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Messages - SuJuroit

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

« on: March 16, 2018, 04:22:06 pm »

Quote from: SmilerLoki on March 16, 2018, 03:47:21 pm

Quote from: SuJuroit on March 16, 2018, 03:32:32 pm
I question the assumption that the No-God is non-conscious
This is not an assumption:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1755.msg27801#msg27801

You would need to read that entire topic, though. But it's small.

Quote from: SuJuroit on March 16, 2018, 03:32:32 pm
or wholly lacking self-awareness.
This is part of the premise of the philosophical zombie thought experiments.

I'm increasingly starting to disregard Bakker's proclamations regarding his work. Anyway, if the No-God is unaware and unconscious, then whence its questioning? I mean sure, I could program my computer to periodically "ask" the same questions asked by the No-God, and that wouldn't mean my computer has consciousness or self-awareness, but to claim that's what's going on with the No-God is simply... lame. Perhaps the soul within the No-God is a separate entity from the No-God? I think I like that interpretation best of all.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

« on: March 16, 2018, 03:32:32 pm »

I question the assumption that the No-God is non-conscious or wholly lacking self-awareness. It's aware of its own existence, asks questions about its existence, and even uses 1st person pronouns. I think rather that the No-God is blind to itself, but is not blind to its blindness, because why else with ALL THE QUESTIONS?

For all we know, the "voice" of the No-God is simply the desperate vocalizations of a trapped soul, stuck in a box, literally and metaphysically blind to its surroundings and actions. Perhaps the soul is merely the engine, the animus, necessary to power up the Object, but once the Object is powered and the No-God is operational, it's merely along for the ride.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory

« on: March 09, 2018, 06:15:52 pm »

As others have said, in Earwa what comes after determines what comes before AND the gods exist outside of time. So it's entirely possible that Ajokli was "born" when Cnaiur walked into the whirlwind. Cnaiur certainly had enough hatred to fit the bill as the Prince of Hate, although the trickster aspect seems lacking. Still, I find it quite plausible. Especially when you consider the priesthood of Ajokli deemed murder to be holy. That sounds familiar...

Insofar as Ajokli being "different" from other gods, that's because he has access to a reverse prophet; Kellhus. Kellhus brings him news from the Inward, and that allows him to see what the other gods can't see, know what they can't know.

The Great Ordeal / Re: Timing the incident between Theliopa and Inrilatas?

« on: February 28, 2018, 06:42:24 pm »

I have to assume that non-Few Serwa would reach the same conclusion as canon Serwa; Father is smarter and stronger so I should make myself useful to him and his TTT.

Tough to say what Few-Theli would be, but since sorcerers that can use meta-gnostic cants are pretty much the most valuable military asset imaginable, I'm sure Kellhus would have found a role for her in the Ordeal.

The Great Ordeal / Re: Timing the incident between Theliopa and Inrilatas?

« on: February 27, 2018, 07:25:21 pm »

Well, Serwa also had more balance than Theli, and didn't suffer from the sort of eccentricities that affected her sister. She was also constantly described as being incredibly beautiful, and we know from the 1st series Kellhus found that useful in Serwe (we also know he had no compunctions using that beauty for his own ends). So even if she wasn't one of the Few, I could see Serwa being of more use to Kellhus than Theli. But I absolutely agree that if Theli was one of the Few she'd have been treated very differently, ditto if Serwa wasn't one of the Few.

The Great Ordeal / Re: Timing the incident between Theliopa and Inrilatas?

« on: February 27, 2018, 04:39:57 pm »

Quote from: Wilshire on February 27, 2018, 03:16:59 pm

It definitely seems like a Kellhus thing to do - letting the abuse continue and not doing anything about it until it became inconvenient for him. Maybe thinking that one or the other would break in a useful way, or kill the other and be done with it. Since neither happened, or since it was clear Theli could be useful and Inrilatas (btw Inri-latas ... Inri Sejenus ...) would not grow out of his madness.

As Moenghus Jr. was a dog for the other siblings to sharpen their claws on, Theli was the sacrificial lamb for the alter of Inrilatas. He had such promise, and another strong son would have been very desierable. Alas, not to be.

Yeah, that's brutal, but very much in character for Kellhus. Theli was smart, but as a female and not one of the Few (plus with her... issues) she was of limited utility to him. I could easily see him letting all sorts of abuse occur if he thought it could lead to Inrilatas, with his vast potential, becoming a useful tool. Sometimes you have to break a tool to craft an even more useful tool. The Shortest Path.

The Unholy Consult / Re: How tall are the Horns?

« on: February 15, 2018, 07:05:53 pm »

Quote from: H on February 14, 2018, 02:38:38 pm

I see what you are saying. I think in the long run, it's possible, but probably not really overall worth the effort it would require.

It's quicker to just dupe a bunch of people into killing the ones you don't agree with or are in your way.

I agree with this. While I think Kellhus COULD probably combine CoC with Dunyainic dicketry to create some truly powerful effects in people, it just seems unnecessarily complex. Kellhus can already extract ANY sacrifice from somebody with mere words. He discovered that in Atrithau before he even met Cnaiur. Only really crazy and/or deeply fucked up personalities seem to be able to resist him (Cnaiur, Conphas), and his preferred way of dealing with them seemed to be "have them killed".

The Unholy Consult / Re: Is Earwa doomed?

« on: October 26, 2017, 03:34:57 pm »

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The Gods atemporal perspective makes them blind to their own end and because they are blind to the Consult, the Consult is their end.

This concept has caused me no small confusion. While the gods are blind to the Consult, they're not blind to themselves. And if they perceive all of time at once, then they should be able to see their end simply because their ability to perceive time stops at that point.

I've always liked the analogy that for the Hundred, time and the Inward is like a book. They can look at any page at any time and see what takes place on that page, and they can skip around if they like, but the book and the events in it don't change unless the Hundred are willing to expend themselves to make changes, such as creating WLWs or something. So if at some point they flip far enough forward that they no longer appear, or they can't apprehend anything at all, then they'd know that they themselves end at that point.

The Unholy Consult / Re: How tall are the Horns?

« on: September 27, 2017, 07:04:32 pm »

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One might be able to extrapolate that the immunity to sorcerous Cants might cancel out any ongoing Cants.

Right. In the way that chorae can cancel Wards.

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But it's unclear if Compulsion would be an ongoing Cant instead of a one-time alteration.

There's so much about Compulsion that RSB doesn't get into. Is it ongoing, requiring "maintenance" on the part of the sorcerer, sort of like a Ward or a Surrilec (sp?) Point or is it a one-time deal? Does it leave a Mark on the person Compulsed? Based on the reactions of the people we've seen victimized by them, Xinemus and Moenghus Jr., my personal take is that while the Cants can have lingering psychological aftereffects, the actual compulsion is ongoing and requires a certain amount of maintenance on the part of the sorcerer, which could then be broken by the touch of a chorae.

If Compulsion was a one-shot deal that left no Mark and couldn't be removed with the touch of a chorae, there's little reason to believe Sorcerers wouldn't rule the entire Three Seas.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Kellhus, Kelmomas and the Narindar

« on: September 26, 2017, 07:37:54 pm »

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With the Narindar are they fated to be successful unless some interference by the No-God?

Not necessarily. Narindari are cultic assassins. As per the Glossary, some of them (particular Ajokli's) may be granted The Unerring Grace, but it's not absolute and can come and go. Yatwer's Narindari, White Luck Warriors, possess absolute Unerring Grace to the degree that you describe above. Only be rewriting reality (and the gods themselves) can a White Luck Warrior fail.

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After thinking about Kellhus and the Narindar it seems that in order for him to survive both of the assassinations, he has to ultimately lose in his attempt to prevent the No-God. To prevent the No-God after the fact would cause a paradox in that he would not have had Kelmomas to prevent either assassination attempt from being successful.

Good observation, and I agree. Kellhus indicates as much when he states that at some point the Consult MUST succeed and the No-God MUST be reborn. However...

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Would Kellhus potentially had the knowledge that in order to survive he needed to have some form of contact with the No-God at both junctions, and that the No-God had to be revived? Or is this attributing a greater level of foresight than Kellhus would have possessed. It would seem to explain why he would go back to Mommen to rescue Kelmomas, and why he let him live as he would need him to become the No-God in order to save his past self. Also it would add further reason to why he has him in such a prominent position when Sorweel makes his attempt, possibly he was aware of the risk at that moment.

I don't think so. Kellhus was fooled by Kelmomas. He says as much, but more importantly, his actions bear that out. He doesn't waste the Strength on cracked bowls. If he knew that Kelmomas was as crazy and dangerous as he was, he would have acted on that, as he did with Inrilatus. In short, Kellhus was saved from the White Luck Warriors through luck, not skill or foresight.

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I can't quite reconcile it with how he met his end, except the fact he would know he has to lose at that point and Kelmomas has to be used for the No-God. It also relies on him having knowledge of Kelmomas role as the No-God prior to the first assassination attempt in order for him to go back to Mommen in the first place.

I don't think there's any textual evidence supporting Kellhus knowing that. He wanted to kill Kelmomas and almost certainly would have if Esmenet had gone along, but not because he knew or suspected Kelmomas was the No-God. Simply because he was a dangerous wild card.

The Unholy Consult / Re: How tall are the Horns?

« on: September 26, 2017, 05:57:55 pm »

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Though, now that you mention that - who might have Kellhus Compelled in his twenty years?!

Now THAT's a really interesting question. Heck, the entire concept of the Cants of Compulsion is really interesting. I imagine they're not constantly and pervasively used in the pre-Kellhus Three Seas simply because most people worth Compelling would have access to a chorae. Plus sorcerors need to keep a low profile in most nations other than High Ainon. Trying to Compel powerful political, religious or economic players would be extremely risky.

But Kellhus? He's all about the Shortest Path, and as the Aspect Emperor, he'd have the institutional might to do it and run roughshod over anybody who dared complain. But on the other hand, the whole point of overwhelming institutional power is that you don't HAVE to force recalcitrant individuals to believe. Fear and social pressure will keep people in line. Plus anybody that's Compelled could be freed of Compulsion by the touch of a chorae; that's risky. Perhaps it'd be safer for Kellhus to simply use his Dunyain powers of manipulation to "make them love"; requires a bit more effort on his part, but gets a much more robust, permanant result, and Kellhus would only need to bother with really key players. The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that Kellhus didn't rely heavily on Cants of Compulsion at all after becoming Aspect Emperor.

The Unholy Consult / Re: How tall are the Horns?

« on: September 22, 2017, 08:23:03 pm »

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Also, randomly, why did Aurax open the door from the Vigil into the Golden Room? Is it as simple as death = damnation and he would do anything to live longer even though he was 99.999999999% certain Kellhus would kill him the second the door opened?

I think that's correct, yes. Remember Shaeonanra's perspective from the False Sun after being exposed to the Inverse Fire; NOTHING is worse than death, because death means damnation.

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Also, randomly, why did the dunsult make a seemingly legit effort to kill Kellhus when as far as we know they also needed him to be TNG (at least until the last 20+ hours when Kel came into their clutches)? They need TNG to close off the world and stave off damnation and they they are going around trying to kill their shot at Resumption.

As others have said, I don't think they really were trying to kill Kellhus directly until he rebuffed their attempts to get him on board. That said, I don't think the Dunsult would have been particularly broken up over his death; there are other Anasurimbors and Kellhus represented the only significant direct threat to them.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Mutilated "Art"

« on: September 20, 2017, 06:50:49 pm »

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I think he meant why Scranc, Bashrag, and Wracu - hence the note of beyond the Inchoroi.

Hrm, that's not how I read it. Anyway, Bashrags and Wracu don't seem to be obsessed with sex or rape, Skuthula's rather... odd dialogue notwithstanding. Sranc and Skinspies certainly, but I'm guessing that's a relic of "when you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail" on the Inchoroi's part. They're obsessed with rape and they've managed to destroy countless worlds. Being obsessed with rape works, makes you really good at genociding! Of COURSE any weapon races we create should be as rapey as we are! And FFS Aurang, would it kill you to put some bigger phalluses on those Skinspies?

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They did use nukes, per TUC glossary against Nonmen. And they did use disease per the Womb Plague. But at a certain point, they could just fleshcraft beings. And the best for them were beings already designed to want to kill. Even lust for it.

Yup. If you're creating disposable weapon races to release upon the world, makes sense that they're into violence. Peaceful tribes of sranc doing their own thing in the hinterlands aren't of any use to anybody.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Mutilated "Art"

« on: September 20, 2017, 05:48:23 pm »

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Could the emotional state of the victims have a role in the Apocalypse successfully shutting off the outside? Would help explain my old "why rape monsters, specifically" query if so. (I know Bakker's explained his authorial motives there, but as yet there's no in-universe reason beyond the Inchoroi being incredibly carnally inclined.)

But this was explained when Kellhus entered the Ark. Because the Progenitors wanted their weapon race to heap sin upon themselves, feel compelled to do so, to guarantee their Damnation. Which is then handily viewed in the Inverse Fire and motivates them to action. By giving the Inchoroi souls and an overwhelming compulsion to act in ways that guarantee their Damnation, the Progenitors need never fear that their servants will stray or lose their purpose. At least not so long as the Inverse Fire is around to goad them into action.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang

« on: September 14, 2017, 06:11:01 pm »

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The others I think did some pretty heavy damage to the defences and we're destroyed in the process. It just happened off screen.

Yeah. With the exception of Kakaliol, all the other ciphrang we've seen summoned into the Inward and fight on camera were, at best, a match for a single skilled Gnostic sorcerer. Achamian beats one down and battles a second to, essentially, a draw (although it probably could have killed him if that's what Iyokus really wanted). Maybe the Daimotic sorcerers upped their game after Kellhus became Aspect Emperor? We certainly never saw anything as powerful as Kakaliol in the first trilogy.

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