The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Cüréthañ on February 10, 2014, 03:33:25 am
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Kicking off with this.
Despite the beard, the resemblance to Nau-Cayuti, his ancient cousin, was unmistakable.
Enough to make Celmomas think he is seeing his son in his vision as he dies, perhaps? Perhaps a hint that Kellhus has authored the prophecy that he apparently fulfills by traveling to the outside where we know that time passes 'differently'.
In TDTCB, when Akka meets Kellhus he thinks he knows him and recalls the resemblance to Celmomas. This certainly seems to erode the theory that NC is actually the son of Seswatha, at the very least.
Then we have the theories relating to NC as somehow being Mog, and the theories that Kellhus will become Mog. Relevant and related, perhaps?
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The whole No-God is soul-borne Nau-Cayuti... that literally is nerdanel in extreme - the only piece of evidence this is based on is that there is a nameless captive being dragged towards a Golden Room.
I don't buy it.
But equally nerdanel is the idea that Kellhus is time-warped Nau-Cayuti, which I do buy.
But hell, I've submitted that Achamian and Kellhus travel through time at the end of this series to fight the First Apocalypse.
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The resemblance between Kellhus and Celmomas is odd. They really shouldn't look much alike at all if Nau wasn't his son.
Unless Celmomas' wife was the Anasurimbor, and he took her name when they Married because of the prestige... Then maybe a bastard child from Mrs. could still bare some family resemblance to the brothers, but still wouldn't look like the father... Unless they are actually brother/sister or cousins that look similar in the first place.
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Also, it seems rather strange that after 2000 years of selective breeding that Kellhus and Moe should so closely resemble their ancient forebears.
Nonmen blood dominates perhaps? We know that all nonmen look very similar...
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We know that all nonmen look very similar...
Only to humans. Akka says that to each other Nonman look just as different as humans do.
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Well, yeh - Mek recognizes Kellhus as an Anasurimbor too iirc, although not at first.
"I can see his blood in your face."
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Also, it seems rather strange that after 2000 years of selective breeding that Kellhus and Moe should so closely resemble their ancient forebears.
Nonmen blood dominates perhaps? We know that all nonmen look very similar...
I really only see 2 options.
1) Its Nonmen blood. If the Anasurimbor bloodline has nonman blood, all kinds of weird things can happen and I'd be fine with that. Hereditary ability to see the Onta, and remaining similar in appearance through the ages, seem like 2 traits that could easily be explained by this.
2) 'Its fantasy' and/or 'world conspires'. This is one of those things that I'd allow to slip through the cracks. Having Anasurimbor Kellhus look very similar to his ancestor makes for a fun story and adds depth to Akka's conviction. Whether or not this could have actually have happened given IRL Humans doesn't really matter to me :P
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Or perhaps genetics work differently in Earwa.
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Or perhaps genetics work differently in Earwa.
Damn, I was going to make a 3rd bullet but figured that different genetics fits into 2.
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Whether or not this could have actually have happened given IRL Humans doesn't really matter to me :P
Nicolas Cage.
http://article-1316526718153-0e003cf000000578-790150_362x220.jpg
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Link didn't work. I assume hilarity.
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Link didn't work for me either.
Could it have been this?
http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/nic-cage-cat-face-3.png
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The whole No-God is soul-borne Nau-Cayuti... that literally is nerdanel in extreme - the only piece of evidence this is based on is that there is a nameless captive being dragged towards a Golden Room.
I don't buy it.
But equally nerdanel is the idea that Kellhus is time-warped Nau-Cayuti, which I do buy.
But hell, I've submitted that Achamian and Kellhus travel through time at the end of this series to fight the First Apocalypse.
Oh was it you that first proposed that? I've always liked that one, it's my favourite nerdanel , last triology called the first apocalaypse.
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Link didn't work for me either.
Could it have been this?
http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/nic-cage-cat-face-3.png
Ridiculous.
Oh was it you that first proposed that? I've always liked that one, it's my favourite nerdanel , last triology called the first apocalaypse.
I want to say that Nerdanel may have proposed that once in the long, long ago ;).
Unfortunately, Bakker has mentioned elsewhere that he'd like to write a standalone of the First Apocalypse (pssh, get real, Bakker - can't tell that story in one book) so that makes me think I'm wrong. Unless he's been playing the long con.
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I thought he wanted to write the stand-alone on CC and the first cuno-inchoroi wars?
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I remember both comments on ZTS.
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Super-crackpot: Kellhus looks like Nau-Cayuti because NC has been kept alive in Ishual for breeding purposes for 2000 years. Kellhus is simply Nau-Cayuti's son, one of a number. Old Moe isn't Kellhus' dad, he's Kellhus older brother!
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Old Moe isn't Kellhus' dad, he's Kellhus older brother!
Not sure about the rest, but this bit I like. Very much.
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I think it was brought up in your Dunyain genetics thread, Wilshire, but aren't all the Dunyain almost all genetic clones at this point anyways because of blending - though, it would be a neat M. Night-type twest if they were Clone Troopers.
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No not necessarily. They are all genetic cousins, but that isn't saying a whole lot. After all, most humans are only a few % different themselves.
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After all, most humans are only a few % different themselves.
Truth, but hell, we're not much separated from animals nearer to us along the evolutionary continuum either. Those differences can account for a lot.
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I think it was brought up in your Dunyain genetics thread, Wilshire, but aren't all the Dunyain almost all genetic clones at this point anyways because of blending - though, it would be a neat M. Night-type twest if they were Clone Troopers.
I hadn't thought about it till you put it that way--I don't have any evidence, but I guess the Dunyain could pursue separate breeding lines. You know, one line to eventually replace weapons pragma, one to replace meditations pragma. IDK
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I don't know if you've read Dune or not but I would assume that the Dunyain keep meticulous breeding records.
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Yeah, I guess that kind of thing doesn't count as turning away from history. I wonder if the dunyain had an idea that they were getting close like the witches did.
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Wilshire seems to think the Dunyain would anticipate a Kwisatz Haderach ;).
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http://www.topatoco.com/graphics/00000001/goat-kwisatz.png
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That is a wicked shirt. MG, have you checked out the Herbert and Bakker (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=889.0) thread?
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Not yet! I think I was saving it. I like both writers so much. :)
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The whole No-God is soul-borne Nau-Cayuti... that literally is nerdanel in extreme - the only piece of evidence this is based on is that there is a nameless captive being dragged towards a Golden Room.
I don't buy it.
But equally nerdanel is the idea that Kellhus is time-warped Nau-Cayuti, which I do buy.
But hell, I've submitted that Achamian and Kellhus travel through time at the end of this series to fight the First Apocalypse.
While i do agree that there is no conclusive proof about Nau-Cayuti's fate, the nameless captive isn't the only indication that he ends up inside the No God. Aka's dreams in the last book seem to follow a logical sequence and most of them concern Nau-Cayuti. He even dreams about the manner of his "death" which was certainly not a part of Seswatha's memories. So it's not a far fetched conclusion that the broken man moving towards the Golden Room is in fact Nau-Cayuti. This also explains the Kelmonian prophesy, since Nau-Cayuti's soul would actually be present when his father died.
As for the Kellhus resemblance, why is it assumed that only one Nau-Cayuti's parents is an Anasurimbor? They were a very big family with allot of branches. And even if she wasn't an Anasurimbor she would most certainly be a Norsirai of the same era. So he could look similar to Kellhus in Aka's eyes, and still be Seswatha's son that took after his mother.
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Welcome back to the Second Apocalypse, SOA. It's good to see you.
However, the second assumption and the greater one is that the Golden Room somehow produces the No-God?
EDIT: There's pretty good argument here (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=943.0) that Ganrelka can't be Celmomas' or Seswatha's son making none of the Dunyain Celmomian Seed - though, this revelation is only recently really sinking in for me.
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Thanks, it's good to be back :)
I've always thought that the Anasurimbor of the prophesy is actually Mimara.
As for the Golden Room, it's just an educated guess. The nameless man and all others waiting in the line are already broken, so i guess the Inchies already had their fun with them. They are gathering them all either because they want to kill them, or because they want to use them in some other way. The fact that the nameless man instinctively dreads what happens in that room seems to imply that whatever that is, it's worse than torture and worse than death (Nau-Cayuti himself says that he doesn't fear death as there are worse things iirc).
Another guess has to do with the secret ingredient to the No-God recipe. Souls are gates to the outside. Shae uses a circle of souls to keep his own from falling in Hell. So with what we know so far, i would assume that the secret sauce is made of souls.
Last but not least, the prophesy itself is the corner stone of this story and i refuse to take it at face value. If Nau-Cayuti is dead and the outside is closed how can he reach his father? There is also the fact that the Consult also has a similar prophesy. What if the 2 prophesies have the same source ?
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Guesses, schmeshes.
There is not enough evidence and I hope we can't anticipate Bakker so easily ;).
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Guesses, schmeshes.
There is not enough evidence and I hope we can't anticipate Bakker so easily ;).
You have to admit that my last argument isn't that far-fetched :P. Besides, there is always Aka's dream in the first chapter of the WLW, you know, the one with the child and the No God.
Nothing conclusive, i know ;). It's just one of those things. As soon as i finished A Game of Thrones i was willing to bet my... ehhmm let's go with honor, that i knew who was Jon's mommy (and dad :P). Still can't prove it though, damn...
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Lol.
I just find it difficult to believe the string of assumptions necessary to assume that Nau-Cayuti is the No-God.
Assumptions that go into Nau-Cayuti as the No-God:
- Nau-Cayuti is the Nameless Captive
- The Golden Room manifests the No-God
- The Golden Room uses the Line O'Captives to manifest the No-God
- The Golden Room requires 144,000 people in the Line O'Captives to manifest the No-God
- Nau-Cayuti/the Nameless Captive is somehow more than the other 143,999 people in the line in the No-God.
Thus, Nau-Cayuti is the No-God...
Too much nerdanel for me to support ;).
EDIT:
Sixth assumption: Baby in the dream is Nau-Cayuti, is No-God?
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Thanks, it's good to be back :)
I've always thought that the Anasurimbor of the prophesy is actually Mimara.
As for the Golden Room, it's just an educated guess. The nameless man and all others waiting in the line are already broken, so i guess the Inchies already had their fun with them. They are gathering them all either because they want to kill them, or because they want to use them in some other way. The fact that the nameless man instinctively dreads what happens in that room seems to imply that whatever that is, it's worse than torture and worse than death (Nau-Cayuti himself says that he doesn't fear death as there are worse things iirc).
Another guess has to do with the secret ingredient to the No-God recipe. Souls are gates to the outside. Shae uses a circle of souls to keep his own from falling in Hell. So with what we know so far, i would assume that the secret sauce is made of souls.
Last but not least, the prophesy itself is the corner stone of this story and i refuse to take it at face value. If Nau-Cayuti is dead and the outside is closed how can he reach his father? There is also the fact that the Consult also has a similar prophesy. What if the 2 prophesies have the same source ?
Like that part a lot! Also, very cool what you said--if Nau-Cayuti is the NG, then he is there at his dad's death. Communicating sorcerously? What with all these dreams being sent, is someone coaching Celmomas through a death vision...TO CONDITION SESWATHA???
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Lol.
I just find it difficult to believe the string of assumptions necessary to assume that Nau-Cayuti is the No-God.
Assumptions that go into Nau-Cayuti as the No-God:
- Nau-Cayuti is the Nameless Captive
- The Golden Room manifests the No-God
- The Golden Room uses the Line O'Captives to manifest the No-God
- The Golden Room requires 144,000 people in the Line O'Captives to manifest the No-God
- Nau-Cayuti/the Nameless Captive is somehow more than the other 143,999 people in the line in the No-God.
Thus, Nau-Cayuti is the No-God...
Too much nerdanel for me to support ;).
EDIT:
Sixth assumption: Baby in the dream is Nau-Cayuti, is No-God?
Isn't it obvious? He is the newest model, fresh from the oven! There is no such thing as too much nerdanel, you just have to do it with style ;D.
My favorite pet theory has always been that something has caused a loop in Earwa and that's why so many events big and small repeat themselves. So the baby should be Nau Cayuti 2000, since according to Mimara who is NEVER wrong (ever), she is just a conduit that allowed Aka's (Seswatha) and Esmi's (empress) love child to be born. If the dream implies that the baby is connected to the No God, then something similar should apply to the older model as well. It's totally straightforward as you can see for yourself.
I know it doesn't sound that impressive of a theory yet, but that's because i haven't yet managed to incorporate Elvis in to the mix. He will be the glue that makes this theory completely airtight, you will be awed.
Like that part a lot! Also, very cool what you said--if Nau-Cayuti is the NG, then he is there at his dad's death. Communicating sorcerously? What with all these dreams being sent, is someone coaching Celmomas through a death vision...TO CONDITION SESWATHA???
If? Iiiiffffffff? How can you people still be in doubt, it's practically a proven fact by now. Who was coaching whom, that's a good question. Celmomas saw Nau-Cayuti but whom did the Consult see. WHAT DID THEY SEE?
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Isn't it obvious? He is the newest model, fresh from the oven! There is no such thing as too much nerdanel, you just have to do it with style ;D.
Lol.
My favorite pet theory has always been that something has caused a loop in Earwa and that's why so many events big and small repeat themselves. So the baby should be Nau Cayuti 2000, since according to Mimara who is NEVER wrong (ever), she is just a conduit that allowed Aka's (Seswatha) and Esmi's (empress) love child to be born.
I like the time loop but what is this about Mimara suggesting she bears her Mother's child? I remember that line but I read it as more a metaphor for the fact that had Kellhus not happened, Esmenet and Achamian would have probably had children and that the only reason Mimara and Achamian did the deed was because of Esmenet.
If the dream implies that the baby is connected to the No God, then something similar should apply to the older model as well. It's totally straightforward as you can see for yourself.
I know it doesn't sound that impressive of a theory yet, but that's because i haven't yet managed to incorporate Elvis in to the mix. He will be the glue that makes this theory completely airtight, you will be awed.
Lol.
Like that part a lot! Also, very cool what you said--if Nau-Cayuti is the NG, then he is there at his dad's death. Communicating sorcerously? What with all these dreams being sent, is someone coaching Celmomas through a death vision...TO CONDITION SESWATHA???
If? Iiiiffffffff? How can you people still be in doubt, it's practically a proven fact by now. Who was coaching whom, that's a good question. Celmomas saw Nau-Cayuti but whom did the Consult see. WHAT DID THEY SEE?
I agree completely that the Celmomian Prophecy is an entity's tool. Whose tool is the question? I liked one of the more recent ideas is that it's Kellhus conditioning the present by affecting the past.
However, prophecy is an entirely different question, I think...
We do not know enough yet about how it works. We have two instances (Kellhus and Achamian) that predict the future and in both cases it seems to happen in order to help those who predicted it... so we've guessed Fate. Then we have two instances, prophecy (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=46.0) and false prophecy (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=453.0) and then one on this topic started by none other than SOA (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=950.0) ;).
We don't know enough about the mechanics involved though. And there are too many players that might affect dreams still...
Bakker seeded the fuck out of this series... Moenghus is sending dreams to the Dunyain in the prologue and it's taken many of us until TAE/WLW to start applying agency to the Celmomian Prophecy...
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I like the time loop but what is this about Mimara suggesting she bears her Mother's child? I remember that line but I read it as more a metaphor for the fact that had Kellhus not happened, Esmenet and Achamian would have probably had children and that the only reason Mimara and Achamian did the deed was because of Esmenet.
That's the trick. I really liked the JE allot, so i read it back to back a few times and i noticed that something was off with Mimara. The first thing that stuck with me was that she knows thinks she has no ways of knowing. For example she remarks that Soma is no man at all. It wasn't a metaphor (most readers at the time thought he was an eunuch) and she herself didn't realize he is a skin spy till much latter. I had noticed more little snippets like this but i will have to re-read the last 2 books to relocate them, my memory is kind of bad.
Another unique thing about her are her POVs. They are always in the present, kind of like the WLW's. While as a human being she understands time in a linear fashion, she seems to have a special connection to the outside that allows a part of her to look in the world from the outside. I'd go as far as to say that she is closer to the God than any other human being and that's what the JE is, she looks with God's eyes. In a way, her remarks are scripture ;).
Since the world is a kind of super entity, with a will of its own (fate), what she says about the child is very important, especially from a mother's perspective. Every instinct and even the physical reality of pregnancy makes her statement very unusual. But if you factor all of the recurring events in Earwa's history, it takes a very literal meaning. The child was meant to happen, like it happened before.
Another interesting thing with Mimara's POV's is that the author himself talks directly to his audience about the world and not through the world and his characters like his does with the rest of his POVs. They are written more or less the same way the "what came before" chapters are, which break the fourth wall in some cases (trolling us in the process :P).
Let's make a detour to talk about the Dunyain a little. Where the rest of the world share similar beliefs, the Dunyain believe in only one thing, causality. The have trained their will so much as to deny their instincts, their nature, their sensory input and every other thing that defines a human being except the Logos. In a sense, they are the most fanatical of all beings in Earwa, so their belief is singular and very very potent. That's how Kellhus bends fate around him, with belief, which is such a delicious irony. His actions delayed the birth of the child, but it had to be born in one way or another and Mimara understands that in a subconscious level. This is not just another child and we all know it ;).
Lol.
You are mocking my beliefs? Shame on you...
I agree completely that the Celmomian Prophecy is an entity's tool. Whose tool is the question? I liked one of the more recent ideas is that it's Kellhus conditioning the present by affecting the past.
However, prophecy is an entirely different question, I think...
We do not know enough yet about how it works. We have two instances (Kellhus and Achamian) that predict the future and in both cases it seems to happen in order to help those who predicted it... so we've guessed Fate. Then we have two instances, prophecy (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=46.0) and false prophecy (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=453.0) and then one on this topic started by none other than SOA (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=950.0) ;).
We don't know enough about the mechanics involved though. And there are too many players that might affect dreams still...
Bakker seeded the fuck out of this series... Moenghus is sending dreams to the Dunyain in the prologue and it's taken many of us until TAE/WLW to start applying agency to the Celmomian Prophecy...
Those are some interesting threads, thanks for pointing them out. I especially liked the part about Nau-Cayuti being the No God, i don't feel alone in the world anymore ;D. Now about the entity. What is the No God? What is the outside for that matter and how the fuck do you close such a thing? Let's avoid unneeded complexity and go for some simple observations. The outside is full of souls, it's therefore alive and must have some kind of will. Most think that the No God is some singular being that cuts off the outside. What if the No God is just another outside? A constructed one to be more precise, that has limited capacity (i will leave you to guess the exact number ;)).
Now what does Celmomas see when he dies?
“They call to me. They say that my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha.”
Notice the they? They can't be from the outside, since it's closed to the world. Therefore they are inside the No God, where Celmomas is currently headed. And there is where Nau-Cayuti is as well, one of many but not the same as the rest. Souls in Earwa are not equal, we have been hearing that since the beginning of the books, but we now know because Mimara confirms it. Even Shae calls Nau-Cayuti a prize. So he is in there, with a bunch of other souls and they form the inside of the No God. Since the No God takes the place of the outside and has a limited capacity, souls can't be recycled so there are no new births. I believe though that if the population drops below the 144k number, there will be new births with souls that come out of the No God to inhabit the fetuses. If you want a more visual example, think the No God like a matroska doll inside another one (the world).
That's what happens inside the No God, but what happens outside? More or less what happens to human beings. the No God is self aware, so he perceives himself as one, and strives to create an identity, but can't due to the contradiction of the inside, since he is the sum of thousands of different souls and their relations with one another. So he asks everyone outside of him what do they see, in order to build his identity through a watcher. A little system theory coupled with a little nuclear physics courtesy of mister Bakker.
Thus the prophesy is the tool of the souls inside the No God. There is only one prophesy, but there is more than one recipient and the interpretation of each faction is filtered through confirmation bias. So instead of one prophesy we get two :P. Btw, since the Consult follows Mimara around, they seem to think that she is the scion, while the mandate has accepted Kellhus as the harbinger. You know where i'd bet the farm ;).
The most interesting part of the story is the world though. The No God is self aware and that's why he has a will and strives for purpose. Since there is fate, it means the world also has a will but we can't see the identity, the whole if you will, because we always look inside it through the characters.
I do believe there has been an exception to the rule with Mimara though. In the JE, she looks through the tear of God and reaches God. The Cish probably do the same by blinding themselves, but Mimara is the only character that lets us witness this through her POV. What is God if not the super entity of the world? And there is the kicker, how the fuck can the world be self aware and have an identity without a watcher. Where and what is that watcher? Maybe he is the God exactly because he can watch and thus completely know himself, i don't know.
Maybe the answer isn't a metaphysical one. The world isn't as new as it seems from Earwa's technological advancement. Maybe Men, NonMen and even the Inchoroi are all the products of the fall of another age that was highly advanced. As much as the world seems to revolve around metaphysics, genetics play an abnormally large part in it.
I will close this post with some food for thought (translation = trolling). Since events repeat themselves, couldn't the world as we know it just be a simulation :P?
[EDIT] Or even better, maybe some crazy dude built the nail of heaven to watch over Earwa, making it self aware, wouldn't that be fun?
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I like the time loop but what is this about Mimara suggesting she bears her Mother's child? I remember that line but I read it as more a metaphor for the fact that had Kellhus not happened, Esmenet and Achamian would have probably had children and that the only reason Mimara and Achamian did the deed was because of Esmenet.
That's the trick. I really liked the JE allot, so i read it back to back a few times and i noticed that something was off with Mimara. The first thing that stuck with me was that she knows thinks she has no ways of knowing. For example she remarks that Soma is no man at all. It wasn't a metaphor (most readers at the time thought he was an eunuch) and she herself didn't realize he is a skin spy till much latter. I had noticed more little snippets like this but i will have to re-read the last 2 books to relocate them, my memory is kind of bad.
This couldn't simply be her, in context of Achamian, suggesting that Soma plays nice but he's really a beast, like all men? How can you say that it wasn't a metaphor?
Another unique thing about her are her POVs. They are always in the present, kind of like the WLW's. While as a human being she understands time in a linear fashion, she seems to have a special connection to the outside that allows a part of her to look in the world from the outside. I'd go as far as to say that she is closer to the God than any other human being and that's what the JE is, she looks with God's eyes. In a way, her remarks are scripture ;).
I'm usually wrong about it but I was corrected last time so here goes. The WLW is still written in past tense. Mimara and Yatwer's POV are written in present tense...
Another interesting thing with Mimara's POV's is that the author himself talks directly to his audience about the world and not through the world and his characters like his does with the rest of his POVs. They are written more or less the same way the "what came before" chapters are, which break the fourth wall in some cases (trolling us in the process :P).
I think the What Has Come Before is laced with lies. But everyone else seems to oscillate back and forth.
You'd have to give us examples of the authorial comments coming through... What if Mimara is mistaken in her certainty?
Let's make a detour to talk about the Dunyain a little. Where the rest of the world share similar beliefs, the Dunyain believe in only one thing, causality. The have trained their will so much as to deny their instincts, their nature, their sensory input and every other thing that defines a human being except the Logos. In a sense, they are the most fanatical of all beings in Earwa, so their belief is singular and very very potent. That's how Kellhus bends fate around him, with belief, which is such a delicious irony. His actions delayed the birth of the child, but it had to be born in one way or another and Mimara understands that in a subconscious level. This is not just another child and we all know it ;).
Maybe... evidence?
Lol.
You are mocking my beliefs? Shame on you...
Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.
Those are some interesting threads, thanks for pointing them out. I especially liked the part about Nau-Cayuti being the No God, i don't feel alone in the world anymore ;D. Now about the entity. What is the No God? What is the outside for that matter and how the fuck do you close such a thing? Let's avoid unneeded complexity and go for some simple observations. The outside is full of souls, it's therefore alive and must have some kind of will. Most think that the No God is some singular being that cuts off the outside. What if the No God is just another outside? A constructed one to be more precise, that has limited capacity (i will leave you to guess the exact number ;)).
The No-God by this description would only be the vacuum for souls - how does it stop new souls coming into the world or the Gods exercising an effect on the world?
Notice the they? They can't be from the outside, since it's closed to the world. Therefore they are inside the No God, where Celmomas is currently headed. And there is where Nau-Cayuti is as well, one of many but not the same as the rest. Souls in Earwa are not equal, we have been hearing that since the beginning of the books, but we now know because Mimara confirms it. Even Shae calls Nau-Cayuti a prize. So he is in there, with a bunch of other souls and they form the inside of the No God. Since the No God takes the place of the outside and has a limited capacity, souls can't be recycled so there are no new births. I believe though that if the population drops below the 144k number, there will be new births with souls that come out of the No God to inhabit the fetuses. If you want a more visual example, think the No God like a matroska doll inside another one (the world).
I get it. I don't buy it but it has internal consistency.
That's what happens inside the No God, but what happens outside? More or less what happens to human beings. the No God is self aware, so he perceives himself as one, and strives to create an identity, but can't due to the contradiction of the inside, since he is the sum of thousands of different souls and their relations with one another. So he asks everyone outside of him what do they see, in order to build his identity through a watcher. A little system theory coupled with a little nuclear physics courtesy of mister Bakker.
I like this description and it kind of explains why Nau-Cayuti might be the most prominent soul within... however, the post doesn't match the internal consistency of the 144, 000 narrative - which is itself inconsistent.
Wutteat, Achamian, and Ganus the Blind all have some idea of 144, 000 as a number of people who survive something. Is it the Apocalypse? What legend does Achamian refer to? Is it something digested from the Inchoroi's own mythos to now human myth?
Thus the prophesy is the tool of the souls inside the No God. There is only one prophesy, but there is more than one recipient and the interpretation of each faction is filtered through confirmation bias. So instead of one prophesy we get two :P. Btw, since the Consult follows Mimara around, they seem to think that she is the scion, while the mandate has accepted Kellhus as the harbinger. You know where i'd bet the farm ;).
Well... we don't know what the False Prophecy is. Maybe the Consult are kept busy because every time someone utters a prophecy they have to play their endgame within new constraints and so are forced to know and respect them all.
The most interesting part of the story is the world though. The No God is self aware and that's why he has a will and strives for purpose. Since there is fate, it means the world also has a will but we can't see the identity, the whole if you will, because we always look inside it through the characters.
I do believe there has been an exception to the rule with Mimara though. In the JE, she looks through the tear of God and reaches God. The Cish probably do the same by blinding themselves, but Mimara is the only character that lets us witness this through her POV. What is God if not the super entity of the world? And there is the kicker, how the fuck can the world be self aware and have an identity without a watcher. Where and what is that watcher? Maybe he is the God exactly because he can watch and thus completely know himself, i don't know.
Maybe but I was just saying to MG in another thread - we don't know whose Eye judges... It could be the God of Gods, the Solitary God, Anagke, Ajokli, Yatwer, Gilgaol, No-God, etc, etc... each making Mimara more or less reliable.
Maybe the answer isn't a metaphysical one. The world isn't as new as it seems from Earwa's technological advancement. Maybe Men, NonMen and even the Inchoroi are all the products of the fall of another age that was highly advanced. As much as the world seems to revolve around metaphysics, genetics play an abnormally large part in it.
Except we don't know how Yatwer has been affecting the genetical strings, even though they seem to behave like our world.
I will close this post with some food for thought (translation = trolling). Since events repeat themselves, couldn't the world as we know it just be a simulation :P?
Theory: Earwa is a simulation (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1109.0) ;).
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This couldn't simply be her, in context of Achamian, suggesting that Soma plays nice but he's really a beast, like all men? How can you say that it wasn't a metaphor?
"It's Somandutta, the one man here she trusts, and only then because he is no man."
I mean look at the choice of words, it seems deliberate to me. Besides, you can't interpret the no man part in many ways, she either talks about gender, or about species. She had no way of knowing either one of them. Even in the context that men are beasts, it doesn't make much sense, why not just remark he isn't a beast like the others? The fact that it came true is also suspect. Of course, nothing is certain with Bakker, he is always vague with his clues as the rectum theory might attest. Still, when he does sneaky stuff like that there is usually a reason for it.
I'm usually wrong about it but I was corrected last time so here goes. The WLW is still written in past tense. Mimara and Yatwer's POV are written in present tense...
Yeah, you are right, i told you my memory sucks :P.
I think the What Has Come Before is laced with lies. But everyone else seems to oscillate back and forth.
You'd have to give us examples of the authorial comments coming through... What if Mimara is mistaken in her certainty?
I on the other hand think that the what has come before part is told from another perspective. Perspective is the cornerstone of these books. The watcher/narrator in this case isn't a part of the world of Earwa, he is outside of it like the reader. Again, i have to re read the books to relocate the parts that led me to that conclusion. The only one that stuck is about Kellhus becoming insane. Why would he make such a categorical statement? Unless it's from our perspective where the sane view is that the effect follows the cause and not the other way around.
[/quote]
Maybe... evidence?
Oh come on. The fact that Aka saw the child in a Seswatha dream didn't trigger any alarms at all to you? Even the Consult thinks it's important. There is no hard evidence because Scott doesn't give us any, ever. The bastard.
Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.
So, this is the circuit between the troll and the trolled. I have to admit that i am starting to doubt about my role in it. Well played Madness ;).
The No-God by this description would only be the vacuum for souls - how does it stop new souls coming into the world or the Gods exercising an effect on the world?
That's an easy one, there are no new souls :P. Earwa is eco friendly, the souls are recycled. They leave their memories in the outside and then back in the fray they go. That's why the souls inside the No God want out, they are bored to death.
I get it. I don't buy it but it has internal consistency.
You don't have to buy it, you just have to sing my praises when i am proven right. I am already writing the lyrics to save you some time.
I like this description and it kind of explains why Nau-Cayuti might be the most prominent soul within... however, the post doesn't match the internal consistency of the 144, 000 narrative - which is itself inconsistent.
Wutteat, Achamian, and Ganus the Blind all have some idea of 144, 000 as a number of people who survive something. Is it the Apocalypse? What legend does Achamian refer to? Is it something digested from the Inchoroi's own mythos to now human myth?
The reason i don't speculate about the number is that while there are references outside the books, Scott hasn't given us one useful hint about it. That doesn't mean i don't have a few theories of my own, but since they are completely baseless i don't think there is any reason to share them.
Well... we don't know what the False Prophecy is. Maybe the Consult are kept busy because every time someone utters a prophecy they have to play their endgame within new constraints and so are forced to know and respect them all.
Sure, there are endless possibilities, but we have to work with what we do know, and we get the Celmomian prophesy right at the beginning and most importantly we get it directly, not through Seswatha or another middle man.
Maybe but I was just saying to MG in another thread - we don't know whose Eye judges... It could be the God of Gods, the Solitary God, Anagke, Ajokli, Yatwer, Gilgaol, No-God, etc, etc... each making Mimara more or less reliable.
Again, it has to do with perspective. In the scope the everything is defined by the watcher/watched circle, there are two outsides. the one looking in, to the world of Earwa and the one that looks out in space. The God of Gods is not a single entity, he is the sum of the Ciphrang that watch the world, something conceptual. The Solitary God is called that because his is one and alone. He is the outside looking out, the outside surface of a sphere if you will. Everything, including the physical world, the Ciphrang and the God of Gods is a part of him. Mimara sees him looking through the tear of God. The hundred can't see the No God because he is surrounded by tears of God and they can't look outside, only inside.
I am well aware that there is little evidence to base all this besides system theory, and a few comments by the author (like Earwa is a character for example). Since it's one of the few theories i've come up that make some sense though, i am willing to go with it :P.
Except we don't know how Yatwer has been affecting the genetical strings, even though they seem to behave like our world.
Is there even a hint that Yatwer is doing something like that? If not, i propose Santa, as the mastermind behind the genetic mutations, i just like him better than Yatwer. The only little hint there is about genetics has to do with the Inchies. Why do they have to get to Earwa in order to "fix" their little problem with damnation? The only reasonable explanation is that their souls originated there in the first place, and return there when they die. In other words, Inchies and probably Non Men are mutated humans of another age, and the second apocalypse is actually the third :P.
Theory: Earwa is a simulation (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1109.0) ;).
Lol, i guess even when trolling i get second place :'(. But there is still hope. Has anyone suggested that the Nail of Heaven is sentient and has a watcher/watched circuit with Earwa?
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"It's Somandutta, the one man here she trusts, and only then because he is no man."
I mean look at the choice of words, it seems deliberate to me. Besides, you can't interpret the no man part in many ways, she either talks about gender, or about species. She had no way of knowing either one of them. Even in the context that men are beasts, it doesn't make much sense, why not just remark he isn't a beast like the others? The fact that it came true is also suspect. Of course, nothing is certain with Bakker, he is always vague with his clues as the rectum theory might attest. Still, when he does sneaky stuff like that there is usually a reason for it.
I think that quote suggests that Bakker is playing with the idea of the reader's eventual knowledge that Soma is a skin-spy. But I think Mimara is suggesting she trusts Soma because he's not lusting after her like a man.
I think the What Has Come Before is laced with lies. But everyone else seems to oscillate back and forth.
You'd have to give us examples of the authorial comments coming through... What if Mimara is mistaken in her certainty?
I on the other hand think that the what has come before part is told from another perspective. Perspective is the cornerstone of these books. The watcher/narrator in this case isn't a part of the world of Earwa, he is outside of it like the reader. Again, i have to re read the books to relocate the parts that led me to that conclusion. The only one that stuck is about Kellhus becoming insane. Why would he make such a categorical statement? Unless it's from our perspective where the sane view is that the effect follows the cause and not the other way around.
Well, Bakker has said that the TTT Glossary is from the perspective of what is more or less common knowledge at the time of the Holy War. So one cue would be that the further away from the Holy War the less likely it happened as it reads.
But I would say it's comparable to his omnipresent war scenes (which again, doesn't contradict the theory you're chasing but it doesn't automatically support it either).
Maybe... evidence?
Oh come on. The fact that Aka saw the child in a Seswatha dream didn't trigger any alarms at all to you? Even the Consult thinks it's important. There is no hard evidence because Scott doesn't give us any, ever. The bastard.
Lol - well, you quoted what I accept as evidence above with Somandutta. No, there is no reason for me to assume that because Mimara's pregnant, that the baby in Achamian's Dream is automatically related...
Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.
So, this is the circuit between the troll and the trolled. I have to admit that i am starting to doubt about my role in it. Well played Madness ;).
Lol? What?
The No-God by this description would only be the vacuum for souls - how does it stop new souls coming into the world or the Gods exercising an effect on the world?
That's an easy one, there are no new souls :P. Earwa is eco friendly, the souls are recycled. They leave their memories in the outside and then back in the fray they go. That's why the souls inside the No God want out, they are bored to death.
Specifically, though, your nerdanel has not suggested that the Gods' can't influence the world. You haven't sketched how the No-God's existence cuts of the Outside or how that stops the influence of the Gods.
I get it. I don't buy it but it has internal consistency.
You don't have to buy it, you just have to sing my praises when i am proven right. I am already writing the lyrics to save you some time.
I don't know that I have to do that either :P. But if you predict something, I probably will sing your praises.
I like this description and it kind of explains why Nau-Cayuti might be the most prominent soul within... however, the post doesn't match the internal consistency of the 144, 000 narrative - which is itself inconsistent.
Wutteat, Achamian, and Ganus the Blind all have some idea of 144, 000 as a number of people who survive something. Is it the Apocalypse? What legend does Achamian refer to? Is it something digested from the Inchoroi's own mythos to now human myth?
The reason i don't speculate about the number is that while there are references outside the books, Scott hasn't given us one useful hint about it. That doesn't mean i don't have a few theories of my own, but since they are completely baseless i don't think there is any reason to share them.
This other stuff isn't fairly baseless :P?
Sure, there are endless possibilities, but we have to work with what we do know, and we get the Celmomian prophesy right at the beginning and most importantly we get it directly, not through Seswatha or another middle man.
Right... sorry, you seemed to be making claims about the content of the False Prophecy.
Again, it has to do with perspective. In the scope the everything is defined by the watcher/watched circle, there are two outsides. the one looking in, to the world of Earwa and the one that looks out in space. The God of Gods is not a single entity, he is the sum of the Ciphrang that watch the world, something conceptual. The Solitary God is called that because his is one and alone. He is the outside looking out, the outside surface of a sphere if you will. Everything, including the physical world, the Ciphrang and the God of Gods is a part of him. Mimara sees him looking through the tear of God. The hundred can't see the No God because he is surrounded by tears of God and they can't look outside, only inside.
I am well aware that there is little evidence to base all this besides system theory, and a few comments by the author (like Earwa is a character for example). Since it's one of the few theories i've come up that make some sense though, i am willing to go with it :P.
It's your nerdanel. I don't have to be convinced :).
Except we don't know how Yatwer has been affecting the genetical strings, even though they seem to behave like our world.
Is there even a hint that Yatwer is doing something like that? If not, i propose Santa, as the mastermind behind the genetic mutations, i just like him better than Yatwer. The only little hint there is about genetics has to do with the Inchies. Why do they have to get to Earwa in order to "fix" their little problem with damnation? The only reasonable explanation is that their souls originated there in the first place, and return there when they die. In other words, Inchies and probably Non Men are mutated humans of another age, and the second apocalypse is actually the third :P.
Yatwer is the Goddess of Birth?
Theory: Earwa is a simulation (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1109.0) ;).
Lol, i guess even when trolling i get second place :'(. But there is still hope. Has anyone suggested that the Nail of Heaven is sentient and has a watcher/watched circuit with Earwa?
No, I think that one is all you 8).
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Lol, i guess even when trolling i get second place :'(. But there is still hope. Has anyone suggested that the Nail of Heaven is sentient and has a watcher/watched circuit with Earwa?
That's cool! The nail of heaven is an eye...and it stares most at Athrithau.
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"It's Somandutta, the one man here she trusts, and only then because he is no man."
I mean look at the choice of words, it seems deliberate to me. Besides, you can't interpret the no man part in many ways, she either talks about gender, or about species. She had no way of knowing either one of them. Even in the context that men are beasts, it doesn't make much sense, why not just remark he isn't a beast like the others? The fact that it came true is also suspect. Of course, nothing is certain with Bakker, he is always vague with his clues as the rectum theory might attest. Still, when he does sneaky stuff like that there is usually a reason for it.
I think that quote suggests that Bakker is playing with the idea of the reader's eventual knowledge that Soma is a skin-spy. But I think Mimara is suggesting she trusts Soma because he's not lusting after her like a man.
[/quote]
When I first read that paragraph, I interpreted it simply as "he's not like other men in her life and experience". (And do you know that this ambiguity would be lost in translation - in most languages words for "male" and "human" are different, so a translator would have to make a decision?)
BTW, what tipped me off that Soma was a skin-spy was something totally different - the smell of myrrh that surrounds him.
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I think that quote suggests that Bakker is playing with the idea of the reader's eventual knowledge that Soma is a skin-spy. But I think Mimara is suggesting she trusts Soma because he's not lusting after her like a man.
Soma courted her from the very start, he seems to want her, ermmm, physically to every observer there is including the reader. So, even if she intuits that this is an act, there is still something fishy going on. Not that i think she understands where from, and why that thought came into her head. There was no precedent to that conclusion in her POV, it just happened. That's why it's so suspect.
Well, Bakker has said that the TTT Glossary is from the perspective of what is more or less common knowledge at the time of the Holy War. So one cue would be that the further away from the Holy War the less likely it happened as it reads.
But I would say it's comparable to his omnipresent war scenes (which again, doesn't contradict the theory you're chasing but it doesn't automatically support it either).
It's still one less relation to my deductions though, unless in the future Earwa is no longer sentient/ the world follows causality.
Lol - well, you quoted what I accept as evidence above with Somandutta. No, there is no reason for me to assume that because Mimara's pregnant, that the baby in Achamian's Dream is automatically related...
There is, Scott has said that the timing of the dreams is very important, so there :P.
Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.
So, this is the circuit between the troll and the trolled. I have to admit that i am starting to doubt about my role in it. Well played Madness ;).
Lol? What?
The shame on you part was pure trolling, but the semi serious tone of your answer left me in doubt. Am i trolling or have i just been counter trolled? So whatever your initial intention was, serious or not, the result was guaranteed. Thus well played ;D.
Specifically, though, your nerdanel has not suggested that the Gods' can't influence the world. You haven't sketched how the No-God's existence cuts of the Outside or how that stops the influence of the Gods.
The Gods are influenced and do influence the world, action and reaction. They are defined by the world that interacts with them and they define it. I don't doubt that. They just can't interact with the surface of the outside because they don't see it, so for them it doesn't exist. As for how the No God replaces the outside, i really don't know, Scott hasn't given the slightest clue about it. Maybe it has to do with distance, maybe there is an engine with great torque somewhere inside it, maybe it was the weather (whirlwind et all). I pm'ed Shae about it and his reply was "mum is the word".
I don't know that I have to do that either :P. But if you predict something, I probably will sing your praises.
See, my plan worked. You may assert your independence, but my suggestion was successfully planted in your brain! Mouhahahahaha!!
This other stuff isn't fairly baseless :P?
It's not completely baseless though, When there is no direct line that connects every cause with its effect you have to draw some lines on your own, but you do need a starting point. Right now i can't find a starting point for that number in the context of the books or even in Scott's little tidbits.
Right... sorry, you seemed to be making claims about the content of the False Prophecy.
I am. As long as we don't get the actual contents of the Consult prophesy i have to infer that said prophesy is the one we witness at the beginning of it all. It's possible that since Celmomas was almost inside the No God when he conveyed Nau-Cayuti's words he had a different perspective then those outside the No God (everyone still alive and able to hear it). So i stand by my view that there is one source but two different interpretations of the same prophesy.
Yatwer is the Goddess of Birth?
Santa bears gifts, life is a gift, kids are a gift :P. Ok, you have a point, i will admit my defeat with dignity, as soon as i find were i've placed it.
No, I think that one is all you 8).
That's good, it's so crazy that it might be true :P
[EDIT]
When I first read that paragraph, I interpreted it simply as "he's not like other men in her life and experience". (And do you know that this ambiguity would be lost in translation - in most languages words for "male" and "human" are different, so a translator would have to make a decision?)
BTW, what tipped me off that Soma was a skin-spy was something totally different - the smell of myrrh that surrounds him.
What tipped me off was that phrase, i didn't make the connection with the smell, good one. As for Mimara's experience with man, as a former prostitute and current princes, she has known every kind of man there is, including men of gentle upbringing like Soma. His approach isn't novel at all, he just tries to win instead of take like the rest of the skin eaters would do. While she the princess in Momemn, many tried that route with her, she thinks as much in her POVs.
You have a point with translations. A Greek translation would be fun though, there is a specific word for a human male (andras, aren) and another word that applies to everything male (arseniko), so that would be a huge tell :). Since this isn't a clue that affects the story much (yes, we scrutinize Bakker even when he coughs, searching for hidden clues, but we are all in need of professional help), i don't think Scott particularly cares, whatever his intention with this line has been.
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I think that quote suggests that Bakker is playing with the idea of the reader's eventual knowledge that Soma is a skin-spy. But I think Mimara is suggesting she trusts Soma because he's not lusting after her like a man.
Soma courted her from the very start, he seems to want her, ermmm, physically to every observer there is including the reader. So, even if she intuits that this is an act, there is still something fishy going on. Not that i think she understands where from, and why that thought came into her head. There was no precedent to that conclusion in her POV, it just happened. That's why it's so suspect.
I don't think that is super-obvious to every reader. But again, Soma is not openly lusting after her like the rest of the Skin Eaters. That automatically makes him less of a threat than the others.
There is, Scott has said that the timing of the dreams is very important, so there :P.
Conditioned by lies...
Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.
So, this is the circuit between the troll and the trolled. I have to admit that i am starting to doubt about my role in it. Well played Madness ;).
Lol? What?
The shame on you part was pure trolling, but the semi serious tone of your answer left me in doubt. Am i trolling or have i just been counter trolled? So whatever your initial intention was, serious or not, the result was guaranteed. Thus well played ;D.
I'm not completely sure about what trolling means... I'm pretty much deadly serious all the time or I'm 100% joking? I know that doesn't help but trolling doesn't sound like something I would do (just looked up trolling).
The Gods are influenced and do influence the world, action and reaction. They are defined by the world that interacts with them and they define it. I don't doubt that. They just can't interact with the surface of the outside because they don't see it, so for them it doesn't exist. As for how the No God replaces the outside, i really don't know, Scott hasn't given the slightest clue about it. Maybe it has to do with distance, maybe there is an engine with great torque somewhere inside it, maybe it was the weather (whirlwind et all). I pm'ed Shae about it and his reply was "mum is the word".
So... back to the beginning. You attribute the Celmomian Prophecy as Nau-Cayuti speaking from inside the new mini-Outside of the No-God... except that you haven't given a good reason why that same dream/prophecy/message can't legitimately be from the Gods?
See, my plan worked. You may assert your independence, but my suggestion was successfully planted in your brain! Mouhahahahaha!!
Lol. Mayhaps. But I don't believe your inception will come to pass. Nor do I care that you come before me.
Right... sorry, you seemed to be making claims about the content of the False Prophecy.
I am. As long as we don't get the actual contents of the Consult prophesy i have to infer that said prophesy is the one we witness at the beginning of it all. It's possible that since Celmomas was almost inside the No God when he conveyed Nau-Cayuti's words he had a different perspective then those outside the No God (everyone still alive and able to hear it). So i stand by my view that there is one source but two different interpretations of the same prophesy.
... the assumptions are killing me slowly, SOA.
[EDIT]
When I first read that paragraph, I interpreted it simply as "he's not like other men in her life and experience". (And do you know that this ambiguity would be lost in translation - in most languages words for "male" and "human" are different, so a translator would have to make a decision?)
BTW, what tipped me off that Soma was a skin-spy was something totally different - the smell of myrrh that surrounds him.
What tipped me off was that phrase, i didn't make the connection with the smell, good one. As for Mimara's experience with man, as a former prostitute and current princes, she has known every kind of man there is, including men of gentle upbringing like Soma. His approach isn't novel at all, he just tries to win instead of take like the rest of the skin eaters would do. While she the princess in Momemn, many tried that route with her, she thinks as much in her POVs.
Good catch, Alia. That is a line I only noticed after reading WLW. But Esmenet notes that Sarcellus smells of myrrh, I believe, in TDTCB.
SOA, I really don't think Mimara knows about Soma before it's obvious - when he's doing impossible things to protect her. And I'm not sure what you are trying to extend that logic towards?
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Conditioned by lies...
Then tell me the truth... And even Scott is a dirty liar who lies, there is still the Consult that thinks the pregnancy is very important.
I'm pretty much deadly serious all the time or I'm 100% joking?
Since i can't see your facial expression i will go with both ;)
So... back to the beginning. You attribute the Celmomian Prophecy as Nau-Cayuti speaking from inside the new mini-Outside of the No-God... except that you haven't given a good reason why that same dream/prophecy/message can't legitimately be from the Gods?
Sure i am, that's what Celmomas tells his audience. He says Nau-Cayuti speaks to him. Of course he might be lying, or it might be one of the Hundred, another ciphrang, the God of Gods, the Solitary God or Santa in disguise. Maybe, just maybe in this case the obvious explanation is the correct one :P
Lol. Mayhaps. But I don't believe your inception will come to pass. Nor do I care that you come before me.
Ha, you shouldn't be so certain. I have proposed so many (admittedly crazy) things about the series through the years that statistically a few of them are bound to be close to the mark. Btw i am already writing your speech. Or would you prefer a song? I am good with rhyming.
... the assumptions are killing me slowly, SOA.
I will stop then. All life is sacred, and jokes aside, the conversation has become cyclical many quotes ago.
SOA, I really don't think Mimara knows about Soma before it's obvious - when he's doing impossible things to protect her. And I'm not sure what you are trying to extend that logic towards?
Yeah, i agree. I didn't say she consciously knows, it's very apparent she doesn't. I said (or tried to say) that her remark was correct, so some part of hers at that exact point in time might have seen the truth.
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Conditioned by lies...
Then tell me the truth... And even Scott is a dirty liar who lies, there is still the Consult that thinks the pregnancy is very important.
I don't know any truths beyond what we know.
How does the pregnancy tie Mimara or her baby to the Celmomian Prophecy and then somehow automatically to the False Prophecy?
This was going to be my point but... I don't know that making it is going to help my argument. Mimara is tied to the False Prophecy.
To try and keep this straight for myself. You've written:
- No-God is a new mini-Outside.
- Nau-Cayuti is the most prominent Soul inside the No-God.
-- If the number of Souls in the World fell below 144, 000 (or some number) that new births would happen, soul-recycled from the No-God.
- Nau-Cayuti tells Celmomas and X from the Consult the same words (? - I'm not clear on this) because somehow you've intimately tied what very well might be two prophecies.
Then from this, I think you've gone on to suggest that:
- Mimara is Anasurimbor descended (admittedly, I've fought for this one) as is her baby.
- False Prophecy and Celmomian Prophecy are the same, based on both hearing Nau-Cayuti within the No-God.
-- If you collapse the vessels of the words, the No-God is speaking to Achamian (or Seswatha), rather than strictly Celmomas (but you could basically recycle any entity in the series into the antecedent and consequent positions).
Some of these I think I have contentions with. Lol - really, apologies because if there were more people here, I'd be one dissenting voice. I like to take my speculation in small steps as it allows an easier and more deliberated assertion of what may come.
I think it's easiest to assume that False Prophecy suggests True Prophecy. Perhaps, Kellhus did something like True Prophecy with the Shrial Knights or Achamian with Sauglish and the Coffers. But we have no way to know if the Celmomian Prophecy is False or True.
My only take away that we can know from this is that False Prophecy exists as distinguished from True, and that the Consult believes that a Prophecy involving Mimara is False... All else is unsubstantiated.
I'm pretty much deadly serious all the time or I'm 100% joking?
Since i can't see your facial expression i will go with both ;)
That was serious? Ugh... I'm digging a hole here :P. Putting down the shovel.
So... back to the beginning. You attribute the Celmomian Prophecy as Nau-Cayuti speaking from inside the new mini-Outside of the No-God... except that you haven't given a good reason why that same dream/prophecy/message can't legitimately be from the Gods?
Sure i am, that's what Celmomas tells his audience. He says Nau-Cayuti speaks to him. Of course he might be lying, or it might be one of the Hundred, another ciphrang, the God of Gods, the Solitary God or Santa in disguise. Maybe, just maybe in this case the obvious explanation is the correct one :P
Actually, Celmomas says that he sees the Gods and that his son rides with them?
And none of what you just wrote supported Nau-Cayuti as speaking from within the No-God (we get no indication of this?) or why the Gods can't communicate to the world while the No-God is around (which you seemed to suggest was the case upthread)?
Lol. Mayhaps. But I don't believe your inception will come to pass. Nor do I care that you come before me.
Ha, you shouldn't be so certain. I have proposed so many (admittedly crazy) things about the series through the years that statistically a few of them are bound to be close to the mark. Btw i am already writing your speech. Or would you prefer a song? I am good with rhyming.
I'm good with oratory or song... but I'm hardly going to sing your praises alone. This will clearly involve all those speculators who have been apart of this world for years, taking turns in groups to sing/speak the praises of each other :P.
... the assumptions are killing me slowly, SOA.
I will stop then. All life is sacred, and jokes aside, the conversation has become cyclical many quotes ago.
It didn't have to, SOA :P. All conversations are not flat circles.
SOA, I really don't think Mimara knows about Soma before it's obvious - when he's doing impossible things to protect her. And I'm not sure what you are trying to extend that logic towards?
Yeah, i agree. I didn't say she consciously knows, it's very apparent she doesn't. I said (or tried to say) that her remark was correct, so some part of hers at that exact point in time might have seen the truth.
Of course, just like the line that Alia suggested, Bakker has seeded commentary that might enable the reader to guess that Soma is a skin-spy - though perhaps not as obvious. This was my issue. It's a stretch to suggest that the line you quote before about Soma should indicate to the reader that Soma is a skin-spy but I do think that Bakker probably wrote that very tongue in check.
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I will try to make a more serious post, attempting to explain parts of my reasoning. I will also try to separate what i actually think is probable from the crackpot theories i do for fun.
I've believed (and probably stated here or in the asofai forum) that Mimara was a true Anasurimbur since the moment i put down the JE for the first time. This came before :P. The Nau-Cayuti part was seeded by Scott's comment about the timing of the dreams. Why had Aka to learn now about Nau-Cayuti? He seems to follow his story from conception to "death", breaking every rule about the dreams in the process. It's not about the Heron spear, the narrative surpasses that point and goes on to place him in Golgoterath at the end of his life. And while we don't know why it took the Consult/Inchies so long to build the No God the first time, the second time should be faster. They have the know how, the carapace and no one believes they exist. They seem to be waiting for something.
All this (with the exception of Mimara) is not speculation, it's taken directly from the books. I tried to connect the pieces we have and Nau-Cayuti seemed to me the most probable common factor, as implied by the dreams. I am still working on my Elvis theory, when i am done i will post it as another atrocious tale (hopefully even more badly written than the first one). For now, the only connection i can see to all this is Nau-Cayuti.
The No God theory started to form in my head when i was reading the first trilogy. There was a lot of talk about the outside, where souls went to be judged. But to me, the most important clue was the negation in the name. I mean there had to be a link to the outside, but we didn't know enough about the Gods so i didn't have anything solid to apply that negation to, which led to a lot of head banging against the wall.
In the second trilogy we are given the information that the God is the sum of all souls. If this information is correct the form of God includes an inside, the physical world, and an outside, the metaphysical/conceptual world. Let's apply a negation to that. The No God, must have a conceptual world inside, and a physical world outside. Indeed the outside of the No God, the carapace has a physical form and interacts with the physical world. This is of course just a guess, but an educated one, i tried to use the clues we are given and combine them with the least amount of complexity.
If the God is the sum of everything, then every soul is not really new. According to the principle of energy conservation the parts that form the entity that is God should always produce the same sum. So souls are in a way recycled through the death and rebirth process. Following this logic, and factoring that according to various characters in the books souls aren't equal, a more important soul represents a bigger part of God. This view is also expressed in the books, so i think it is more or less correct.
The logical leap is that if you want to change the way God works, you have to subvert an important part of him. The number of souls is a factor, but so is the density. Thus, creating the No God using souls makes sense and a soul like Nau-Cayuti's should be considered a prize. Since he was actually there at Golgoterath at that time, it's not that far fetched to assume he was indeed used to that effect.
I've also toyed with the idea that the No God is a trap for the ciphrang (including the hundred) and that's why there are no new births, Yatwer has left the building. Maybe they used an important quantity of souls to draw the hundred in its mini outside and trap them there, negating damnation.
In any case, if God's outside is closed to the world, Nau-Cayuti can't be there. So he has to be somewhere else. It's not such a big of a leap to assume he is inside the No God. The timing fits, but there is a problem as you've pointed out:
The Celmomian prophesy doesn't make sense. We are constantly reminded that when the No God walks the earth, the outside is closed to the world. The Gods are part of the outside, so they shouldn't be able to communicate with Celmomas. This is supported by Maithanet's notion that they can't see the No God. Since the Gods experience all timespace constantly, they don't have access to that specific part of it, so how could the have agency at that time? In the AE, the only God that seems aware of the No God is Ajokli and that's an other inexplicable exception that doesn't fit with anything else we know. The rest of the Gods that have agency in the AE's present, act like they don't know about the No God. So the clues we are given are conflicting with each other, making an accurate prediction impossible. Someone lies, that's for certain.
There is also the matter of the source of the prophesy. Seswatha, if it actually is his heart that the mandate uses for the dreams is completely unreliable. We just can't take his purpose at face value, not with damnation hanging above his neck like an axe. It's interesting to note that real or not, the Seswatha whose heart seeds the dreams has in this way become immortal, avoiding damnation. I don't believe in coincidences ;). On the other hand, the Consult seems to also follow a prophesy. The only common factor i can see between the Consult and the Mandate is they both believe there is a prophesy about a person when the world ends. They obviously disagree about who that person actually is, but this common factor seems to indicate that somewhere down the line there is a single origin.
I also believe the baby is important for reasons i've already explained. He might be the harbinger, he might be Nau-Cayuti reborn, he might be something else entirely, i don't really know. The only thing i am certain of is that he is connected to the second apocalypse.
The rest is just for fun, an attempt to bridge the above with the fact that events repeat themselves in Earwa. there is little point in attempting to debunk or confirm them, because at this time we know jack shit :P. That's why the conversation becomes cyclical. Scott has given us five books full of clues, and we can trust not a word of them.
So if i say that the story is about the God, trying to understand itself, i am not searching for evidence. It's just a baseless opinion. I am sharing it because i think it's interesting, not because it's necessarily true.
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Whoa, I let this thread get away from me. I'll be reading through it but I fear if I wait till the end that I'll forget my thoughts, so I'll just post them as I go.
Starting with
Now what does Celmomas see when he dies?
“They call to me. They say that my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha.”
Notice the they? They can't be from the outside, since it's closed to the world.
I don't agree with this first assumption/conclusions.
They could refer to any number of entities. The man was old and dying, not to mention going into shock. Who knows what he saw.
Anyway, how do you know the outside is shut? There is no indication of this. In fact, I'd argue that there is more evidence that the world remains open. Mainly from the fact that the Inchoroi still war. They still are working towards their goal. If their goal was to achieved they would simply summoning the No-God, they certainly wouldn't have allowed it to take the field and get blown up. I don't claim to know what it was that the King saw, but you cannot rule out any entity form the Outside, or at least you can't do so logically (imo). Hell, he could have still seen any of the 100 if they had avatars living in the World before your so called shutting. Either way, I don't agree at all with your conclusion.
The Prophesy itself give the reader next to nothing.
"An Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" - We know that the Anasurimbor never left, and that they have been in the Three Seas for at least 50+ years. If the end of the world is coming, its not because the Anasurimbor are here.
King also mention that the World dies with Seswatha (more or less). We know that either Seswatha died and the world didn't end, or that he is somehow still 'alive' in such a way that denies the fullfillment of the prophesy. We don't know how this is accomplished, and so we therefore know, again, next to nothing.
He also whines about seeing his son and such. The death thralls of a dying man with lifelong regrets. This hardly points directly to any connection with the NG or the outside.
This Prophesy might be important, but for none of the obvious reasons. With the way agency and belief appear to work in Earwa, any prophesy is likely only as important as the number of people that believe it. I doubt a tiny group of Mandati, and now Swayali, are enough to effect change on this kind of scale.
I'll keep reading and letting you know my contrarian opinions when they arise :). Welcome back, and with such style ;)
EDIT:
I do agree that there might be different prophesies that stem from the same beginning, and even end in the same way but seen from different vatage points. The Inchoroi state that they must keep close tabs on all of the prophesies, even the false ones. I think this is said in a way that points to Mimara being some link to one of the False, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I also believe there is room for many prophesies, Inchoroi, human and Nonmen, that we don't yet know about.
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If you are looking for a more well reasoned post go to the one above you, it explains what i believe and why. The Inchoroi war because they have opposition, Man wants to get rid of the No God and that must not be allowed to happen. Of course, they may be trying to reduce the living population to 144k, that's also a possibility but if the God's can't see the No God, it's also logical to assume that the timespace is unaccessible to them when the No God exists.
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Regarding Mimara guessing correctly about the skin spy:
I think some people, myself included, have been conditioned to look far to closely, to travel too deeply down the rabbit hole. I think it more likely that Mimara's quote there was from the Author to the Reader, just some simple foreshadowing, rather than some crazy prophecy-come-true or an indication of some deep insight into TDTCB. I'm not sure about the timeline here, but have we yet received any other indication that he has been replaced? (references to his inhuman reaction speed, etc.)?
I will also confess that the whole watcher/watched thing goes over my head and I'll not comment on it. Too abstract :P. Also, the entire conversation about Fate/World confuses me so I'll step past that as well :)
One more note: You might have refered to Madness as "you all" and/or "they", and Madness reffered to himself as "us". Either yall are crazy of your forget that we can all speak for ourselves :). Other of the forum have agency here as well!
EDIT:
It appears that I have already posted some of the same stuff as Madness, almost word for word, before I read his comment. Sorry if I repeat stuff. Maybe he was referring to me when he said we? (get out of my head)
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If you are looking for a more well reasoned post go to the one above you, it explains what i believe and why. The Inchoroi war because they have opposition, Man wants to get rid of the No God and that must not be allowed to happen. Of course, they may be trying to reduce the living population to 144k, that's also a possibility but if the God's can't see the No God, it's also logical to assume that the timespace is unaccessible to them when the No God exists.
Like I said I'll keep reading, but I disagree still with the world being shut at that point in the story. I agree that the God's are hardly omniscient and probabaly don't have access many, many things (and would put in that they probably don't know they don't know).
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I don't agree with this first assumption/conclusions.
They could refer to any number of entities. The man was old and dying, not to mention going into shock. Who knows what he saw.
Anyway, how do you know the outside is shut? There is no indication of this. In fact, I'd argue that there is more evidence that the world remains open. Mainly from the fact that the Inchoroi still war. They still are working towards their goal. If their goal was to achieved they would simply summoning the No-God, they certainly wouldn't have allowed it to take the field and get blown up. I don't claim to know what it was that the King saw, but you cannot rule out any entity form the Outside, or at least you can't do so logically (imo). Hell, he could have still seen any of the 100 if they had avatars living in the World before your so called shutting. Either way, I don't agree at all with your conclusion.
There are some indications that the world is shut (i've gathered them in my previous post) but you have a point that they are in no way irrefutable. What used to seal the deal for me was the absence of new births, but Madness's and your input made me see it from a different perspective. I've always thought that the No God is what prevents damnation by sealing the world, but maybe it has a different function. Since we know that the Inchoroi strive to reduce the population to 144k in every world they grace with their presence, we could assume that this is the key to seal the world from the outside and the No God is there to facilitate the process. While the Consult army does a fine job towards that goal, new births could potentially become a problem, so the No God might be just a way to screw Yatwer. This doesn't fit with its name though, and i am OCD about those kind of things. Maybe Scott didn't like the name No-Birth :P.
The Prophesy itself give the reader next to nothing.
"An Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" - We know that the Anasurimbor never left, and that they have been in the Three Seas for at least 50+ years. If the end of the world is coming, its not because the Anasurimbor are here.
King also mention that the World dies with Seswatha (more or less). We know that either Seswatha died and the world didn't end, or that he is somehow still 'alive' in such a way that denies the fullfillment of the prophesy. We don't know how this is accomplished, and so we therefore know, again, next to nothing.
He also whines about seeing his son and such. The death thralls of a dying man with lifelong regrets. This hardly points directly to any connection with the NG or the outside.
The Anasurimbor never physically left, but they retreated from the world, i see this as a metaphor that one of the line will reemerge with real agency at the end of the world.
If the heart in possession of the Mandate is actually Seswatha's then he is still alive and kicking. He talks with Kellhus, he influences the dreams, in short he has more agency than any other character in the books. But this could also be a metaphor, where end represents lethe for Seswatha, or change for the world.
Nau-Cayuti isn't a passive presence in the vision, he is an active participant, it's him that talks to Celmomas about the harbinger. Of course we could assume it's just wishful thinking, but the same goes for the visage of the Gods.
This Prophesy might be important, but for none of the obvious reasons. With the way agency and belief appear to work in Earwa, any prophesy is likely only as important as the number of people that believe it. I doubt a tiny group of Mandati, and now Swayali, are enough to effect change on this kind of scale.
Now, that's not necessary true, it all depends on the source of the prophesy. If it's the Gods, their sum already represents human consciousness, so even if no one knows about it, it has power because it's the product of the collective human will.
Regarding Mimara guessing correctly about the skin spy:
I think some people, myself included, have been conditioned to look far to closely, to travel too deeply down the rabbit hole. I think it more likely that Mimara's quote there was from the Author to the Reader, just some simple foreshadowing, rather than some crazy prophecy-come-true or an indication of some deep insight into TDTCB. I'm not sure about the timeline here, but have we yet received any other indication that he has been replaced? (references to his inhuman reaction speed, etc.)?
Sure, it may very well be that. But the same goes for her comment that Aka's and Esmi's baby was meant to happen. If Scott did it once, why not do it again ;)?
I will also confess that the whole watcher/watched thing goes over my head and I'll not comment on it. Too abstract :P. Also, the entire conversation about Fate/World confuses me so I'll step past that as well :)
Lol, it's not that hard to comprehend, i just did a really bad job presenting it. I will search for a thread about metaphysics and post it there with a better description and examples. If you want to get an idea about the watcher watched paradox, google "schrodinger's cat".
One more note: You might have refered to Madness as "you all" and/or "they", and Madness reffered to himself as "us". Either yall are crazy of your forget that we can all speak for ourselves :). Other of the forum have agency here as well!
Yea, i shouldn't have made such a generalization, i am sorry.
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There are some indications that the world is shut (i've gathered them in my previous post) but you have a point that they are in no way irrefutable. What used to seal the deal for me was the absence of new births, but Madness's and your input made me see it from a different perspective. I've always thought that the No God is what prevents damnation by sealing the world, but maybe it has a different function. Since we know that the Inchoroi strive to reduce the population to 144k in every world they grace with their presence, we could assume that this is the key to seal the world from the outside and the No God is there to facilitate the process. While the Consult army does a fine job towards that goal, new births could potentially become a problem, so the No God might be just a way to screw Yatwer. This doesn't fit with its name though, and i am OCD about those kind of things. Maybe Scott didn't like the name No-Birth :P.
Mog is certainly there to facilitate the closing of the world. I always assumed NG is something like the "missing ingredient", something that the Inchoroi needed to seal away the outside but never where able to create. Something has made Earwa special for them, and the NG has got to be a part of that. The new outside that the Inchoroi are going for probably needs some kind of Deity and that might be that it becomes, I just don't think the outside is sealed out quite yet.
I will also confess that the whole watcher/watched thing goes over my head and I'll not comment on it. Too abstract :P. Also, the entire conversation about Fate/World confuses me so I'll step past that as well :)
Lol, it's not that hard to comprehend, i just did a really bad job presenting it. I will search for a thread about metaphysics and post it there with a better description and examples. If you want to get an idea about the watcher watched paradox, google "schrodinger's cat".
Believe me its not your fault that I don't get it.
One more note: You might have refered to Madness as "you all" and/or "they", and Madness reffered to himself as "us". Either yall are crazy of your forget that we can all speak for ourselves :). Other of the forum have agency here as well!
Yea, i shouldn't have made such a generalization, i am sorry.
I was mostly joking ;)
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I've also toyed with the idea that the No God is a trap for the ciphrang (including the hundred) and that's why there are no new births, Yatwer has left the building. Maybe they used an important quantity of souls to draw the hundred in its mini outside and trap them there, negating damnation.
@ SkiesOfAzel - I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this!
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I've also toyed with the idea that the No God is a trap for the ciphrang (including the hundred) and that's why there are no new births, Yatwer has left the building. Maybe they used an important quantity of souls to draw the hundred in its mini outside and trap them there, negating damnation.
@ SkiesOfAzel - I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this!
There isn't much more to say about it, the Gods/Ciphrang are attracted to souls, so a mini outside foul of souls might work as a trap for them. I mentioned it because it kind of fits the name (the outside is actually inside it) and it's a plausible explanation for the womb plague and the fact that the Gods can't see Mog, but i don't like it :P:
- If that's all it took, there would be no effort to reduce the population, no ciphrang equals no damnation.
- The No God has a consciousnesses and it has been summoned, so it is a single entity that already existed. Since it constantly asks everyone what do they see, it probably lacked identity before the summoning. The only such being i can think of that could potentially fit this state is the Solitary God, but there are other issues with this theory.
I haven't read the books in two years and my memory is really bad, i will have to give them another go at some point to be able to make a more accurate guess.
[EDIT]
I was re reading the part with Mimara's chorae near the end of the JE and i remembered why i thought Mimara knows things she shouldn't. Here is the proof:
She finds herself almost whispering in his ear. "Akka. Listen to me carefully. You remember what you said? About this place... blurring... into the Outside?"
"Yes. The treachery... The betrayal that led to its fall..."
"No. That's not it. It's this place. This very room! It's what they did—the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas... It's what they did to their human slaves!"
Generations bred for the sunless mines. Used up. Cast away like moaning rubbish. Ten thousand years of sightless torment.
She knows this... But how?
"What? What do you mean?" He grimaces in pain and irritation.
This happens when the ghost of the Non-Man King first appears.
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Mimara's perspective throughout Cil Aujis sees things she shouldn't be able to see, both literally out of body experiences and the metaphysical seeing as you mention.
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Mimara's perspective throughout Cil Aujis sees things she shouldn't be able to see, both literally out of body experiences and the metaphysical seeing as you mention.
Yeah, that's why i think anything she says that doesn't seem to have an apparent cause is suspect, in a way it comes from the darkness. Mimara is pregnant with an important soul (a big part of the God). A fetus is a separate creature, but also a part of its mother while still in the womb. The JE is just the expression of that, she shares God's vision, she remembers more than any other being about the true nature of things.
I believe that the present tense in her POV's represents that her perception is influenced by the God, which is aware of all timespace, so there is no past or feature. If you consider God a system, then time itself is the emergent property that expresses the interaction between it's parts.
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Good catch, Alia. That is a line I only noticed after reading WLW. But Esmenet notes that Sarcellus smells of myrrh, I believe, in TDTCB.
Not only that. I did a quick search and the smell of myrrh is also present at Inrau's death and at Esmenet's meeting with Synthese (and that's the one scene that I remembered the most).
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@ SOA - I like the idea of the carapace as a spirit trap. Like you said, no ciphrangs, no damnation. Souls find oblivion in the now empty outside? It seems to fit with the some other bits: what kellhus said he found in the outside (god broken into a million pieces) and what old moe says at the end of TTT (the god sleeps our purpose is to awaken him). If Mog is all of the spirits bound in one, then it is all the fragments of god combined, it awakes, its 'eyes' open and it sees that it needs to be seen. LOL, idk. :)
Inchoroi = Ghost Busters
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@ SOA - I like the idea of the carapace as a spirit trap. Like you said, no ciphrangs, no damnation. Souls find oblivion in the now empty outside? It seems to fit with the some other bits: what kellhus said he found in the outside (god broken into a million pieces) and what old moe says at the end of TTT (the god sleeps our purpose is to awaken him). If Mog is all of the spirits bound in one, then it is all the fragments of god combined, it awakes, its 'eyes' open and it sees that it needs to be seen. LOL, idk. :)
Inchoroi = Ghost Busters
The God of Gods already watches itself through the eyes of every souled creature in Earwa. It is a paradoxical creature, it can watch itself so it knows itself infinitely. Thus it defines itself which is another paradox. The Solitary God has no contact with the world so it lacks identity and fits with the sleeping God idea. Following this reasoning, the No-God could be the imprisoned consciousness of the Solitary God, but then why can it control soulless creatures that aren't a part of its being? Btw, i believe that the Solitary God isn't just the sum of souls, it's also the sum of those souls relations, and the properties of those relations.
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I will try to make a more serious post, attempting to explain parts of my reasoning. I will also try to separate what i actually think is probable from the crackpot theories i do for fun.
Cheers.
Why had Aka to learn now about Nau-Cayuti? He seems to follow his story from conception to "death", breaking every rule about the dreams in the process. It's not about the Heron spear, the narrative surpasses that point and goes on to place him in Golgoterath at the end of his life. And while we don't know why it took the Consult/Inchies so long to build the No God the first time, the second time should be faster. They have the know how, the carapace and no one believes they exist. They seem to be waiting for something.
The most recent point we have from Nau-Cayuti's Dream-life, Shauriatas is literally asking Nau-Cayuti about the Heron Spear. Which would imply that when Shauriatas finds out from Nau-Cayuti, Achamian will know the real world location, and why/if the Consult haven't found it.
Also, there is an inverse relationship between Mekertrig/Shauriatas' knowledge of the Tekne to Aurang/Aurax... the first time around, the No-God resulted from a combination of sorcery/Tekne but Aurang/Aurax brought the Tekne half of the knowledge to the table. So Shauriatas probably has had to spend much, much longer, reverse engineering what they've done to learn Aurang/Aurax portions.
The logical leap is that if you want to change the way God works, you have to subvert an important part of him. The number of souls is a factor, but so is the density. Thus, creating the No God using souls makes sense and a soul like Nau-Cayuti's should be considered a prize. Since he was actually there at Golgoterath at that time, it's not that far fetched to assume he was indeed used to that effect.
We don't know when the Dream in Ch. 1 takes place? And Nau-Cayuti was leading the human resistance... Shauriatas and Consult have just captured him... why do we have to project more onto this prize commentary, specifically?
In any case, if God's outside is closed to the world, Nau-Cayuti can't be there. So he has to be somewhere else. It's not such a big of a leap to assume he is inside the No God. The timing fits, but there is a problem as you've pointed out:
Or the fact that you haven't really explained satisfactorily how/if the No-God actually stops the Gods and Souls Outside from affecting the World?
The Celmomian prophesy doesn't make sense.
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There is also the matter of the source of the prophesy. Seswatha, if it actually is his heart that the mandate uses for the dreams is completely unreliable. We just can't take his purpose at face value, not with damnation hanging above his neck like an axe. It's interesting to note that real or not, the Seswatha whose heart seeds the dreams has in this way become immortal, avoiding damnation. I don't believe in coincidences ;). On the other hand, the Consult seems to also follow a prophesy. The only common factor i can see between the Consult and the Mandate is they both believe there is a prophesy about a person when the world ends. They obviously disagree about who that person actually is, but this common factor seems to indicate that somewhere down the line there is a single origin.
But you've assumed that the False Prophecy is about Mimara specifically, rather than maybe pregnant women in Mimara's line. You also assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World...
I also believe the baby is important for reasons i've already explained. He might be the harbinger, he might be Nau-Cayuti reborn, he might be something else entirely, i don't really know. The only thing i am certain of is that he is connected to the second apocalypse.
Well... strangely enough, you've seeded your own nerdanel. I'm not sure I agree but I know I've voiced the elsewhere for different reasons.
Mimara's stillborn birth resulting from the Judging Eye will be the only live baby born after the No-God walks again.
So if i say that the story is about the God, trying to understand itself, i am not searching for evidence. It's just a baseless opinion. I am sharing it because i think it's interesting, not because it's necessarily true.
Lol - I don't see how this will save you from having to defend your nerdanels? We, the SA noosphere, are the God of Gods of your analogy trying to solve TSA.
Anyway, how do you know the outside is shut? There is no indication of this.
+1
EDIT:
I do agree that there might be different prophesies that stem from the same beginning, and even end in the same way but seen from different vatage points. The Inchoroi state that they must keep close tabs on all of the prophesies, even the false ones. I think this is said in a way that points to Mimara being some link to one of the False, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I also believe there is room for many prophesies, Inchoroi, human and Nonmen, that we don't yet know about.
+1 many more prophecies.
One more note: You might have refered to Madness as "you all" and/or "they", and Madness reffered to himself as "us". Either yall are crazy of your forget that we can all speak for ourselves :). Other of the forum have agency here as well!
Do they Wilshire? When I say we I'm usually referring to arguments or conceptions of speculations that I know aren't mine alone and are shared by others here. Or sometimes I refer to we as readers, or the forum as a whole... a couple ways, I guess, really.
EDIT:
It appears that I have already posted some of the same stuff as Madness, almost word for word, before I read his comment. Sorry if I repeat stuff. Maybe he was referring to me when he said we? (get out of my head)
Lol - you want to be Norton or Pitt?
There are some indications that the world is shut (i've gathered them in my previous post) but you have a point that they are in no way irrefutable. What used to seal the deal for me was the absence of new births, but Madness's and your input made me see it from a different perspective. I've always thought that the No God is what prevents damnation by sealing the world, but maybe it has a different function. Since we know that the Inchoroi strive to reduce the population to 144k in every world they grace with their presence, we could assume that this is the key to seal the world from the outside and the No God is there to facilitate the process. While the Consult army does a fine job towards that goal, new births could potentially become a problem, so the No God might be just a way to screw Yatwer. This doesn't fit with its name though, and i am OCD about those kind of things. Maybe Scott didn't like the name No-Birth :P.
I really don't know that we should trust this 144,000 notation. Where the hell did the Inchoroi even get that from? Maybe that's what they are doing wrong (though, I think we can all safely assume that Earwa is the connection the Outside).
The Anasurimbor never physically left, but they retreated from the world, i see this as a metaphor that one of the line will reemerge with real agency at the end of the world.
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Nau-Cayuti isn't a passive presence in the vision, he is an active participant, it's him that talks to Celmomas about the harbinger. Of course we could assume it's just wishful thinking, but the same goes for the visage of the Gods.
You know, you're forgetting your own Mimara speculation here. Technically, if she is Anasurimbor through Esmenet's matrilineal line, then the Anasurimbor never even retreated.
Also, what about the Dream where young Nau-Cayuti has learned Mimara's name from Seswatha sleeping...?
Regarding Mimara guessing correctly about the skin spy:
I think some people, myself included, have been conditioned to look far to closely, to travel too deeply down the rabbit hole. I think it more likely that Mimara's quote there was from the Author to the Reader, just some simple foreshadowing, rather than some crazy prophecy-come-true or an indication of some deep insight into TDTCB. I'm not sure about the timeline here, but have we yet received any other indication that he has been replaced? (references to his inhuman reaction speed, etc.)?
Sure, it may very well be that. But the same goes for her comment that Aka's and Esmi's baby was meant to happen. If Scott did it once, why not do it again ;)?
Or has he done it at all?
Believe me its not your fault that I don't get it.
+1 - I'm not big on the abstract metaphysics of our world even ;).
I was mostly joking ;)
No joking on the slog.
[EDIT]
I was re reading the part with Mimara's chorae near the end of the JE and i remembered why i thought Mimara knows things she shouldn't. Here is the proof:
She finds herself almost whispering in his ear. "Akka. Listen to me carefully. You remember what you said? About this place... blurring... into the Outside?"
"Yes. The treachery... The betrayal that led to its fall..."
"No. That's not it. It's this place. This very room! It's what they did—the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas... It's what they did to their human slaves!"
Generations bred for the sunless mines. Used up. Cast away like moaning rubbish. Ten thousand years of sightless torment.
She knows this... But how?
"What? What do you mean?" He grimaces in pain and irritation.
This happens when the ghost of the Non-Man King first appears.
Her subliminally knowing that Soma is a skin-spy is a way different kind of knowing something she shouldn't than knowing where a Topoi originates, which seems definitely like it would be in the Judging Eye's ken.
Mimara's perspective throughout Cil Aujis sees things she shouldn't be able to see, both literally out of body experiences and the metaphysical seeing as you mention.
Please, elaborate.
Good catch, Alia. That is a line I only noticed after reading WLW. But Esmenet notes that Sarcellus smells of myrrh, I believe, in TDTCB.
Not only that. I did a quick search and the smell of myrrh is also present at Inrau's death and at Esmenet's meeting with Synthese (and that's the one scene that I remembered the most).
I'm sure Bakker's laced them errywhere :).
@ SOA - I like the idea of the carapace as a spirit trap. Like you said, no ciphrangs, no damnation. Souls find oblivion in the now empty outside? It seems to fit with the some other bits: what kellhus said he found in the outside (god broken into a million pieces) and what old moe says at the end of TTT (the god sleeps our purpose is to awaken him). If Mog is all of the spirits bound in one, then it is all the fragments of god combined, it awakes, its 'eyes' open and it sees that it needs to be seen. LOL, idk. :)
Inchoroi = Ghost Busters
The God of Gods already watches itself through the eyes of every souled creature in Earwa. It is a paradoxical creature, it can watch itself so it knows itself infinitely. Thus it defines itself which is another paradox. The Solitary God has no contact with the world so it lacks identity and fits with the sleeping God idea. Following this reasoning, the No-God could be the imprisoned consciousness of the Solitary God, but then why can it control soulless creatures that aren't a part of its being? Btw, i believe that the Solitary God isn't just the sum of souls, it's also the sum of those souls relations, and the properties of those relations.
Really wish FB was here for you. You'll find his posts. You two read almost identical sometimes.
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The most recent point we have from Nau-Cayuti's Dream-life, Shauriatas is literally asking Nau-Cayuti about the Heron Spear. Which would imply that when Shauriatas finds out from Nau-Cayuti, Achamian will know the real world location, and why/if the Consult haven't found it.
Also, there is an inverse relationship between Mekertrig/Shauriatas' knowledge of the Tekne to Aurang/Aurax... the first time around, the No-God resulted from a combination of sorcery/Tekne but Aurang/Aurax brought the Tekne half of the knowledge to the table. So Shauriatas probably has had to spend much, much longer, reverse engineering what they've done to learn Aurang/Aurax portions.
It's simply impossible for Nau-Cayuti to know anything useful about the Heron Spear at this time. The Heron Spear went missing when he was already dead or somewhere else. The persons closest to it at the time were Anaxophus V and Seswatha.
The composition of the Consult has remained largely the same for the past 3000 years. The Inchoroi twins, the Mangaeka immortals and the Nonmen erratics. So i don't see how they would have to reverse engineer anything, unless you imply that the Inchoroi also loose their memories due to their agelessness, which is something i am not at all convinced with.
We don't know when the Dream in Ch. 1 takes place? And Nau-Cayuti was leading the human resistance... Shauriatas and Consult have just captured him... why do we have to project more onto this prize commentary, specifically?
I just used the same word, Nau-Cayuti is a world soul, he was a very important part of history, he is a bigger part of God than the common mortal.
But you've assumed that the False Prophecy is about Mimara specifically, rather than maybe pregnant women in Mimara's line. You also assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World...
No, i've assumed there are various prophesies that are just interpretations of the original. When i wrote the original post about the prophesy i falsely remembered that initially the prophesy was given to the reader directly, like the Ishual part in the Intro of the DTCB, but i rechecked it and realized i was mistaken. I am not convinced there is a completely accurate version of the original prophecy, just different variations of it. But there is a common factor that has to do with a certain line. Mimara doesn't have to be the subject of prophecy, belonging to that line is enough for the Consult to keep her in check. The fact that Mimara has the JE is what makes think she may be the fulfillment of the prophesy, her or her child.
And about the End of the world, an apocalypse, depending on how far it reaches can be a complete reset on civilization and beliefs. The world doesn't have to end in a material sense for that part to be correct.
Well... strangely enough, you've seeded your own nerdanel. I'm not sure I agree but I know I've voiced the elsewhere for different reasons.
Mimara's stillborn birth resulting from the Judging Eye will be the only live baby born after the No-God walks again.
I certainly hope you are right, because i fear there will be a more sinister conclusion to this part of the story.
Lol - I don't see how this will save you from having to defend your nerdanels? We, the SA noosphere, are the God of Gods of your analogy trying to solve TSA.
I don't have an issue defending them, back and forth like this stimulates the imagination, enabling us to come up with even more preposterous stuff. I am just pointing out that there is too much ambiguity in the books to allow the formulation of definitive conclusions.
Or the fact that you haven't really explained satisfactorily how/if the No-God actually stops the Gods and Souls Outside from affecting the World?
And that's what i was talking about. I have already pointed out what led me to this assumption. I still think it's probable, but there are also indications that it isn't so. Hopefully we will know when the UC gets released.
I really don't know that we should trust this 144,000 notation. Where the hell did the Inchoroi even get that from? Maybe that's what they are doing wrong (though, I think we can all safely assume that Earwa is the connection the Outside).
You might be right about the true significance of the number, what i find interesting though is that the same number is a part of an Earwan legend ;).
You know, you're forgetting your own Mimara speculation here. Technically, if she is Anasurimbor through Esmenet's matrilineal line, then the Anasurimbor never even retreated.
Also, what about the Dream where young Nau-Cayuti has learned Mimara's name from Seswatha sleeping...?
Of course they had retreated. They were kings, they had the power to shape the future. If Esmenet is indeed a descendant of that line, she is the first to be able to influence events in two thousand years. The same goes for Mimara.
The dreams do that blending with the current time line more than once. It might be Aka's consciousnesses that causes it, it might be Seswatha's, it might even be a short of time bending. This along with the Keelhus/Seswatha conversation are like itches i can't scratch.
+1 - I'm not big on the abstract metaphysics of our world even ;).
I decided to use the human body as a way to help visualize it, i hope the result was accessible.
Her subliminally knowing that Soma is a skin-spy is a way different kind of knowing something she shouldn't than knowing where a Topoi originates, which seems definitely like it would be in the Judging Eye's ken.
One of the central themes of the book is that in Earwa the darkness that comes before isn't just the human subconscious. There is outside influence with its own purpose, and Mimara is connected to the outside through fiber optics :P. The only difference i see between those two cases is that with Soma she didn't have to understand her belief in order to benefit from it, while in the second case she had, so her knowledge couldn't remain in her subconscious. I could produce more insights by Mimara that defy causality but i'd have to re read the JE and the WLW, and right now i don't have the time. There is also little point to it, my initial argument was that since Mimara undeniably has that trait, every one of her comments that seems out of place is suspect.
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It's simply impossible for Nau-Cayuti to know anything useful about the Heron Spear at this time. The Heron Spear went missing when he was already dead or somewhere else. The persons closest to it at the time were Anaxophus V and Seswatha.
You're mixing up the probable timelines (probable because both the Dreams and the Glossary are suspect). Nau-Cayuti and Seswatha get the Heron Spear back from Golgotterath before Ieva "poisons" Nau-Cayuti and he's taken back to Golgotterath. The Dream from the Ch. 1 excerpt seems to take before the rise of the No-God. The Heron Spear isn't lost til the fall of Tryse where Anaxophus' Knights allegedly gets the Spear and keeps it secret.
So I'm fairly sure that Nau-Cayuti is being interrogated for the location of the Heron Spear that he and Seswatha recently stole from Golgotterath (hence, the line where Aurang says to Nau-Cayuti that none escape Golgotterath, if I remember that right) - and, you know, I really assumed that Nau-Cayuti would crack. Maybe Shauriatas learns nothing from the Prince.
The composition of the Consult has remained largely the same for the past 3000 years. The Inchoroi twins, the Mangaeka immortals and the Nonmen erratics. So i don't see how they would have to reverse engineer anything, unless you imply that the Inchoroi also loose their memories due to their agelessness, which is something i am not at all convinced with.
I'll have to find the quote for you (unless Curethan cares to pop in and do so) but Bakker suggested on ZTS that the Inchoroi are losing knowledge of their past in some capacity that may or may not be similar to the Nonmen.
I just used the same word, Nau-Cayuti is a world soul, he was a very important part of history, he is a bigger part of God than the common mortal.
All truth as we know it... but it's how you use the word to imply your nerdanel that I'm taking issue with?
But you've assumed that the False Prophecy is about Mimara specifically, rather than maybe pregnant women in Mimara's line. You also assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World...
No, i've assumed there are various prophesies that are just interpretations of the original. When i wrote the original post about the prophesy i falsely remembered that initially the prophesy was given to the reader directly, like the Ishual part in the Intro of the DTCB, but i rechecked it and realized i was mistaken. I am not convinced there is a completely accurate version of the original prophecy, just different variations of it. But there is a common factor that has to do with a certain line. Mimara doesn't have to be the subject of prophecy, belonging to that line is enough for the Consult to keep her in check. The fact that Mimara has the JE is what makes think she may be the fulfillment of the prophesy, her or her child.
And about the End of the world, an apocalypse, depending on how far it reaches can be a complete reset on civilization and beliefs. The world doesn't have to end in a material sense for that part to be correct.
Sorry... I guess I should have laid that out better. You "assume there are various prophesies that are just interpretations of the original." I had realized this and thus it follows that you must also assume that the False Prophecy is about Mimara (who you believe to be an Anasurimbor - a necessary antecedent to the False Prophecy mirroring the first) and you assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World (metaphorical or otherwise) (the other requisite truth from the Celmomian, what you're calling the original, Prophecy).
I am just pointing out that there is too much ambiguity in the books to allow the formulation of definitive conclusions.
I disagree? Maybe for the formulation of definitive conclusions by one person alone.
Hopefully we will know when the UC gets released.
+1
I really don't know that we should trust this 144,000 notation. Where the hell did the Inchoroi even get that from? Maybe that's what they are doing wrong (though, I think we can all safely assume that Earwa is the connection the Outside).
You might be right about the true significance of the number, what i find interesting though is that the same number is a part of an Earwan legend ;).
I had suggested upthread that it is part of human legend because the Inchoroi version of the Myth of 144,000 has been digested by humans across the histories from their interaction with the Inchoroi.
Of course they had retreated. They were kings, they had the power to shape the future. If Esmenet is indeed a descendant of that line, she is the first to be able to influence events in two thousand years. The same goes for Mimara.
Makes sense.
The dreams do that blending with the current time line more than once. It might be Aka's consciousnesses that causes it, it might be Seswatha's, it might even be a short of time bending. This along with the Keelhus/Seswatha conversation are like itches i can't scratch.
The only other time I can think of is when the No-God calls Achamian by name in TTT? Anymore you know of?
Also, what the about the fact that Achamian Dreams a sleeping Nau-Cayuti's perspective (perhaps, he essentially has the ability to use a soul like Kellhus uses fires with the Seeing-Flame)?
+1 - I'm not big on the abstract metaphysics of our world even ;).
I decided to use the human body as a way to help visualize it, i hope the result was accessible.
Heh... honestly, the metaphysical content just doesn't stoke my fire.
Her subliminally knowing that Soma is a skin-spy is a way different kind of knowing something she shouldn't than knowing where a Topoi originates, which seems definitely like it would be in the Judging Eye's ken.
One of the central themes of the book is that in Earwa the darkness that comes before isn't just the human subconscious. There is outside influence with its own purpose, and Mimara is connected to the outside through fiber optics :P. The only difference i see between those two cases is that with Soma she didn't have to understand her belief in order to benefit from it, while in the second case she had, so her knowledge couldn't remain in her subconscious. I could produce more insights by Mimara that defy causality but i'd have to re read the JE and the WLW, and right now i don't have the time. There is also little point to it, my initial argument was that since Mimara undeniably has that trait, every one of her comments that seems out of place is suspect.
Onkis specifically is the Goddess of the Darkness That Comes Before...