Consult knows even more about the true nature of the Outside than Kellhus since their whole ethos revolves around breaking that connection.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 18, 2016, 01:55:37 am
Love the writing and I'm anxiously looking forward to July 7th!

Anyone have any insight into the section that begins with the following:

"There is a head on a pole behind you.

Brutalities spin and scrape, like leaves blasted in the wind.

He is here ... with you ... not so much inside me as speaking with your voice.There is a head on a pole behind you."

Unless I'm completely misreading this I'm assuming this is written from Kellhus' point of view based upon his experience in the Outside. 

"He comes to the shore that is here, always here, gazes without sight across waters that are fire, and sees the Sons swimming, lolling and bloated and bestial, raising babes as wineskins, and drinking deep their shrieks.

There is a head on a pole behind you.

And he sees that these things are meat, here. Love is meat. Hope is meat. Courage. Outrage. Anguish. All these things are meat—seared over fire, sucked clean of grease.

There is a head on a pole.

Taste, one of the Sons says to him. Drink.

It draws down its bladed fingers, and combs the babe apart, plucking him into his infinite strings, laying bare his every inside, so that it might lick his wrack and wretchedness like honey from hair. Consume ... And he sees them descending as locusts, the Sons, drawn by the lure of his meat.

There is a head ... and it cannot be moved."

Several times in this passage RSB uses the phrase "There is a head..."  I've read through the section a couple times trying to glean the significance of this phrase or imagery but I'm coming up short.  Anyone have any insight or speculation as to the significance of this phrase?


My best guess is that the head on the pole is the narrator's (presumably, Kellhus) connection to the World, maybe literal, maybe metaphorical.  The head on the pole is what designates him as living and therefore, immune to the Sons.

After re-reading this section again, it's stylistically unlike anything in the series.  Very impressive work by RSB.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wilshire on May 18, 2016, 02:49:38 am

1. Kellhus' recollection of the Outside seems to confirm Meppa's claims regarding the Gods, that they are nothing more than demons. 


If we tend to believe that Aurang was more or less telling the truth when he spoke with Kellhus during TTT, then Aurang also already confirmed as much. I imagine the Consult knows even more about the true nature of the Outside than Kellhus since their whole ethos revolves around breaking that connection.

Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: locke on May 18, 2016, 04:31:10 am
There is a head on the pole behind you. Serwes head, this is what he saw from the circumfix.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on May 18, 2016, 05:34:20 am
Could very well be locke, as that is the timeframe in which the revelation came to him.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wic on May 18, 2016, 11:07:43 am
REVELATIONS! More than I ever would have expected from a chapter excerpt. I feel like we could spend a year dissecting it (if we had to).

On profgrape's #3, if the purpose of souls are to be conceptually shredded and consumed by the gods/demons (not sure how the god-of-gods fits), then what creates them? If that's the end, what is the start? And what, presumably, does that have to do with Yatwer?

I was kind of blown away by how the Esmi section drew me in, the writing was phenomenal. That rapid scattered fire of memories, delusions, perspectives and fears in full panic.

I agree with profgrape that the 'head on a pole' is Kell's solid, Worldly self...at least somewhat. It's a strange image, but I do think the pole implies some sort of rigidity, and that it is behind him is some kind of dissociation. The passage suggests that 1. the head 'cannot be moved', and 2. it is reason to 'fear not damnation'.

I wonder if this has something to do with how Kell apparently sees the empire and TTT nearly indistinguishable from his own self.

Next thought - what the hell is up with Dunyain breeding methods!? There's surely something more than just some goofy ritualistic nonsense.

The introduction of that behavioral oddity, and as merchant said, all the mention of sons, makes me wonder...

Who is the Dunyain...character that Pat said is introduced?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on May 18, 2016, 11:24:20 am
Also did Kellhus actually "walk the outside"in this particular encounter. seems like he projected himself there in that one. His body was somewhere else with it's eyes rolled up. Seeing without eyes reminds me of the what Meppa says in WLW in the audience chamber with Pstama (mother superior of the Yatwer Cult (SP?)).

Although we've heard the outside has no stable way of looking , if one goes by the Scarlet Spires damnation archives or whatever they call it.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 18, 2016, 12:20:46 pm
REVELATIONS! More than I ever would have expected from a chapter excerpt. I feel like we could spend a year dissecting it (if we had to).

On profgrape's #3, if the purpose of souls are to be conceptually shredded and consumed by the gods/demons (not sure how the god-of-gods fits), then what creates them? If that's the end, what is the start? And what, presumably, does that have to do with Yatwer?

I was kind of blown away by how the Esmi section drew me in, the writing was phenomenal. That rapid scattered fire of memories, delusions, perspectives and fears in full panic.

I agree with profgrape that the 'head on a pole' is Kell's solid, Worldly self...at least somewhat. It's a strange image, but I do think the pole implies some sort of rigidity, and that it is behind him is some kind of dissociation. The passage suggests that 1. the head 'cannot be moved', and 2. it is reason to 'fear not damnation'.

I wonder if this has something to do with how Kell apparently sees the empire and TTT nearly indistinguishable from his own self.

Next thought - what the hell is up with Dunyain breeding methods!? There's surely something more than just some goofy ritualistic nonsense.

The introduction of that behavioral oddity, and as merchant said, all the mention of sons, makes me wonder...

Who is the Dunyain...character that Pat said is introduced?

Another wrinkle on Dunyain breeding:

Quote
They called it the Tracery, the rite that determined who among them would sire children and so sculpt the future of their terrible race.

The "terrible race" part really caught my eye. The fact that Kellhus appears to be casting judgment on the Dunyain *and* refers to them as a "race" rather than an "order" or "sect".

Now, it could be that "terrible race" refers to Men. But I don't think so.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on May 18, 2016, 01:31:36 pm
Quote
They called it the Tracery, the rite that determined who among them would sire children and so sculpt the future of their terrible race.

The "terrible race" part really caught my eye. The fact that Kellhus appears to be casting judgment on the Dunyain *and* refers to them as a "race" rather than an "order" or "sect".

Now, it could be that "terrible race" refers to Men. But I don't think so.

Another theory that kinda gets thrown overboard would be the Axlotl tanks, no? It says in that quote specifically, "sire". You wouldn't think they just get milked and no hanky panky, would ya? And the "seeds" bit from Akka's dream with Celmommas would definitely be talking about his line, and not a sperm bank. Awesome, a few ridiculous theories we can put to bed, I would think.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 18, 2016, 02:16:08 pm
Quote
They called it the Tracery, the rite that determined who among them would sire children and so sculpt the future of their terrible race.

The "terrible race" part really caught my eye. The fact that Kellhus appears to be casting judgment on the Dunyain *and* refers to them as a "race" rather than an "order" or "sect".

Now, it could be that "terrible race" refers to Men. But I don't think so.

Another theory that kinda gets thrown overboard would be the Axlotl tanks, no? It says in that quote specifically, "sire". You wouldn't think they just get milked and no hanky panky, would ya? And the "seeds" bit from Akka's dream with Celmommas would definitely be talking about his line, and not a sperm bank. Awesome, a few ridiculous theories we can put to bed, I would think.

Not to awaken a ridiculous theory, MSJ, but "sire" doesn't necessarily mean making babies the old-fasioned way.  Thankfully, however, it does effectively close up the sperm bank theory.  I hope.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on May 18, 2016, 02:21:35 pm
"He is here ... with you ... not so much inside me as speaking with your voice."

This is a strange line as well, it almost seems like they are talking about 2 people. Kellhus says his kids had two souls one that watches.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 18, 2016, 02:54:55 pm
Yeah, that one kind of blew my mind.  And got me wondering whether we're seeing Kellhus' perspective or the NG's perspective...
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wic on May 18, 2016, 10:46:03 pm
"He is here ... with you ... not so much inside me as speaking with your voice."

This is a strange line as well, it almost seems like they are talking about 2 people. Kellhus says his kids had two souls one that watches.


Reminded me of Kell's conversation with Akka about 'how can we both be here?' and then mimics Akka's response as he responds (though I still consider that second part little more than a Dunyain parlor trick). The concepts of self, here, there, and even time seem to have a new sort of meaning in the Outside.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Tyrin on May 18, 2016, 10:52:27 pm

1. Kellhus' recollection of the Outside seems to confirm Meppa's claims regarding the Gods, that they are nothing more than demons. 


If we tend to believe that Aurang was more or less telling the truth when he spoke with Kellhus during TTT, then Aurang also already confirmed as much. I imagine the Consult knows even more about the true nature of the Outside than Kellhus since their whole ethos revolves around breaking that connection.

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks! After a few weeks of lurking around reading various threads I just couldn't take it anymore and had to join the fun! ;)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Madness on May 19, 2016, 01:40:29 am
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Tyrin :).
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: H on May 19, 2016, 11:37:51 am

1. Kellhus' recollection of the Outside seems to confirm Meppa's claims regarding the Gods, that they are nothing more than demons. 


If we tend to believe that Aurang was more or less telling the truth when he spoke with Kellhus during TTT, then Aurang also already confirmed as much. I imagine the Consult knows even more about the true nature of the Outside than Kellhus since their whole ethos revolves around breaking that connection.

Aurang is love, Aurang is life.

Welcome to the board.  I've speculated at times before that Aurang isn't a liar he's just a braggart, so I have basically always agreed with you.

It's one of the reasons why I enjoy his appearances so much, he doesn't dance around anything, he calls it as he sees it (if you dig, you can probably see some of my speculation on why).  That doesn't mean he is always right, per se, but he is nothing if not...direct.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Darzin on May 21, 2016, 02:55:35 am
I don't think damnation is the only thing which happens in the outside I think it's just once side of the "harvest" some the gods reward some the gods punish.

Quote
He comes to the shore that is here, always here, gazes without sight across waters that are fire, and sees the Sons swimming, lolling and bloated and bestial, raising babes as wineskins, and drinking deep their shrieks.

Quote
He has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savoring the moaning broth of the Countless, bloating for the sake of bloat, slaking hungers like chasms, pits that eternity had rendered Holy ...

These seem to be both the outside, one has fire, one has sky,one has shrieks, one has moaning, and I would hazard to guess that in one the Sons feed off pleasure and in the other they feed off pain. How one gets sorted between one or the other I would guess is the difference between salvation and damnation, the world exists to give souls experience and depending on the experience the soul is used for pleasure or pain.

It's interesting to me that this section more or less proves the Cishaurim right, the gods are demons who just want to snack on souls. Given that Meppa seems to be able to see this I wonder what the Cishaurim method of avoiding this is? I also wonder if, seeing as  Kellhus is warring against the gods the Fanim invasion was not merely a consequence of leaving but a feature after all if you want to fight the gods it is the Fanim who would be  your natural allies not the Intrithi, we can see this already with the cults rising up.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wic on May 21, 2016, 09:39:07 am
It does leave a lot of open questions about the Cishaurim relationship with the Outside. I'm particularly thinking about how Ciphrang can grab onto their Water and pull their souls out of their bodies. What is the depth of their connection to their sorcery/thaumaturgy? Maybe the Solitary God is outside the normal, er, Outside scheme.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 23, 2016, 10:48:14 pm
Meta-question of the day: if the AA is concludes with someone (Kellhus, Mimara, etc) unifying the Gods and reawakening the God of Gods, where does that leave TSTSNBN? 

I'm thinking of what Madness (whom I don't believe is as much of a lying liar as he claims) said about how everything that we've read up to this point is just a prologue to the story that RSB wants to tell -- in a sense, what The Silmarillion is compared with The Hobbit or TLOTR.

If TGO/TUC builds to the unification/reawakening, how could that possibly be more interesting that what we've already gotten? 
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Tyrin on May 24, 2016, 12:24:57 am
I've speculated at times before that Aurang isn't a liar he's just a braggart, so I have basically always agreed with you.

I've gotten the same impression of Aurang in every appearance he's made (just look at how even Shae is shocked by Aurang's directness with Titirga).

After re-reading the excerpt and going back and having a look at TTT, I see that: 1) Kellhus' description of damnation to Proyas lines up exactly with what Aurang-as-Esmi already said ("We were born for damnation's sake") and 2)What Kellhus experiences in the Outside also lines up with Aurang's earlier statements ("Love is the Way... and yet these little demons you call Gods decree otherwise? Dole out their rewards in proportion to our suffering?").

So yes, Aurang is love, Aurang is life.  ;D


(On a somewhat unrelated note, there's something in that conversation between Kellhus and Aurang that always really caused me headaches: Aurang says "So long as there are men, there are crimes."  You may recognize this statement as being the exact one uttered by the Anasurimbor to the Dunyain in the prologue of TDTCB, to which the Dunyain responds: "Only so long as men are deceived." Recall that Aurang is called "the Angel of Deceit". I don't really know where I'm going with this but I think there's an Illuminati plot in there somewhere.)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Darzin on May 24, 2016, 10:21:08 am
That also fits with the quote from the witness of Fane, when making the world The God says "let there be deceit let there be desire,"

Also random bit of speculation I wonder if Cishaurim water washes the sin from you? I know the mark is not sin but it mentions in the false sun how Titirga's mark is strange and faded. So I wonder if the Cishaurim simply are not interesting to the agencies of the outside because they are "washed" by the water they bear. 
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 24, 2016, 06:10:19 pm
That also fits with the quote from the witness of Fane, when making the world The God says "let there be deceit let there be desire,"

Also random bit of speculation I wonder if Cishaurim water washes the sin from you? I know the mark is not sin but it mentions in the false sun how Titirga's mark is strange and faded. So I wonder if the Cishaurim simply are not interesting to the agencies of the outside because they are "washed" by the water they bear. 

It could be.  Just the name, "the Water", implies cleansing properties.  This assumes, of course, that the Cishaurim aren't damned like everyone else...

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wilshire on May 24, 2016, 06:17:33 pm
We can only hope that Mimara will gaze upon Meppa eventually.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: profgrape on May 24, 2016, 07:44:38 pm
We can only hope that Mimara will gaze upon Meppa eventually.

Indeed, that would be amazing.  Although I've no idea how it would happen given the current distance between them.  Still holding out hope that Akka and Mim will come across a Nonmen chariot at some point...

Considering the question of who is damned, Bakker once suggested that "whole countries will be damned" under the current system.  So it could be that the followers of the Solitary God have in fact found a method for bypassing the cycle of damnation.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on May 24, 2016, 08:15:00 pm
A quote from the Ishual chapter was brought to my attention. Its Akka talking about what happens when trapping a soul, explaining Shae's predicament to Mimara.

Quote
The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit.

When I read that, all I could think of is that sounds like a description of Meppa to a T. I know that I really want Meppa to be a product of what went down with Moe in Kyudea, that aside, it still sounds like the wondering Cish.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on May 26, 2016, 01:22:11 pm
All of the threads are honouring the Niom apart from Kellhus.

Esmenet- Kel/Thelli and esme.

Ishual. Koringus/Mimara Akka.

Ishterbenith - the original Niom trio.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wilshire on May 31, 2016, 04:24:46 pm
All of the threads are honouring the Niom apart from Kellhus.

Esmenet- Kel/Thelli and esme.

Ishual. Koringus/Mimara Akka.

Ishterbenith - the original Niom trio.
Interesting catch. What is the Niom again, two children and an enemy?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on May 31, 2016, 04:29:46 pm
son/daughter and enemy.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Tanhafut on June 10, 2016, 09:37:32 am
Looks like Kelmomas will be getting away with his mischief for a while yet.  I'd been slightly miffed that Inrilatas and Maithanet both died without managing to expose him in any real way.  But I must admit, the scene in the prologue, where he has orchestrated the exact moment he's found, asleep in mommy's throne, was a great touch.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on June 10, 2016, 01:10:00 pm
Yeah be interesting to see how the voice guides him now. If the gods empower him in some way, although not sure i'm looking forward to the details of what the wee psycho is going to do.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Onrack on June 10, 2016, 10:25:59 pm
Just read these two chapters, some really great material here. My hear breaks for Proyas, though it's good to be reminded he's a consummate fanatic at the same time.

I keep coming back to the bizarre passage with the head on the pole, curious stuff. Given that I'm reading TDTCB again at the moment, it immediately reminded me of the chapter where Inrau goes to the temple of Onkis, whose effigy is first described as being the head of a woman on a pole. This pole is ultimately revealed to be the likeness of a tree, but it's a striking image nonetheless.

Onkis is described as the singer in the dark, who "stood at the heart of all men, moving them to grasp far more than they could hold", which to me seems sort of like what Kellhus is doing with Proyas here, pushing him beyond his limits.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on June 11, 2016, 01:01:10 am
I didn't remember that description with the head on the pole. Although it could be relevant as Inaru is asking Onkis for help and "hears" run, just before he stumbles onto the consult.

So that scene already had some foreshadowed the gods. It could well be pointing even further into the series as well. Sounds like a good catch, will check it out. :)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2016, 01:06:45 am
Just read these two chapters, some really great material here. My hear breaks for Proyas, though it's good to be reminded he's a consummate fanatic at the same time.

I actually really enjoy Proyas' journey over books. I feel like it's underrated.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Darzin on June 11, 2016, 03:50:18 am
I feel the characterization of Proyas and Serwe are both underrated they are so different from us, which is why writing them convincingly is no mean feat.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2016, 01:45:46 pm
There's a bias in there somewhere ;). The more disparate a person's worldview, the easier it is to disparage them?

Not on your part, I just mean, some sense suggests that that idea encapsulates what you see on say, Westeros.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Onrack on June 11, 2016, 09:53:30 pm
Just read these two chapters, some really great material here. My hear breaks for Proyas, though it's good to be reminded he's a consummate fanatic at the same time.

I actually really enjoy Proyas' journey over books. I feel like it's underrated.
Agreed completely. I'd say it goes under the radar because it's more understated, but he's gone through real changes despite still being a believer to the core. Though I suppose anything seems understated compared to the bugfuck insanity of Cnaiur's arc.
As to the point about the alien worldview I wholeheartedly agree! It's rare that an author can convincingly portray a medieval fanatic mindset I think.

Darzin,
I'm not so sure about Serwe's characterization, it seems to me a big part of it is that her arc is so repetitive and ultimately just ends without any real change to her. Maybe re-reading the Warrior Prophet will change my mind.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on June 12, 2016, 02:56:38 am
Akka and Proyas need to meet up again. Akka needs to stare at Proyas while Proyas looks sheepish and says "don't say it I know you've been telling me all this time and i never fucking listen"
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on June 13, 2016, 11:22:26 am
A poster at Westeros:R'hllors Red Lobster has started a re-read and they noticed the passage below. Which Onrack notes above(maybe the same person), just going to reproduce it below as it is really is interesting.

Just started my first re-read of the series, and just came across this passage; Inrau visiting the shrine of Onkis


 The idol was worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient  Norsirai. [...]

    Her image never failed to stir something within him, and this is why he always returned to her; she was stirring, the dark place where the flurries of his thoughts arose. She came before him.


(Bolding mine)

I still think there is something more to the "Outside" scene, wondering if this may have any significance.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Onrack on June 14, 2016, 05:34:40 am
It's not me! What a weird coincidence if it is one, they're even doing their first re-read too! It really is very interesting, perhaps something related to how one can achieve godhood? Could also be a metaphor illustrating that physical form is irrelevant in the Outside.

Having read the rest of the Westeros, I'm disappointed to find out that most people already seem to have procured a copy and are discussing it already. Would be nice to be able to speculate along, oh well. I'm sure there'll still be a ton to discuss when I get mine in July, there always is with these books.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on June 14, 2016, 05:50:30 am
It's not me! What a weird coincidence if it is one, they're even doing their first re-read too! It really is very interesting, perhaps something related to how one can achieve godhood? Could also be a metaphor illustrating that physical form is irrelevant in the Outside.

Having read the rest of the Westeros, I'm disappointed to find out that most people already seem to have procured a copy and are discussing it already. Would be nice to be able to speculate along, oh well. I'm sure there'll still be a ton to discuss when I get mine in July, there always is with these books.

Nice!! It's an amazing catch from you both, I read it here first. Then on westeros they put the text in, so i came back to add the text.

Inranu(sp?) also hears "run" as a thought from Onkis when he prays what to do, he doesn't listen and bumps into the consult. It's pretty cool, cause after TJE/WLW you go back and read it, and catch Onkis saying run, now you go back after the excerpts and you catch the head on the pole. I imagine it will be replicated throughout the book, pretty impressive.

Some of us haven't read the ARC (3 last count but will drop more) so you'll have more folk to discuss it with here. I'm glad more folk have appeared i was worrying i'd have to get my real time discussions on the book over at Westeros. However folk have read the book over there as well, and haven't withdrawn, i saw someone complaining about spoilers , which turned out to be someone trolling or something to get attention.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Onrack on June 14, 2016, 05:56:31 am
Was that definitely Onkis saying run? I thought that was just Inrau's own mind, but I suppose given the intervention of the gods in later books it makes sense. I'm definitely on the lookout for similar head on poll imagery now, that's for sure.

And oh good, I'm not entirely alone! I saw the talk of spoilers over there, will most certainly be avoiding those threads till I get a copy. I assume the secret forum will be re-integrated into the forum later? Would be nice to be able to read those posts eventually.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on June 14, 2016, 06:44:31 am
Was that definitely Onkis saying run? I thought that was just Inrau's own mind, but I suppose given the intervention of the gods in later books it makes sense. I'm definitely on the lookout for similar head on poll imagery now, that's for sure.

And oh good, I'm not entirely alone! I saw the talk of spoilers over there, will most certainly be avoiding those threads till I get a copy. I assume the secret forum will be re-integrated into the forum later? Would be nice to be able to read those posts eventually.

No idea, however he is praying for guidance and "hears" run. Doesn't run, meets the consult and dies. So in the context that he gods exist and Inranu being a "good" person, it isn't beyond the possibility that the god was trying to give timely advice. Also Inranu "speaks" to Akka in a dream (after he dies) where Akka dreams that he is warning him about the consult being hidden. Which is true.

Madness will decide what to do with the forum. they'll probably open it up. I'll get my book about 2 days after everyone else as it's being shipped to Europe so will have to disappear for a couple of days. Everyone else will have came back by then though so will be busier.

Judging by the information in the excerpts, it'll take a few months to get through everything anyway.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Madness on June 14, 2016, 01:53:11 pm
And oh good, I'm not entirely alone! I saw the talk of spoilers over there, will most certainly be avoiding those threads till I get a copy. I assume the secret forum will be re-integrated into the forum later? Would be nice to be able to read those posts eventually.

My thought is to simply lock it all up and people can read the threads. Some of the ARC readers that I've communed with think that we should open it up and let people post (but if I was going to do that, I'd probably just move those threads to TGO subforum).

We'll see.

I think many of us still doubt the existence of the published artifact, because we've been strung out so long. And it's even worse that those depending on order from UK might be waiting up until September for the paperback...

I'll note again - though, there will be a stickied thread somewhere - when the book is available for purchase and TGO subforum will be a place to avoid... damnit, Quorum is probably not coming back until September :(.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Onrack on June 14, 2016, 03:52:31 pm
Wait, September? I'm in Ireland, so I'll be counting on the UK as well. That is quite a bummer. I see the hardcover listed for early July on amazon, but it also says it's unavailable...I thought Orbit were better than Overlook at getting stuff out.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wilshire on June 14, 2016, 07:26:28 pm
Looks like you're stuck with buying Overlook editions from amazon.com if you want it in July, otherwise you're going to have to wait for Orbit editions in September.

... damnit, Quorum is probably not coming back until September :(.
It'll force people to talk in threads, maybe. Not such a bad thing.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Aural on June 17, 2016, 04:34:16 pm
My thought is to simply lock it all up and people can read the threads. Some of the ARC readers that I've communed with think that we should open it up and let people post (but if I was going to do that, I'd probably just move those threads to TGO subforum).

Would you give someone access if they don't mind spoilers, won't talk about it, and probably won't read the book? It's cool if you say no, of course.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2016, 04:40:17 pm
IMO, the books are going to be out in a few weeks and that subforum will be made public.

So, my vote would be a soft 'no'. However, it doesn't do me any harm to give you access, so I don't really care much either way.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on June 17, 2016, 06:28:26 pm
My thought is to simply lock it all up and people can read the threads. Some of the ARC readers that I've communed with think that we should open it up and let people post (but if I was going to do that, I'd probably just move those threads to TGO subforum).

Would you give someone access if they don't mind spoilers, won't talk about it, and probably won't read the book? It's cool if you say no, of course.

No Peekers on the Slog! Lol.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: The Sharmat on June 21, 2016, 06:28:48 pm
Was that definitely Onkis saying run? I thought that was just Inrau's own mind,
That is what Onkis is. Yearning, inspiration, etc.

I have two thoughts on the head-on-a-pole

1. Kellhus is, as much as this has any meaning in the outside, in the precincts of Onkis. The Sons are hers. This is her conceptual corner of the Outside.

2. Onkis is aiding Kellhus. Keeping him fixed. Even if it's possibly to her detriment...when her whole sphere is inspiration and impossible desire, overreaching...how can she do anything else but try to spur on the Thousandfold Thought? It's her nature.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: themerchant on June 21, 2016, 08:09:53 pm
Onrack have you read False Sun, Onkis is referenced in there it can be read here.

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Onrack on June 22, 2016, 01:15:00 am
I've been meaning to get around to that but I'd forgotten, thanks themerchant. Will read it soon.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2016, 04:31:09 pm
Was that definitely Onkis saying run? I thought that was just Inrau's own mind,
That is what Onkis is. Yearning, inspiration, etc.

I have two thoughts on the head-on-a-pole

1. Kellhus is, as much as this has any meaning in the outside, in the precincts of Onkis. The Sons are hers. This is her conceptual corner of the Outside.

2. Onkis is aiding Kellhus. Keeping him fixed. Even if it's possibly to her detriment...when her whole sphere is inspiration and impossible desire, overreaching...how can she do anything else but try to spur on the Thousandfold Thought? It's her nature.
Analogues to Onkis the head on a pole seem strong. I like this thought - though if Onkis really is helping Kellhus to her detriment. I wonder, is she compelled to do this because that is her nature?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: The Sharmat on September 11, 2016, 07:06:26 pm
No idea. Gilgaöl almost came across as a Kellhus fan in the switched perspective version of the Kelmomian prophecy, too, at least to me.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 12, 2016, 08:44:02 am
If you trace the pattern from the Holy War to the Wars of Unification to the Great Ordeal, Kellhus is a very enthusiastic and successful warmonger and how can Gilgoal not respect that?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: JRControl on September 12, 2016, 10:58:18 am
Kellhus is good for business. Soul harvest rate went up 1500% since he took over as CEO at Earwa Inc.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2016, 02:36:59 pm
Yeah, plenty of Gods should be on Kellhus' side. War, pestilence, disease, famine, and the trickster. Though, that's only if the outcome is what they are after, and those aren't just arbitrary things assigned the ciphrang/gods. If the important piece is worshipers, then they would all be against him since he's presumably taking them all away.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: H on September 12, 2016, 02:47:24 pm
Yeah, plenty of Gods should be on Kellhus' side. War, pestilence, disease, famine, and the trickster. Though, that's only if the outcome is what they are after, and those aren't just arbitrary things assigned the ciphrang/gods. If the important piece is worshipers, then they would all be against him since he's presumably taking them all away.

Business might be good now, but there is a strong possibility that business will be closed in the near future.  Unless they somehow know that Kellhus auction doesn't want to/won't be able to actually undo/countermand damnation, but from Yatwer's position on him, that seems unlikely to me.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: JRControl on September 12, 2016, 04:15:04 pm
Yeah, plenty of Gods should be on Kellhus' side. War, pestilence, disease, famine, and the trickster. Though, that's only if the outcome is what they are after, and those aren't just arbitrary things assigned the ciphrang/gods. If the important piece is worshipers, then they would all be against him since he's presumably taking them all away.

I'm thinking that the Demon Gods each have a particular brand of emotions they like to feed on. Everyone really wins except Yatwer perhaps, who can maybe see the end of birth if Kellhus has his way? I'm not sure. I can't remember why exactly she and her cult is after him, other than supplanting the usual religious tradition.

Maybe it's like modern capitalism, Kellhus has a legal obligation to maximize shareholder value (or face legal action) even though milking the franchises with annual increases will destroy its longevity and/or sustainability. Yatwe is the zombie board member shouting LONG TERM GAINS.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2016, 06:52:06 pm
Lol don't say that. I like long term gains guy!
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2016, 01:34:02 am
I can't remember why exactly she and her cult is after him, other than supplanting the usual religious tradition.

She is after him because she is blind to the No-God. She sees him as death and destruction, a Taker. She doesn't know that Kellhus is trying to stop the Consult and the No-God, just thinks he is after power. But, if I'm right, she should be after him anyway because I believe he is trying to shut the Outside all the same and end damnation. Or, at the very least take over the Outside all for himself and end the 100 that way.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: JRControl on September 15, 2016, 01:39:28 pm
Aye, but there have been many Takers in history and there are other Gods with other interests. I'm certain there should be something else in play we're not aware of.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2016, 01:46:48 pm
Aye, but there have been many Takers in history and there are other Gods with other interests. I'm certain there should be something else in play we're not aware of.

Maybe because he's been to the Outside, Yatwer's playground and she recognizes his power. Remember, the Gods see all of time and the see the END. They see Kellhus, not the No-God. We have proof of this from the Celmommas dream in TGO. Yatwer thinks Kellhus is the one to end birth and whatever may come about. Kellhus is the only one She can blame for what she sees as the end.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: H on September 15, 2016, 02:13:28 pm
Maybe because he's been to the Outside, Yatwer's playground and she recognizes his power. Remember, the Gods see all of time and the see the END. They see Kellhus, not the No-God. We have proof of this from the Celmommas dream in TGO. Yatwer thinks Kellhus is the one to end birth and whatever may come about. Kellhus is the only one She can blame for what she sees as the end.

Perhaps they never see the No-God because specifically it isn't the End.  Kellhus is the End, a good end or a bad end, he is the End.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Prologue + Chapter 1 excerpt
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2016, 03:13:08 pm
Perhaps they never see the No-God because specifically it isn't the End.  Kellhus is the End, a good end or a bad end, he is the End.

Either way, that the idea I was going for. They're after Kellhus because they associate home with the end.